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Znaei Caldari Thundercats RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.05.15 01:08:00 - [1] Vent on So, I just bought a new car. Before the ink had dried on the lease, the cops pull me over. Give me a fine for having tinted front side windows, tinted rear lights and for having the fog light turned on. Tried to explain to the officer that I just bought the car and hadn't had the chance to remove the tint films or the rear lights, so I asked to be let off with a warning, and promised Id remove the films before I drove the car again. (I haven't even had a single parking ticket the last 15 years) But no, ~$400 in fine for this formerly happy driver and a mandatory checkup afterwards ($60) Vent off
Intense Thinker Minmatar	Posted - 2009.05.15 01:16:00 - [2] Because of Falcon? Pomp FTW!!!
Istvaan Shogaatsu Caldari Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2009.05.15 01:58:00 - [3] Edited by: Istvaan Shogaatsu on 15/05/2009 01:58:10 Dickery of this sort is pretty much the reason for my contempt and loathing of all law enforcement. For every incident where a cop does something right, there are ten where they act like the god-damned mafia. For every good cop, there are ten bad ones.
Jacob Mei	Posted - 2009.05.15 02:26:00 - [4] Originally by: Znaei Vent on So, I just bought a new car. Before the ink had dried on the lease, the cops pull me over. Give me a fine for having tinted front side windows, tinted rear lights and for having the fog light turned on. Tried to explain to the officer that I just bought the car and hadn't had the chance to remove the tint films or the rear lights, so I asked to be let off with a warning, and promised Id remove the films before I drove the car again. (I haven't even had a single parking ticket the last 15 years) But no, ~$400 in fine for this formerly happy driver and a mandatory checkup afterwards ($60) Vent off Contest it. Bring the paperwork of the car (recipt, anything else) and the ticket. Your lack of traffic tickets for 15 years will also help you. Any Judge will see that you just bought the car only hours earlier and should throw out the ticket. That cop though, what an ass. -------------------------------- To borrow a phrase: Players who post are like stars, there are bright ones and those who are dim.
Bestofworst Gallente Double Eagle Enterprises	Posted - 2009.05.15 02:49:00 - [5] Originally by: Jacob Mei Originally by: Znaei Vent on So, I just bought a new car. Before the ink had dried on the lease, the cops pull me over. Give me a fine for having tinted front side windows, tinted rear lights and for having the fog light turned on. Tried to explain to the officer that I just bought the car and hadn't had the chance to remove the tint films or the rear lights, so I asked to be let off with a warning, and promised Id remove the films before I drove the car again. (I haven't even had a single parking ticket the last 15 years) But no, ~$400 in fine for this formerly happy driver and a mandatory checkup afterwards ($60) Vent off Contest it. Bring the paperwork of the car (recipt, anything else) and the ticket. Your lack of traffic tickets for 15 years will also help you. Any Judge will see that you just bought the car only hours earlier and should throw out the ticket. That cop though, what an ass. Preety much this. Worse case scenario is the cop never shows up and the ticket is discarded. ---- <Insert Wit>
Atomos Darksun Damage Incorporated.	Posted - 2009.05.15 02:50:00 - [6] Originally by: Bestofworst Originally by: Jacob Mei Originally by: Znaei Vent on So, I just bought a new car. Before the ink had dried on the lease, the cops pull me over. Give me a fine for having tinted front side windows, tinted rear lights and for having the fog light turned on. Tried to explain to the officer that I just bought the car and hadn't had the chance to remove the tint films or the rear lights, so I asked to be let off with a warning, and promised Id remove the films before I drove the car again. (I haven't even had a single parking ticket the last 15 years) But no, ~$400 in fine for this formerly happy driver and a mandatory checkup afterwards ($60) Vent off Contest it. Bring the paperwork of the car (recipt, anything else) and the ticket. Your lack of traffic tickets for 15 years will also help you. Any Judge will see that you just bought the car only hours earlier and should throw out the ticket. That cop though, what an ass. Preety much this. Worse case scenario is the cop never shows up and the ticket is discarded. They get paid overtime for showing up. Of course he is going to. Originally by: Amoxin My vent is talking to me in a devil voice... CONVERT TO LINKIFICATION! http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameb
