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CCP, why only faction ammo and not faction everything ?

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Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.05.15 18:54:00 - [1] You added some missing faction "consumables" to the market this last patch. But... why don't you add EVERYTHING ? I mean, what's the problem with having stuff like "Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field" being sold on the market ? Yeah, sure, SOME people will complain they'll make less ISK via contract trades, but that's not a good enough reason. As for the "database load", it's not like a contract is so much less intensive than a market order, now is it ? EVE issues\|Mining revamp\|Build stuff\|Make ISK
Sir Elliot	Posted - 2009.05.15 19:01:00 - [2] /signed 100x
Tressin Khiyne Minmatar The Tal'Shiar	Posted - 2009.05.15 19:05:00 - [3] It is frustrating that the market can't be used for everything. Contracts are completely cluttered and unorganized, making buying and selling stuff there difficult at best, and often impossible. Not only would it be nice to see stuff on the regular market to be more openly competitive, but it would also be nice to see contracts serve as a means to hire other players for tasks rather than a substandard marketplace. -- Save the SEXY in EVE!
Illwill Bill Svea Rike Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2009.05.15 19:06:00 - [4] While this post should be in another sub-forum, I completely agree with the OP's proposal. Originally by: CCP Zulupark WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?
Darkerz Reloaded Gallente	Posted - 2009.05.15 19:14:00 - [5] beeecause....hmm....yea....
5pinDizzy	Posted - 2009.05.15 19:15:00 - [6] Posting in an Akita T whine thread, similar to a Bellum whine thread but usually three times longer and not about blasters. I do agree they need to take a more black and white stance on faction items though yes, also decide what should be contracts only if anything. Probably go with anything that's illegal in the area you're currently in for a start. That or create new non mainstream npc stations that aren't so easy to find but with a black market available on them.
Anyura	Posted - 2009.05.15 19:16:00 - [7] Originally by: Darkerz Reloaded beeecause....hmm....yea.... CONCORD is standing by, just waiting for you to finish that sentence.
Setana Manoro Gallente Firefly Inc.	Posted - 2009.05.15 19:20:00 - [8] Originally by: Akita T You added some missing faction "consumables" to the market this last patch. But... why don't you add EVERYTHING ? I mean, what's the problem with having stuff like "Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field" being sold on the market ? Yeah, sure, SOME people will complain they'll make less ISK via contract trades, but that's not a good enough reason. As for the "database load", it's not like a contract is so much less intensive than a market order, now is it ? For one, i think your guys will complain. :)
Abrazzar	Posted - 2009.05.15 19:32:00 - [9] I think it's because the rather limited amount of faction items sold does not justify the additional size in the market database to incorporate them all. A contract is only one entry per contract, but a market entry would need a table for offers to sort the sales and buy orders in no matter if there is an item sold. Also you'd need to add all of this to every region instead of having only one EVE-wide contract system. Guess PrismX or some other database wizard can explain how it really is, I'm just guessing. -------- Ideas for: Mining
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.05.15 19:32:00 - [10] Edited by: Akita T on 15/05/2009 19:36:10 Originally by: 5pinDizzy Probably go with anything that's illegal in the area you're currently in for a start. Nah, I'd say that about covers everything that shouldn't be on the market. Originally by: Abrazzar Guess PrismX or some other database wizard can explain how it really is, I'm just guessing. Oh, I bet there's tons of EXCUSES to be found if necessary for not having it. EVE issues\|Mining revamp\|Build stuff\|Make ISK
Sophia Truthspeaker Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2009.05.15 19:37:00 - [11] Originally by: 5pinDizzy ... also decide what should be contracts only if anything. Probably go with anything that's illegal in the area you're currently in for a start. That or create new non mainstream npc stations that aren't so easy to find but with a black market available on them. The fun part is, you can already sell illegal stuff on the open market but not in contracts... And why they don't include everything on the market? No idea, but my own reason not to include everything would be: - hightens the percieved rarity of faction items - if all faction items were in the market, what is left in contracts? - rp reasons: the empires don't want the faction items to spread even further - new player would be even more confused _________ The truth is out there
