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Is homosexuality a genetic mutation?

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THE L0CK	Posted - 2009.05.20 02:08:00 - [121] Originally by: Jate Gunma To the Lock. So you don't understand why God would create something that would turn against him? I don't entirely. He created us, too, and we turned against him. But to make us machines with no choice would not be love. Yeah that's called free will, but he didn't give it the angels. I guess he doesn't love them. But in the process of giving us free will he gave us ten commandments to follow. But if we break one of these commandments (which in todays society is pretty much impossible not to do) he sends us to hell where we suffer and rot for all eternity in fire and brimstone and pain! But he loves us! Why would he do that to his children after teaching them to love thy neighbor? And as long as I'm on the commandments I would like to take about murder. Oh murder. Did you know that more people have killed in the name of god than anything else? But in the holy crusades they seemed to have overlooked that commandment and claimed the killing was God's will. Why would he will us to kill our fellow man?
Gerard Reivich	Posted - 2009.05.20 02:12:00 - [122] Originally by: THE L0CK Originally by: Jate Gunma To the Lock. So you don't understand why God would create something that would turn against him? I don't entirely. He created us, too, and we turned against him. But to make us machines with no choice would not be love. Yeah that's called free will, but he didn't give it the angels. I guess he doesn't love them. ... And as long as I'm on the commandments I would like to take about murder. Oh murder. Did you know that more people have killed in the name of god than anything else? But in the holy crusades they seemed to have overlooked that commandment and claimed the killing was God's will. Why would he will us to kill our fellow man? Ever seen Dogma? Fascinating angels in that, i highly recommend it. And a rough tally of Gods murders can be found here
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2009.05.20 02:17:00 - [123] Originally by: Jate Gunma So I was walking through the woods the other day, and found a watch lying on the ground. It obviously evolved for the basic mineral components, and put itself together. A watch is a billion times more simple than a single cell. Fortunately evolution happens by cumulative selection and is not a random process, so your cute little story fails. For a slight hint to the power of cumulative selection, how long do you think it would take to flip 100x coins and have them all land heads? Pretty poor odds, right? (Hint: you could flip once per second for the entire 14 billion year life of the universe, and your odds of seeing it even once are still more than a billion to one). Now, flip your 100x coins, but each time a coin lands heads, set it aside and stop flipping it. Now how long do you think it would take? You could probably do it in a few minutes, if you really wanted to. Here's a hint: evolution is the second case, not the first. Quote: We do see species adapt, but never do we see a new species come from a different one. This is an outright lie. Quote: You still haven't answered about what happened to Jesus. He annoyed the Romans, was executed, thrown in a hole in the ground, and gave a nice meal to some very happy worms. What else is there to say?
Troye Gallente Intelligent Concepts Inc People for Organised Peace	Posted - 2009.05.20 02:21:00 - [124] Sad to see what started off as an interesting debate based on scientific fact has now turned into aload of religious dribble, hate to break it to you but we're not gunna find the anwsers in an ancient book completely out of tune with the needs of modern day humans. Knew it wouldnt be long before the pope's fanbois got in on this.
Gerard Reivich	Posted - 2009.05.20 02:23:00 - [125] The watchmaker argument made easy I must say, useful thread this, ive finally got round to doing some research for my talks with the local Jehovah's witnesses. Quote: Knew it wouldnt be long before the pope's fanbois got in on this. Actually the Pope(and by extension his fanbois) ackowledge evolution.
THE L0CK	Posted - 2009.05.20 03:00:00 - [126] Originally by: Gerard Reivich Originally by: THE L0CK Originally by: Jate Gunma To the Lock. So you don't understand why God would create something that would turn against him? I don't entirely. He created us, too, and we turned against him. But to make us machines with no choice would not be love. Yeah that's called free will, but he didn't give it the angels. I guess he doesn't love them. ... And as long as I'm on the commandments I would like to take about murder. Oh murder. Did you know that more people have killed in the name of god than anything else? But in the holy crusades they seemed to have overlooked that commandment and claimed the killing was God's will. Why would he will us to kill our fellow man? Ever seen Dogma? Fascinating angels in that, i highly recommend it. And a rough tally of Gods murders can be found here Instant classic that movie was. I don't know how many people know this but when the religious types were protesting the movie on premiere night one channel was covering it and low and behold right at the front of the crowd was the director himself protesting his own movie. They had no clue they had been had by the man himself.
Intense Thinker Minmatar	Posted - 2009.05.20 03:43:00 - [127] I love it when they try to use inanimate objects to "disprove" evolution and how they need a maker. That is such a horrible analogy that fails on every level due to the fact that these created things are not living
Esme Westenn	Posted - 2009.05.20 05:26:00 - [128] Well, I don't think I'm a mutant. o_O But does it matter really? Anyone with an iota of sense and a minor bit of scientific research can tell you that there are certainly biological differences between homosexuals and heterosexuals. That and we tell you we didn't choose to be gay. I mean... Some people get caught up on stuff that is so unimportant in the scheme of things. Let's give citizens equal rights and then quit worrying about whats going on in the bedroom and more of who may or may not be eating in the kitchen.
