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Nova Satar
Annihilate.
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Posted - 2009.05.18 10:24:00 -
[1]
General thoughts...
With the dreads in general, theres seems to be pros and cons of both, but i'd be keen to hear your thoughts...
I think all dreads should have 2 Damage mods on, regardless of the race, especially with the Nag changes this is now possible on all 4. But after this, is it better to buffer up your HP or to get a very high dps-tank.
Example... i briefly played around with the Nag and it can get a 3.4million Effective HP, with a 4k dps tank (17k unstable). Would this be betetr than a 9-10k DPs tank (17k unstable)but with much less HP???
My views are if you're gunna get shot you're probably gunna die, so HP would be the better option in the hope you can drop out of siege and get some RR luvin'
Thoughts??
Love Nova
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Methicone
Amarr
Annihilate.
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Posted - 2009.05.18 10:26:00 -
[2]
first :D
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.05.18 10:49:00 -
[3]
In large cap fights a dread lasts maybe a minute under fire so you'd need a bloody hefty tank to live longer than a buffer.
After you've topped 2 mil ehp, I'd prefer more damage mods. 5k dps phoenix ftw.
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Nova Satar
Annihilate.
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Posted - 2009.05.18 10:55:00 -
[4]
this is what i've been thinking too....
I can get up to 3.8mil EHP with a nag and still do "decent" dps.....
But for smaller scale low-sec figths i feel a tank may be better...... becuase some situations are tankable.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
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Posted - 2009.05.18 13:33:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Crackzilla on 18/05/2009 13:35:14
 Originally by: Nova Satar
becuase some situations are tankable.
In a dread? Almost never. Except maybe a moros station ganking. Or maybe some ghetto pos.
So: 1) dmg, 2) buffer, 3) tank, 4) cap stability.
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Nova Satar
Annihilate.
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Posted - 2009.05.18 14:12:00 -
[6]
I gotta disagree with what you're saying about "almsot never". If you're a lowsec or empire based merc then there will be plenty of tankable situations... the only time it won't be is when multiple other dreads are deployed.
Then again, unless it's a gank or a pos takedown i think buffer is going to have to be the way....
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Bronson Hughes
ADVANCED Combat and Engineering
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Posted - 2009.05.18 14:33:00 -
[7]
You're pretty much spot on but for more reasons than you think.
In big 0.0 slugfests you're going to die if you get primaried no matter how you're fit, so fit for a mix of buffer and damage so you can do as much damage as possible before you go down. Active fits can't really fir damage mods, so you want to maximize your DPS and your EHP to be effective as possible.
In smaller engagements, which tend to last longer, an active tank is a better choice because your opponents will have to burn through a greater amount of total EHP (base plus repped) to take you down, if they can take you down at all. I've seen LoSec gangs burn through a buffer fit dread but not be able to break the tank of an active-fit dread.
Between my experiences and talking with others, the transition between when active tanking is more effective than buffer tanking in terms of survivability is about 10 dreads worth of incoming firepower; less than 10 and you're better off active tanking, 10 or more and you start living longer with a buffer tank. You won't necessarily survive in an active fit at that point, but you're staying alive long enough that the amount of repping you're doing is more than the amount of extra EHP a buffer fit will have.
Mind you, there are other things to consider than simply your tank. If you need to pump out as much DPS as possible to kill your target faster, you pretty much need to buffer fit because you can't really fit damage mods on active fits. One thing to keep in mind though is that you should usually only sacrifice tank to improve DPS if doing so will reduce the number of siege cycles you have to spend shooting at your target. If you drop from 15 minutes of DPS needed to 8 minutes, great, you've just saved yourself a siege cycle, but if you're dropping from 18 minutes of DPS needed to 11 minutes, you're still stuck there running your siege module for 20 minutes. There are execeptions to this of course (i.e. killing your target faster will keep you alive longer) but I've never been as comfortable 'tanking with my guns' in a dread as I am doing it in, say, a Thorax.
So what it all boils down to is: how do you plan on using your dread? If it's mainly in 0.0 for big fleet fights, a buffer fit is the way to go. If it's mainly for LoSec where you don't expect to ever encounter a large hostile capital fleet, go for an active tank. If you're somewhere in between, you're somewhat hosed because you need a little bit of both and the different fits require different rigs so you'll have to compromise (or just go with what your corp/alliance does or tells you to do).
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"I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne |
Nova Satar
Annihilate.
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Posted - 2009.05.18 15:18:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Bronson Hughes
Words
Nice post m8, thats pretty much where my minds at, good to have it reinforced though. DPS it is 
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
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Posted - 2009.05.18 16:00:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Crackzilla on 18/05/2009 16:02:17
Originally by: Nova Satar
I gotta disagree with what you're saying about "almsot never". If you're a lowsec or empire based merc then there will be plenty of tankable situations... the only time it won't be is when multiple other dreads are deployed.
Nope. Did a number of pos takedowns. Tankable situations were rare. Usually it was all about the buffer to live long enough to exit seige and be repped by friendly carriers.
If you're in a small group of dreads taking down a pos all it takes is a medium size roaming pirate rr bs gang to ruin your day.
Active/buffer tanks are a misnomer. Buffer fits still have an active tank usually. The difference is cap stability and sacrificing for dps.