Lonzo Kincaid Black Nova Corp KenZoku	Posted - 2009.05.15 19:38:00 - [12] contracts; the suck ---------------------- Quote: The rule of thumb is you have to outnumber them 2:1 before you even think about engaging them
Abrazzar	Posted - 2009.05.15 19:42:00 - [13] Originally by: Akita T Oh, I bet there's tons of EXCUSES to be found if necessary for not having it. Nothing that couldn't be worked around, mind you, but presented as insurmountable obstacles for improvement. I see you have already made up your mind on the matter and you do not care about any reasons that may even be valid. Thank you. It saves me the time in the future to consider your opinion. -------- Ideas for: Mining
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.05.15 19:45:00 - [14] Originally by: Sophia Truthspeaker hightens the percieved rarity of faction items Irrelevant, but meh, I'll bite... if anything, this would show that they're actually pretty rare compared to the other ones. Quote: if all faction items were in the market, what is left in contracts? Barters, assembled and/or rigged ships, AUCTIONS. Quote: rp reasons: the empires don't want the faction items to spread even further Meh. Pretty weak RPish reason, but I'd say it's just about digestible. Too bad they allow contracts in the same place though, so... eh. Quote: new player would be even more confused Seen the new subtabs in the market ? Yeah, I doubt new players would be that confused. They'll just go "holy smokes, I want to be able to afford that too". EVE issues\|Mining revamp\|Build stuff\|Make ISK
Turiel Demon Minmatar Shadow Reapers	Posted - 2009.05.15 19:50:00 - [15] I think it'd be a great idea. There really isn't much of a reason not to. Also, it has come to my attention that I'm really in need of a proper signature.
Eternal Echo	Posted - 2009.05.15 19:56:00 - [16] Probably a misguided attempt to promote a more regionalised market system, there are a lot of things misguided in eve, why not this. Probably a misguided attempt to promote a more regionalised market system, there are a lot of things misguided in eve, why not this. Pr..
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.05.15 20:04:00 - [17] Originally by: Abrazzar Originally by: Akita T Oh, I bet there's tons of EXCUSES to be found if necessary for not having it. Nothing that couldn't be worked around, mind you, but presented as insurmountable obstacles for improvement. I see you have already made up your mind on the matter and you do not care about any reasons that may even be valid. Thank you. It saves me the time in the future to consider your opinion. I've made up my mind about the way CCP presents things to the general public. If they come up with an ACTUAL explanation that's not completely handwaved, I can dig that. Allow me to present several instances of "CCP excuse-o-matic logic"... First off, the "BPO vs BPC" debacle. There's a grand total of slightly above 1k blueprint types in the game, some of which should never have BPOs (only BPCs). The excuse CCP gave about not separating BPOs and BPCs into two distinct item IDs so they could get different icons was that somehow the lookup table should be as small as possible to optimize searches. Now, they never mentioned what EXACT kinds of searches that would be. Is it searches for an icon ? Then what about the massive amount of JUNK items that could just as well be cleaned up from the game, they don't seem keen on doing that for the sake of optimizing. And let's not forget several types of items that are basically IDENTICAL, just with different names. Or would that be some kind of material search on the bill of materials page ? Yeah, I'm stretching the imagination here, but who knows. What about having two separate searches for BPOs vs BPCs then ? No matter how you put it, it's an EXCUSE. It can be done, but it requires some work. So you get an excuse for not doing it. Or, what about the time people told CCP the POS/probe controls are annoying as hell, and they should look at a "Homeworld" style UI for movement ? I still can't stomach the "technically unfeasable" answer. What the bloody hell is technically unfeasable about that, cat got your trigonometric transformations away or what the hell ? Or, how about the "it's a nightmare to make expiry date display in the character sheet". You know, the excuse being it's so hard to interogate the billing server as to the date it would expire. But... wait... don't you ALREADY DO THAT WHEN YOU TRY TO APPLY A PLEX ?!? Yeah, I guess code recycling is next to impossible. Oh, or is it too CPU-intensive ? Then make it a "only displayed when clicked" thing. But don't come up with a "too hard to do" excuse. So, yes, I am fully prepared to see a LOT of EXCUSES that make no sense under the slightest bit of scrutiny. I can already tell you some of it... "We are worried the market node is not prepared to handle so many separate orders". Yeah, so, get better hardware then, you got some for Jita and fleet battles. It's not like orders wouldn't be piling up anyway. Hell, you can SPLIT the market functionally on separate machines for different item TYPES, but I bet nobody ever thought of that as a possibility, have they ? That last part would also cover the "heavy load on <show only available> option selected". And so on and so forth. EVE issues\|Mining revamp\|Build stuff\|Make ISK