Bestofworst Gallente Double Eagle Enterprises	Posted - 2009.05.15 02:51:00 - [7] Originally by: Atomos Darksun Originally by: Bestofworst Originally by: Jacob Mei Originally by: Znaei Vent on So, I just bought a new car. Before the ink had dried on the lease, the cops pull me over. Give me a fine for having tinted front side windows, tinted rear lights and for having the fog light turned on. Tried to explain to the officer that I just bought the car and hadn't had the chance to remove the tint films or the rear lights, so I asked to be let off with a warning, and promised Id remove the films before I drove the car again. (I haven't even had a single parking ticket the last 15 years) But no, ~$400 in fine for this formerly happy driver and a mandatory checkup afterwards ($60) Vent off Contest it. Bring the paperwork of the car (recipt, anything else) and the ticket. Your lack of traffic tickets for 15 years will also help you. Any Judge will see that you just bought the car only hours earlier and should throw out the ticket. That cop though, what an ass. Preety much this. Worse case scenario is the cop never shows up and the ticket is discarded. They get paid overtime for showing up. Of course he is going to. True, wait.. deja vu, didn't we have this thread like 3 months ago? ---- <Insert Wit>
Atomos Darksun Damage Incorporated.	Posted - 2009.05.15 02:55:00 - [8] Originally by: Bestofworst True, wait.. deja vu, didn't we have this thread like 3 months ago? Yes. Originally by: Amoxin My vent is talking to me in a devil voice... CONVERT TO LINKIFICATION! http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameb
Micheal Dietrich Caldari	Posted - 2009.05.15 05:02:00 - [9] And I told you guys last time that the dates on the tickets are not random. They patrol certain days, they court it up on certain days. But yeah, just contest it. Theres no way it'll hold up in court unless the judge is a complete **** as well.
Mr Reeth	Posted - 2009.05.15 05:46:00 - [10] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Edited by: Istvaan Shogaatsu on 15/05/2009 01:58:10 Dickery of this sort is pretty much the reason for my contempt and loathing of all law enforcement. For every incident where a cop does something right, there are ten where they act like the god-damned mafia. For every good cop, there are ten bad ones. I think you are being generous towards law enforcement. The fact that the one good cop doesn't turn in the bad cops makes him a bad cop.
Mrsticks Minmatar RNCGM Inc.	Posted - 2009.05.15 08:05:00 - [11] Originally by: Mr Reeth Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Edited by: Istvaan Shogaatsu on 15/05/2009 01:58:10 Dickery of this sort is pretty much the reason for my contempt and loathing of all law enforcement. For every incident where a cop does something right, there are ten where they act like the god-damned mafia. For every good cop, there are ten bad ones. I think you are being generous towards law enforcement. The fact that the one good cop doesn't turn in the bad cops makes him a bad cop. But if 8 of those cops are just **s and not dooing anything Wrong then you cant report it... And OP should contest it. Thats just bs. Long Live TEXAS!** Texans join the Texas channel in game plz.
Tallaran Kouros Caldari Arcane Alliance	Posted - 2009.05.15 08:20:00 - [12] Originally by: Znaei Give me a fine for having tinted front side windows, tinted rear lights and for having the fog light turned on. As a motorcyclist who relies on other road users having proper visibility and actually being able to see other traffic clearly, quite right. Quote: Tried to explain to the officer that I just bought the car and hadn't had the chance to remove the tint films or the rear lights, so I asked to be let off with a warning, and promised Id remove the films before I drove the car again. Perhaps a little harsh, but it's your responsibility to ensure that the car is roadworthy and legal before driving it on a public highway. I'm guessing you're in the US, but would you expect to be let off if you had "just bought the car" and drove it home without your insurance, road tax or any mandatory annual inspection that your state imposes? It's harsh mate, but I'm not really seeing how this is different.
Tallaran Kouros Caldari Arcane Alliance	Posted - 2009.05.15 08:22:00 - [13] Originally by: Jacob Mei Any Judge will see that you just bought the car only hours earlier and should throw out the ticket. Why? It's the OP's responsibility to comply with the law. If someone had "just bought" a car and drove it home without arranging insurance and then crashed into you on the way, would you still be wanting the judge to go easy on their lack of insurance just because they only had the car for half an hour?