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles Zzz	Posted - 2009.05.20 07:53:00 - [129] Originally by: ReaperOfSly ...if it IS caused by genes, then it most certainly IS a defect because it significantly reduces the chances of that person being able to procreate. That's not a moral judgement, it's simple biology. Suppose we complicate things a little. Imagine a recessive allele (or combination of them) that increases fertility among people with one copy, but causes a strong tendency towards homosexuality in people with two copies. This can offer a species a net advantage, even if it makes, say, a tenth of the population unlikely to reproduce. I very much doubt homosexuality would be so widespread in nature if it didn't have a significant benefit of some kind. It's not just present in humans - so far it's been documented in at least 40-50 species as well iirc. --- 20:1 mineral compression ISRC Racing, Season 7 - schedule
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.05.20 08:22:00 - [130] There are no normal people, but mutation is the norm. I am 39 years old and whenever I go to a doctor does one of them seem to find something abnormal about me. It started with the orthopedist who discovered that one foot of mine is longer than the other. I never noticed it, but he measured it. My dentist discovered that I am missing two wisdom teeth and since birth, but I never missed them. And when I broke an arm, when I was around 20 years old, a doctor discovered an irregularity in my arm's bone. Again, I never noticed it in the years before then. So whoever thinks to be free of mutations shall first see a few doctors. Btw, who brought Jesus and the church into this thread? And did not one of the pope's little buddies die because of some gay sex games some years ago? AFAIK is the church full of sinners. -- If there is anything in your life you fear of losing, then keep your mouth shut once in a while.
Vak'ran	Posted - 2009.05.20 09:04:00 - [131] Originally by: Whitehound There are no normal people, but mutation is the norm. I am 39 years old and whenever I go to a doctor does one of them seem to find something abnormal about me. It started with the orthopedist who discovered that one foot of mine is longer than the other. I never noticed it, but he measured it. My dentist discovered that I am missing two wisdom teeth and since birth, but I never missed them. And when I broke an arm, when I was around 20 years old, a doctor discovered an irregularity in my arm's bone. Again, I never noticed it in the years before then. So whoever thinks to be free of mutations shall first see a few doctors. Btw, who brought Jesus and the church into this thread? And did not one of the pope's little buddies die because of some gay sex games some years ago? AFAIK is the church full of sinners. It seems a lot of you bring up mutation as a negative, or something of a minority. What the quoted poster already hinted on: we are all mutants. Mutation is a fact of life, a process defining our genetic development, just like recombination (which happens during procreation). Where recombination 'shuffles' our genome between mom and dad, mutation is a process that introduces new changes to our genome through a number of methods which can have a number of causes. Whether or not these changes are maintained in the population is up to selection. I wouldn't assume the irregularities you have to be mutations outright, and most people have these one way or the other. Going from your genome to your actual form, for instance in early development, a lot of processes are involved. In cases such as irregularities in bone structure, chances are much greater that such processes slipped here and there, unless these things occur in your family in multiple generations. I.e., mutation wouldn't be the only explanation. Mutation probably does show up more in humanity than in other species. With out medicine and understanding we strongly limit selective pressure (i.e., how strongly selection is filtering out deleterious (bad) genetic sequences). Interesting food for thought: could we consider this a population control mechanism? Back on topic - homosexuality could also very well be a developmental difference between people (think endocrine system (hormones) again), coming from a very common genetic makeup. Statistics may indicate certain ties between variations in such sequences, but that would by no means be conclusive. Calling it a mutation I would find presumptuous. Concerning the religious incursion tonight... This may be my last post in this thread. While the discussion is interesting, I will not be subjected to the drivel I have been reading above. IMHO Mr. Christ was probably quite bright in his era, had some decent moral ideas and clearly made a lasting impression, very nice. I care not for the further fairy tales and I prohibit any attempts at conversion of that personal opinion. You are warned. ----- Vak'Ran is your local official non-dedicated part-time advocate of reading comprehension and proliferation of intelligence on the EVE Online Forums.