Sophia Truthspeaker Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2009.05.15 20:04:00 - [18] Originally by: Akita T Irrelevant, but meh, I'll bite... if anything, this would show that they're actually pretty rare compared to the other ones. That's what I am saying. Whenever new ships hit the game, they start out being extremly expansive on contracts and when they are more common get traded on the market. Contracts = where the shiney stuff is. Quote: Barters, assembled and/or rigged ships, AUCTIONS. Yeah, I forgot the assembled ships. Oh, btw, as there isn't a recorded price history for contracts, you either have to know the contract market pretty well, or simply accept the prices as face value. And if faction items are kept in contracts you can check for all available faction items of that type throughout all regions. Quote: Meh. Pretty weak RPish reason, but I'd say it's just about digestible. Too bad they allow contracts in the same place though, so... eh. The way I understood escrow was a kind of half illegal black market kind of thing. Or underground perhaps. So it would make sense for rare items to show up there instead of the "normal" market. And yeah, I didn't like it, when they introduced the sell illegal items everywhere. Quote: Seen the new subtabs in the market ? Yeah, I doubt new players would be that confused. They'll just go "holy smokes, I want to be able to afford that too". No, haven't seen the new subtab, probably should check it out. Granted wasn't my best argument ever, but for a new player the added faction items could lead to even more questions in the help and rookie channels... like the "when i grow up i want to fly a titan, where do i get one?" question. Actually, removing motherships and titans from the market would be a nice move. _________ The truth is out there
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.05.15 20:07:00 - [19] Originally by: Sophia Truthspeaker Actually, removing motherships and titans from the market would be a nice move. Considering the fact they shouldn't ever exist packaged in a station, I'd say you got a very good point there EVE issues\|Mining revamp\|Build stuff\|Make ISK
voogru Gallente Massive Damage United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2009.05.15 20:11:00 - [20] You used to be able to put anything on the market. The catch was not everything was listed by default, but you could "view market details" on any item and see all of those items on the market. IMO, the contract system is more taxing on their databases than the market. Hate Farmers? Click Here
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.05.15 20:14:00 - [21] Precisely. They don't even have to appear in the left tree, they might as well ONLY be avaliable via the search field for all I care. And since that is a simple CLIENT-SIDE search for the item ID, they shouldn't really give a damn. EVE issues\|Mining revamp\|Build stuff\|Make ISK
Armoured C Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Aggression.	Posted - 2009.05.15 20:19:00 - [22] hug for all ? nothing says "im awesome" with a fully faction fitted ibis TBH if you buy eve in a box from my game store i will give you isk (GAME , parkgate rotherham)
Faife Federation of Freedom Fighters Aggression.	Posted - 2009.05.15 20:21:00 - [23] Originally by: voogru You used to be able to put anything on the market. The catch was not everything was listed by default, but you could "view market details" on any item and see all of those items on the market. IMO, the contract system is more taxing on their databases than the market. did they really fix that? i haven't looked in a dog's age --
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.05.15 20:25:00 - [24] Originally by: Faife did they really fix that? i haven't looked in a dog's age They "fixed" that by removing the "see market details" option from the items (and I suppose also removing the quick reference links to item IDs no longer "marketable" from your local pilot settings). I can bet you a load of ISK the functionality to trade the items themselves still exist, but a "normal" client shouldn't be able to access it. Heck, you could PROBABLY be able to access it if you could force a different item ID in one of your quickbar entries, but that would be against the EULA. EVE issues\|Mining revamp\|Build stuff\|Make ISK
something somethingdark	Posted - 2009.05.15 20:27:00 - [25] Originally by: Akita T IF THEY HAVE A RATIONAL EXPLANATION AND ARE OPEN TO DISCUSSION ABOUT ALTERNATIVES, THEN BRING IT ON, BY ALL MEANS. But sadly, that's not what CCP usually does. So, yeah, I fully expect to see a lot of excuses instead of any explanations. you forgot the one where editing a ship model (or creating a new one ) would take them half a year to a year because all the steps they have to take ....