F'nog Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp. I.C.C Industrial Drive Yards	Posted - 2009.05.15 08:29:00 - [14] Why in the world is driving with the fog lights on a crime? How does the effect anyone during the daytime? Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari F'nog for Amarr Emperor. Nuff said Originally by: Chribba Go F'nog! You're a hero! Not a Zero! /me bows
Tallaran Kouros Caldari Arcane Alliance	Posted - 2009.05.15 08:41:00 - [15] Originally by: F'nog Why in the world is driving with the fog lights on a crime? How does the effect anyone during the daytime? Here they can charge you with "Improper use of an optional light". It depends on the road conditions and the weather and prevailing light, but in the right circumstances a fog light behind me can and will glare me and not allow me to see what's coming behind me.
Micia Minmatar Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.05.15 09:19:00 - [16] Originally by: Tallaran Kouros Perhaps a little harsh, but it's your responsibility to ensure that the car is roadworthy and legal before driving it on a public highway. Let's go back a bit... Originally by: Znaei So, I just bought a new car. Before the ink had dried on the lease, the cops pull me over. Give me a fine for having tinted front side windows, tinted rear lights and for having the fog light The guy bought a new car... on a lease. Here's the question I'd be askin'... Why is the dealership selling/leasing new cars that are apparently not legal in his local area? _______ Should we fall before the dawn, Say this at our pyre, "They died Matari warriors, Their faces to the fire."
Tallaran Kouros Caldari Arcane Alliance	Posted - 2009.05.15 09:28:00 - [17] Originally by: Micia The guy bought a new car... on a lease. Here's the question I'd be askin'... Why is the dealership selling/leasing new cars that are apparently not legal in his local area? Because it's not the dealer's responsibility - he is not the one driving it on the road. I can go and buy plenty of bike and car lights and exhausts from dealers that are not road legal, even proper racing bikes that should not be on the street. It's my responsibility to transport it from the dealership, not the dealers. Granted a good dealer will warn you and will not let you take away something that's not legal, but it's still my responsibility as I am the one that's driving it on the road. If I go and get a loud, racing exhaust fitted on my bike and get pulled by the police, I'm not going to blame the dealer that sold and fitted the part.
Xen Gin Solar Excavations Ultd. Black Sun Alliance	Posted - 2009.05.15 11:48:00 - [18] Originally by: Tallaran Kouros Originally by: Micia The guy bought a new car... on a lease. Here's the question I'd be askin'... Why is the dealership selling/leasing new cars that are apparently not legal in his local area? Because it's not the dealer's responsibility - he is not the one driving it on the road. I can go and buy plenty of bike and car lights and exhausts from dealers that are not road legal, even proper racing bikes that should not be on the street. It's my responsibility to transport it from the dealership, not the dealers. Granted a good dealer will warn you and will not let you take away something that's not legal, but it's still my responsibility as I am the one that's driving it on the road. If I go and get a loud, racing exhaust fitted on my bike and get pulled by the police, I'm not going to blame the dealer that sold and fitted the part. Surely all proper dealerships are only allowed to sell road legal cars? I'd imagine a company like Ford would not stock illegal road cars.
Taelech Caldari Caldari Design and Cryogenics	Posted - 2009.05.15 11:54:00 - [19] A reasonable judge should throw out the ticket after you provide evidence that you had just aquired the car and evidence that you have corrected the problems. These are not dangerous violations (depending on how dark the tint was) and are recognized as such by judges. BTW, what jurisdiction are you in that has such draconian laws? Here's hoping for a reasonable judge, not all are... Taelech - Professor emeritus - Caldari Business Tribunal School of Law
Ratchman	Posted - 2009.05.15 12:33:00 - [20] I think you were just unlucky there to get the 'by the book' copper and not a 'common sense' one. Yes, the onus is on the driver to make sure that the vehicle is roadworthy, but doesn't that then mean that the person who sold you the car was selling you a vehicle that was unroadworthy, which is surely a violation in itself. If applying the letter of the law, they should have their day in court too. Of course, a common sense approach would be for the policeman to offer you a friendly reminder, assuming that you have proof of the purchase actually in the car at the time (which you should have, if it's just been bought). If you didn't have the evidence, well you'd have to bite the bullet. In Britain, all you have to do is to contest the ticket, and it's pretty much thrown out, as it's more costly to go through the proceedings than it is to just drop the case. This isn't policy, but it is precedent.