Ranik Sandaris Caldari The Centurions Eternus Imperium Alliance	Posted - 2009.05.20 09:51:00 - [132] i said what what.... Zoom Zoom
ReaperOfSly Gallente Zetsubou Corp	Posted - 2009.05.20 10:34:00 - [133] Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro Originally by: ReaperOfSly ...if it IS caused by genes, then it most certainly IS a defect because it significantly reduces the chances of that person being able to procreate. That's not a moral judgement, it's simple biology. Suppose we complicate things a little. Imagine a recessive allele (or combination of them) that increases fertility among people with one copy, but causes a strong tendency towards homosexuality in people with two copies. This can offer a species a net advantage, even if it makes, say, a tenth of the population unlikely to reproduce. I very much doubt homosexuality would be so widespread in nature if it didn't have a significant benefit of some kind. It's not just present in humans - so far it's been documented in at least 40-50 species as well iirc. In that case, the 10% who have the two copies of that allele would be considered to have a genetic defect because their fitness to procreate is diminished. ____________________
Toldos Leafkicker Tenichigo Kaigun Spectrum Alliance	Posted - 2009.05.20 14:34:00 - [134] Originally by: ReaperOfSly Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro Originally by: ReaperOfSly ...if it IS caused by genes, then it most certainly IS a defect because it significantly reduces the chances of that person being able to procreate. That's not a moral judgement, it's simple biology. Suppose we complicate things a little. Imagine a recessive allele (or combination of them) that increases fertility among people with one copy, but causes a strong tendency towards homosexuality in people with two copies. This can offer a species a net advantage, even if it makes, say, a tenth of the population unlikely to reproduce. I very much doubt homosexuality would be so widespread in nature if it didn't have a significant benefit of some kind. It's not just present in humans - so far it's been documented in at least 40-50 species as well iirc. In that case, the 10% who have the two copies of that allele would be considered to have a genetic defect because their fitness to procreate is diminished. That's illogical. It wouldn't be a genetic defect, considering that homosexuals are generally genetically and physically capable of procreation. What you're suggesting is a defective "life style choice," since homosexuals generally decide not to procreate, or seek other methods of raising families. Stop pretending that your opposition is based on science or data, rather than from a societal and strictly opinion-based perspective.
ReaperOfSly Gallente Zetsubou Corp	Posted - 2009.05.20 15:06:00 - [135] Originally by: Toldos Leafkicker Originally by: ReaperOfSly Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro Originally by: ReaperOfSly ...if it IS caused by genes, then it most certainly IS a defect because it significantly reduces the chances of that person being able to procreate. That's not a moral judgement, it's simple biology. Suppose we complicate things a little. Imagine a recessive allele (or combination of them) that increases fertility among people with one copy, but causes a strong tendency towards homosexuality in people with two copies. This can offer a species a net advantage, even if it makes, say, a tenth of the population unlikely to reproduce. I very much doubt homosexuality would be so widespread in nature if it didn't have a significant benefit of some kind. It's not just present in humans - so far it's been documented in at least 40-50 species as well iirc. In that case, the 10% who have the two copies of that allele would be considered to have a genetic defect because their fitness to procreate is diminished. That's illogical. It wouldn't be a genetic defect, considering that homosexuals are generally genetically and physically capable of procreation. What you're suggesting is a defective "life style choice," since homosexuals generally decide not to procreate, or seek other methods of raising families. Stop pretending that your opposition is based on science or data, rather than from a societal and strictly opinion-based perspective. Opposition? Who said I'm opposed to the existence of homosexuals? We're talking about genetics, not homophobia. Homosexuals are indeed physically capable of procreation, but less likely to do so. Given that procreation is one of the primary functions of all life, that makes it a defect if it is indeed caused by genetics. Defect is an ugly word because it sounds like I'm making a value judgement; I am not. I think this thread has argued itself in a circle because I seem to recall arguing the exact same point earlier on. ____________________
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.05.20 17:41:00 - [136] Originally by: ReaperOfSly Homosexuals are indeed physically capable of procreation, but less likely to do so. And so are academics. Academics have statistically less children than the average population. It does not make having a better education a defect, nor does it make homosexuals being better educated, nor does it make homosexuality a defect. The total amount of genes, the lack of some or the presence of more do not qualify for calling a mutation a defect. The advantages and disadvantages, which a mutation is giving a person do not qualify for it either. In fact, when we humans are being pushed to the edge of existence do we seem to grow strongest, because what does not kill us makes us stronger. It is the right of those who suffer from a defect and when they wish for their suffering to be identified as a defect to call it a defect. It is not your call to make, stupid. -- If there is anything in your life you fear of losing, then keep your mouth shut once in a while.
THE L0CK	Posted - 2009.05.20 17:58:00 - [137] Well so far we've hit this thread with Politics, Religion (vs. the hot topic of evolution), Of course the hot topic of Homosexuality, and a dash of racism. I wonder how many other oope rules we can break today?