An active fit might have 3x ccc rigs, a buffer fit 3x trimarks. The active fit might have 1 or 2x cap relays (or phoenix all cap relays). The buffer fit is more likely to have 2x damage mods and a damage control. The buffer fit probably still have 1x cap shield boost or 2x capital armor reps.
That roaming bs gang I mentioned? Even a medium size low sec pirate corp is going to have the contacts to hot drop a dozen caps on you. "Tankable situations" mean that someone is holding you down with minimal risk to themselves to bring in bigger guns.
If you're shooting a pos, you need dps. If you're ganking, you need dps. The active tank is a rare niche. You could probably get the same job done with less risk by using a few rr bs.
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Grista
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Posted - 2009.05.18 17:54:00 -
[10]
The post-patch Naglfar is, indeed, a solid dread. Excellent EHP and burst tank, and insane cap-less dps at Dread V.
If you're primaried by 20+ other dreads while you're in siege, it doesn't matter what your tank/EHP are in any case. You're going to die in short order.
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Seishi Maru
M. Corp
Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.05.18 19:16:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Crackzilla
Edited by: Crackzilla on 18/05/2009 13:35:14
Originally by: Nova Satar
becuase some situations are tankable.
In a dread? Almost never. Except maybe a moros station ganking. Or maybe some ghetto pos.
So: 1) dmg, 2) buffer, 3) tank, 4) cap stability.
I spent 7 hours yesterday on one of the largest cap fights ever....
And on that fight I can easilyu say a dread taht could run sustained (without any player input) tank of 5k dps.. would be invulnerable. Due to lag mos ship could fire once per minute or less. Seen quite afew dreads survive a crap ton of time tankign whole NC fleet until their cap ended exaclty because of that. SO if you are jumping into a fight you know the node isnod handlign well a sustained tank works great.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
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Posted - 2009.05.18 19:53:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Crackzilla on 18/05/2009 19:53:26
Originally by: Seishi Maru
Due to lag mos ship could fire once per minute or less.
Last I heard on lag is that if a ship is firing once per minute than your local tank is probably cycling once per minute. Module lag should be affecting everything. I haven't tried it in a while but it is what I remember from my last big laggy cap fight.
Tank doesn't matter here as much as it takes time for enough dreads to switch targets to a new primary. You'll see this repeatedly on the primaried killmails where a few dreads will do way more damage than any other because they managed to lock and shoot first through the module lag.
I doubt they were tanking the entire nc fleet.
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Seishi Maru
M. Corp
Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.05.19 00:48:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Crackzilla
Edited by: Crackzilla on 18/05/2009 19:53:26
Originally by: Seishi Maru
Due to lag mos ship could fire once per minute or less.
Last I heard on lag is that if a ship is firing once per minute than your local tank is probably cycling once per minute. Module lag should be affecting everything. I haven't tried it in a while but it is what I remember from my last big laggy cap fight.
Tank doesn't matter here as much as it takes time for enough dreads to switch targets to a new primary. You'll see this repeatedly on the primaried killmails where a few dreads will do way more damage than any other because they managed to lock and shoot first through the module lag.
I doubt they were tanking the entire nc fleet.
nope. because things on auto repeat work nice. But you cannot leave your guns on auto repeat on those fights or when the target dies you become unable to fire at anything else until you get out of siege. So everyone needs to manually cycle their guns.
I tanked myself at least 8 dreads for a long time before my connection dropped. If was nto for the lag I woudl have melted very fast. Anyway my cap was not stable so i would die eventually even without disconnection.
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abrasive soap
Balls Deep Inc.
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Posted - 2009.05.19 01:20:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Seishi Maru
Originally by: Crackzilla
Edited by: Crackzilla on 18/05/2009 19:53:26
Originally by: Seishi Maru
Due to lag mos ship could fire once per minute or less.
Last I heard on lag is that if a ship is firing once per minute than your local tank is probably cycling once per minute. Module lag should be affecting everything. I haven't tried it in a while but it is what I remember from my last big laggy cap fight.
Tank doesn't matter here as much as it takes time for enough dreads to switch targets to a new primary. You'll see this repeatedly on the primaried killmails where a few dreads will do way more damage than any other because they managed to lock and shoot first through the module lag.
I doubt they were tanking the entire nc fleet.
nope. because things on auto repeat work nice. But you cannot leave your guns on auto repeat on those fights or when the target dies you become unable to fire at anything else until you get out of siege. So everyone needs to manually cycle their guns.
I tanked myself at least 8 dreads for a long time before my connection dropped. If was nto for the lag I woudl have melted very fast. Anyway my cap was not stable so i would die eventually even without disconnection.
you also have infinite cap because the lag was terrible without the node being reinforced
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Gavin Darklighter
THE FINAL STAND
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Posted - 2009.05.19 02:49:00 -
[15]
Look at the fleet you are forming before deciding. Big active tank for a small capital fleet, big burst tank and eHP for massive fleet fight.
signature picture exceeds the size limit.~WeatherMan |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.05.19 08:34:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Gavin Darklighter
Look at the fleet you are forming before deciding. Big active tank for a small capital fleet, big burst tank and eHP for massive fleet fight.
Too bad you can almost never tell and you can almost never refit. So just go with gankbuffer and not bother with a permarunning activetank.
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