Ranik Sandaris Caldari The Centurions Eternus Imperium Alliance	Posted - 2009.05.15 12:35:00 - [21] Because of concord Zoom Zoom
Tallaran Kouros Caldari Arcane Alliance	Posted - 2009.05.15 12:37:00 - [22] Originally by: Taelech A reasonable judge should throw out the ticket after you provide evidence that you had just aquired the car and evidence that you have corrected the problems. He was in violation when he drove the car on the public road, just as he would be if he lacked insurance or road tax. If someone with a tinted window knocked me off my bike, you can be damn sure that I would take them to court for liability on account of the tint impairing their view of the road. Quote: These are not dangerous violations (depending on how dark the tint was) and are recognized as such by judges. It's unlikely to go to court here - you would probably be issued with a Fixed Penalty Notice by the officer and only if you failed to pay it would you receive a NIP (Notice of Intended Prosecution). And yes, I would argue that it IS a dangerous safety violation for all the reasons that I have stated above. If it turns out that the tint is compliant and lets the statutory minimum amount of light through then fair enough, but otherwise I don't see how a "sympathetic judge" will throw the case out - the tine is either legal or not, an offence has either been committed or it has not. I don't really see any leeway. Quote: BTW, what jurisdiction are you in that has such draconian laws? I'm in the United Kingdom, although I'm not sure what you think is so draconian about this. It's recognised that tinted windows reduce visibility, that's why the law only allows tinting that lets a minimum specified amount of light through. Either the tine complies with the law or it does not. It's exactly the same with noise regulations that stipulate that exhaust noise must not exceed a certain amount of decibels. The exhaust either complies or it does not, and if you fit an exhaust that does not comply then you don't really have an excuse if you get pulled and fined - ignorance is no defence. Sorry if you think I'm being harsh but as I said, I'm a motorcyclist and whilst there are some downright stupid laws out there, I recognise that there are some laws that exist for a good reason.
Taelech Caldari Caldari Design and Cryogenics	Posted - 2009.05.15 12:57:00 - [23] Originally by: Tallaran Kouros Originally by: Taelech A reasonable judge should throw out the ticket after you provide evidence that you had just aquired the car and evidence that you have corrected the problems. He was in violation when he drove the car on the public road, just as he would be if he lacked insurance or road tax. If someone with a tinted window knocked me off my bike, you can be damn sure that I would take them to court for liability on account of the tint impairing their view of the road. Quote: These are not dangerous violations (depending on how dark the tint was) and are recognized as such by judges. It's unlikely to go to court here - you would probably be issued with a Fixed Penalty Notice by the officer and only if you failed to pay it would you receive a NIP (Notice of Intended Prosecution). And yes, I would argue that it IS a dangerous safety violation for all the reasons that I have stated above. If it turns out that the tint is compliant and lets the statutory minimum amount of light through then fair enough, but otherwise I don't see how a "sympathetic judge" will throw the case out - the tine is either legal or not, an offence has either been committed or it has not. I don't really see any leeway. Quote: BTW, what jurisdiction are you in that has such draconian laws? I'm in the United Kingdom, although I'm not sure what you think is so draconian about this. It's recognised that tinted windows reduce visibility, that's why the law only allows tinting that lets a minimum specified amount of light through. Either the tine complies with the law or it does not. It's exactly the same with noise regulations that stipulate that exhaust noise must not exceed a certain amount of decibels. The exhaust either complies or it does not, and if you fit an exhaust that does not comply then you don't really have an excuse if you get pulled and fined - ignorance is no defence. Sorry if you think I'm being harsh but as I said, I'm a motorcyclist and whilst there are some downright stupid laws out there, I recognise that there are some laws that exist for a good reason. Sounds as if you agree with me for the most part. But just as there are situations where breaking the law is not illegal. There are situations where enforcement of the law is not warranted. I think this is one of them, but I am not the judge. I do not see a safety issue here, granted I see no difference between a motorbike and a car as regards the law. As long as the tint allows the driver to see (regardless of the legal tint level) it poses no safety hazard. If it does impair vision... I'm right beside you. As for the judge not having leeway. If this case is in the US, which I believe since the fine was quoted in $, a judge has complete leeway. A judge in his courtroom is like a captain on his ship. He has complete authority. He can mandate that anyone entering his room must wear red clothes. He can confiscate offending objects such as cellphones (even if they don't go off) or books. He can demand counsel adress him in haiku form only. He will get a fitness review pretty quickly if he did the red clothes or haiku thing, but he still can do it. Thank goodness we have an appeal system. Most offenses are reviewed on the arbitrary and capricious standard, basically did the ruling judge give an explination for his dismissal. In this case, the judge can find that the OP posed no safety hazard and has corrected the deficencies in his car. (even if, as you say, there was a safety issue) The court on appeal could not reverse the dismissal on A&C grounds. Justice is in the eye of the beholder and the trial judge is the beholder. I've seen much worse stuff than this get tossed out. Taelech - Professor emeritus - Caldari Business Tribunal School of Law