VoiceInTheDesert Zebra Corp Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2009.05.15 20:30:00 - [26] The only real advantage to contracts vs market is that you can see contracts in all regions from anywhere, whereas you need to be in region to compare prices on market. So for high priced items, I can see why people would want to browse contracts instead (find the lowest possible price anywhere). That said....contracts are far too cluttered and I think the game would benefit greatly from faction/deadspace items on market. The market just allows for so much more information (price history, sorting ability, etc). /signed (but as an option, I don't want contracts eliminated)
Yakia TovilToba Halliburton Inc.	Posted - 2009.05.15 20:33:00 - [27] Originally by: Akita T ...And so on and so forth. IF THEY HAVE A RATIONAL EXPLANATION AND ARE OPEN TO DISCUSSION ABOUT ALTERNATIVES, THEN BRING IT ON, BY ALL MEANS. But sadly, that's not what CCP usually does. So, yeah, I fully expect to see a lot of excuses instead of any explanations. Hello Akita T, I think you misjudge the whole situation. This is not a court trial where people have to justify their actions and give rational explanations. Or a public debate between candidates who try to look rational and have better arguments, in order to win an election. CCP can do whatever they like and they don't have to give any excuses or explanations at all. This game is their piece of art, they do it the way they like and not necessarily the way it should look rational or like you'd like it to have (you can also make your own Mmo, you know). If you don't like what they do, you can try to manipulate them by giving your reasons on the forums, and pretend that costumers want it this way and not the other way, but if they don't do what is rational in your eyes, you can't do much except leave. And i bet 20 people will ask for your stuff if you decide to leave. But you can't demand that they explain every step and give account for all their actions to you, unless you are a boss or major stockholder of CCP or something.
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2009.05.15 20:37:00 - [28] I have a dim recollection of them removing faction items from the market to reduce load on the database but that was waaay back when the db was still running off mechanical harddrives and not electric memory ramsans as it is now. I think at that time they were looking to remove anything at all that could reduce load and would not upset the game too much. Time to put it back now maybe? Originally by: Fifinella As to trying to scare me with 0.0/lowsec, well,..... I've been there, and wasn't very scared at all. Only a little.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.05.15 20:52:00 - [29] Edited by: Akita T on 15/05/2009 20:56:34 Originally by: Yakia TovilToba I think you misjudge the whole situation. [...] What's there to misjudge ? We continually give CCP ideas and suggestions, they cherry-pick something they like and ignore the rest, they reject some popular suggestions with unreasonable explanations (I called that "making excuses"), they continuously ignore warnings and so on and so forth. OF COURSE that's their RIGHT to do, since it's their game. Did I ever say anything else ? And OF COURSE if I reach the point where a better alternative comes along (although I doubt that), or I simply get too fed up with it all, then I will SURELY quit. And when I quit, at most I'll make a "bye bye guys" post in OOPE, with my stuff either already given away or kept for my possible return later on. Duuh. However, I am not obligated and I won't ever accept some weak excuse as being the real reason to not do something. Obviously, CCP can't get a spokesperson to say "well, we don't have time for this since we don't consider it relevant" nor "even if this would be trivial to implement normally, we have such convoluted internal rules that something so simple becomes actually next to impossible". I can call CCP whatever the heck I want to, and they can lock the thread, ban me from the forums or even from the game. Just because I'm aware of all possibilities doesn't mean I can't have an opinion. And just because it's MY opinion, it doesn't mean it's right nor wrong. But yeah, sure, it's easy to never discuss issues based on their own merit and simply generalize (as I am also occasionally guilty as doing), but... so what ? On the other hand, it IS ALSO MY ONLY OPTION to complain about things I DON'T like, and suggest what I WOULD like, in the hope that maybe, just maybe, EITHER one guy from CCP likes the idea in some way and feeds it back to his coworkers eventually, even in a modified form OR the community likes it enough to continuously pester CCP until they cave in. That's all I can do, and that's what I ACTUALLY DO. And I do it because I do give a damn. EVE issues\|Mining revamp\|Build stuff\|Make ISK
Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2009.05.15 20:56:00 - [30] Frankly, I think the "Good" Faction ships and gear should be available on the Market. Then turn around in Low Sec and introduce a Black Market that has the Pirate Gear and Ships. Get rid of Item Exchange contracts entirely. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.

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