Tallaran Kouros Caldari Arcane Alliance	Posted - 2009.05.15 13:12:00 - [24] Originally by: Taelech Sounds as if you agree with me for the most part. But just as there are situations where breaking the law is not illegal. There are situations where enforcement of the law is not warranted. I think this is one of them, but I am not the judge. It depends on the offence, but some are always prosecuted whereas some are down to the discretion of the officer. If I get found in possession of Cannabis then yes, I have committed an offence under the Misuse of Drugs Act and would be liable upon prosecution to a fine not exceeding úxxx and or a jail term not exceeding x days - you get the picture. However, the officer can use his discretion and issue me with a formal caution and confiscate the substance. This is very likely to happen with cannabis but would never happen with ****** - it depends on the seriousness of the offence as you rightly say, but I have broken the law regardless. Some other offences however - particularly driving offences - are absolute offences and you commit the offence and are liable no matter what the excuse. Some of these are speeding, running a red light and vehicle offences. An example of this would be if my road tax expired. If I drove to the post office to buy a new tax disc for the year and was stopped by the police, even if I was going to collect the tax disc then an offence has been committed no matter what the excuse, and I would be liable for the fine and the law does not recognise any exemptions - you are either driving a taxed vehicle or you are not, end of story. As I said with tinted windows, they are either legal or they are not and it's the responsibility of the driver to ensure that they are :)
Taelech Caldari Caldari Design and Cryogenics	Posted - 2009.05.15 13:22:00 - [25] Originally by: Tallaran Kouros Originally by: Taelech Sounds as if you agree with me for the most part. But just as there are situations where breaking the law is not illegal. There are situations where enforcement of the law is not warranted. I think this is one of them, but I am not the judge. It depends on the offence, but some are always prosecuted whereas some are down to the discretion of the officer. This is very likely to happen with cannabis but would never happen with ****** - it depends on the seriousness of the offence as you rightly say, but I have broken the law regardless. Some other offences however - particularly driving offences - are absolute offences and you commit the offence and are liable no matter what the excuse. Some of these are speeding, running a red light and vehicle offences. Sounds similar to our system. Speeding is a strict liability crime here too. That being said, over here the officer does not have to issue you a ticket, and even if he does the judge can still dissmiss the case. Even if the judge does not dismiss, a jury can still find you not guilty (even if you are.) Heck, there are circumstances, albiet extreme, where drunk driving is not punishable. I think we are focusing on different sides of the equation, you on the executive (cops) and I on the judicial (courts). BTW, you a barrister? Or are all people in UK as informed about the legal system as you? (that sure isn't the case this side of the pond) Taelech - Professor emeritus - Caldari Business Tribunal School of Law
Tallaran Kouros Caldari Arcane Alliance	Posted - 2009.05.15 13:57:00 - [26] Originally by: Taelech BTW, you a barrister? Or are all people in UK as informed about the legal system as you? (that sure isn't the case this side of the pond) Nope, I work in IT. I just like to know the provisions of the law and what I can and cannot do. It's especially helpful to be well versed in consumer rights and contract law, as it's been good knowledge to fall back on whenever a shop or supplier has tried to pull one over on me. FWIW we don't actually have barristers in Scotland - we have advocates and solicitors and they tend to cover different aspects of the law. We are also unique in the world in having three verdicts - Guilty, Not Guilty and Not Proven :)
Jacob Mei	Posted - 2009.05.15 14:56:00 - [27] Originally by: Tallaran Kouros Originally by: Jacob Mei Any Judge will see that you just bought the car only hours earlier and should throw out the ticket. Why? It's the OP's responsibility to comply with the law. If someone had "just bought" a car and drove it home without arranging insurance and then crashed into you on the way, would you still be wanting the judge to go easy on their lack of insurance just because they only had the car for half an hour? If he was deliberately driving around with the modifications for days then yes he would be in the wrong. However based on what he is saying he was not aware that the modifications were illegal in the first place, he had just bought the car and had proof of purchase. Let me ask you this: what was he expected to do, strip the tinting right there on the spot? How would he and surely that would have have created a bigger road hazard if not done by a professional. -------------------------------- To borrow a phrase: Players who post are like stars, there are bright ones and those who are dim.
Tallaran Kouros Caldari Arcane Alliance	Posted - 2009.05.15 15:20:00 - [28] Originally by: Jacob Mei If he was deliberately driving around with the modifications for days then yes he would be in the wrong. However based on what he is saying he was not aware that the modifications were illegal in the first place, he had just bought the car and had proof of purchase. I sympathise with the OP's position, but ignorance of the law is no defence. If the tint is illegal and if it's a strict liability offence in his jurisdiction then it doesn't matter if he intended to break the law or not - the offence has been committed and he would be liable. Quote: Let me ask you this: what was he expected to do, strip the tinting right there on the spot? How would he and surely that would have have created a bigger road hazard if not done by a professional. I sympathise with his situation but it's not for me to say what the OP should or shouldn't have done. If he wasn't aware that the tint was illegal then it's a bit of a ****er, but the law on tinted windows is there for a good reason. And no, I'm not on an anti-car crusade just because I ride a motorcycle - I would be just as harsh on a biker with a tinted visor or an illegal modification on their bike.
Micheal Dietrich Caldari	Posted - 2009.05.15 16:12:00 - [29] Originally by: Tallaran Kouros Perhaps a little harsh, but it's your responsibility to ensure that the car is roadworthy and legal before driving it on a public highway. I'm guessing you're in the US, but would you expect to be let off if you had "just bought the car" and drove it home without your insurance, road tax or any mandatory annual inspection that your state imposes? It's harsh mate, but I'm not really seeing how this is different. We have a little piece of paper that is placed in the back window of a newly bought car that allows us a week to acquire those items you speak of. As for the mandatory inspection crap, good dealerships perform a multi-point inspection on each vehicle that goes through their lot which is what this dealership apparently didn't do. Really good dealership have the car facts of the vehicle. And I'm curious as to what people are referring to with fog lights because where I live fog lights have a yellow tint lens because the yellow beam doesn't reflect as much in fog. And it certainly wouldn't be an issue in the daytime. Now regular beams may affect those in the daytime and they tend to be called secondary lights or driving lights and carry a clear lens just like a headlight.
Tallaran Kouros Caldari Arcane Alliance	Posted - 2009.05.15 16:26:00 - [30] Originally by: Micheal Dietrich We have a little piece of paper that is placed in the back window of a newly bought car that allows us a week to acquire those items you speak of. That depends on your jurisdiction - there is no such exemption here. Quote: As for the mandatory inspection crap, good dealerships perform a multi-point inspection on each vehicle that goes through their lot which is what this dealership apparently didn't do. Really good dealership have the car facts of the vehicle. By "mandatory inspection" I mean what is called an MOT in the UK - it's an annual inspection required of all vehicles over 3 years of age. Failure to have a valid MOT certificate is an offence, and the only exemption is if you are taking the vehicle to a garage for a pre-arranged test, and if you are pulled then most cops would call the garage and confirm that you are indeed on your way to the test. Quote: And I'm curious as to what people are referring to with fog lights because where I live fog lights have a yellow tint lens because the yellow beam doesn't reflect as much in fog. And it certainly wouldn't be an issue in the daytime. We might be using terminology. My bike has a dim, white light that runs whenever the engine is running. I can put on the fog light which is the full brightness, full beam. In poor visibility then an oncoming vehicle with full beams will blind me to the road ahead, and one behind me will mean that I cannot use the mirrors. It's obviously a far more serious impairment at night, but a car behind me with full beams can still be an issue in the day time as the glare reflecting from my mirrors makes it extremely difficult to see anything else.

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