FOl2TY8 Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.05.20 18:22:00 - [138] Originally by: Ranbakor Strommgard EDIT: It's liberal trash like you that have already sewn the seeds of anarchy across America. hell we already have a nigger as president. I just wanted to quote this again and say I hope you have a daughter some day and I hope she takes a big black pipe up the ass. Then I hope you have a gay son that goes on to marry a black guy. Then I hope you live a long and healthy life furious with the knowledge that the children you sired are full of black dong at any given moment. Seriously, clean your ears with buckshot. Lock this piece of **** thread, this crap doesn't belong here. ---------- This post brought to you by the worst PVP'er in Eve
soldieroffortune 258 Gallente Imperium Forces	Posted - 2009.05.20 19:54:00 - [139] Edited by: soldieroffortune 258 on 20/05/2009 19:54:57 Originally by: Linked Article The males, meanwhile, are having a party--no, an orgy -- among themselves. Sig removed, the file size image is 24000 bytes and it lacks EVE-related content - Mitnal
Achmed TheDead	Posted - 2009.05.21 09:10:00 - [140] Edited by: Achmed TheDead on 21/05/2009 09:10:17 Mutation or not, the only way to resolve such a 'genetic' occurrence is to stick all gays on an desolated island alone, and all lesbians in my bedroom. this way. the genetic occurrence will not spread.
Tallaran Kouros Caldari Arcane Alliance	Posted - 2009.05.21 09:58:00 - [141] Originally by: Achmed TheDead Edited by: Achmed TheDead on 21/05/2009 09:10:17 Mutation or not, the only way to resolve such a 'genetic' occurrence is to stick all gays on an desolated island alone, and all lesbians in my bedroom. this way. the genetic occurrence will not spread. Uhm, lesbians are gay too y'know...
Mercurye Gallente	Posted - 2009.05.21 11:43:00 - [142] This thread gives me the feeling that people here see homosexuals as an alien species that need to be examined --~--~--~--~ ~NOTE: Freak~
Benco97 Gallente	Posted - 2009.05.21 12:44:00 - [143] Originally by: Mercurye This thread gives me the feeling that people here see homosexuals as an alien species that need to be examined Unfortunately that IS how some people see homosexuals, worse though are the ones that see them as a threat that needs to be exterminated. It's quite upsetting sometimes just knowing that to be yourself is to bring down the ire of the public upon your head (And no, I'm not talking about rainbow coloured swimwear and dancing along the street, that's reserved for Saturdays ) I want to hold the hand of my loved one as we walk down the street, I want to be able to kiss when we go to the cinema or a theme-park or restaurant but in many situations I would be accused of "Rubbing it in people's faces" and such when I'm not trying to do anything of the sort, I'm just trying to be happy and express that happiness, just as heterosexual couples do. Thankfully, things are slowly becoming more tolerant in some places but I still can't walk around town here and do that sort of thing for fear of getting my head caved in. THAT is my problem with it all, I don't care much about marriage rights and such, I just want to be able to be happy with the one I love in public instead of having to hide it. It's normal for two people who love each other to show affection toward each other via touching, closeness, kisses and the things they say, Why would people get ANGRY over that? Originally by: P'uck You're a DUMBASS - bold italic underline at the VERY LEAST.
Mr Reeth	Posted - 2009.05.21 13:01:00 - [144] Originally by: Benco97 Why would people get ANGRY over that? Well most people don't like to see PDAs. I hate it when people get too affectionate in public. It's like watching pron that's been edited for network TV. I think anybody that engages in PDA should be forced to have sex right there on the spot or go to jail!
Benco97 Gallente	Posted - 2009.05.21 13:32:00 - [145] Originally by: Mr Reeth Originally by: Benco97 Why would people get ANGRY over that? Well most people don't like to see PDAs. I hate it when people get too affectionate in public. It's like watching pron that's been edited for network TV. I think anybody that engages in PDA should be forced to have sex right there on the spot or go to jail! Sorry but most people DON'T have a problem with a heterosexual couple holding hands, I can't even do that for fear of retribution. I'm not talking about making out in shop doorways like some stupid teen, I'm talking about behaving like a normal adult couple. Originally by: P'uck You're a DUMBASS - bold italic underline at the VERY LEAST.
Mercurye Gallente	Posted - 2009.05.21 13:50:00 - [146] Originally by: Benco97 Originally by: Mr Reeth Originally by: Benco97 Why would people get ANGRY over that? Well most people don't like to see PDAs. I hate it when people get too affectionate in public. It's like watching pron that's been edited for network TV. I think anybody that engages in PDA should be forced to have sex right there on the spot or go to jail! Sorry but most people DON'T have a problem with a heterosexual couple holding hands, I can't even do that for fear of retribution. I'm not talking about making out in shop doorways like some stupid teen, I'm talking about behaving like a normal adult couple. Yes, its so upsetting that you have to fear violence because of this ( And for those saying its a matter of perception/its in your own head..dull)....you can feel it...I actually had the problem myself with expressing myself in the way I am, and I am not gay but I know how it feels since my "problem" lies near to it I frequently think "Why was I put on this planet...I mean I love Mama Earth..but its inhabitants can be so unreceptive, its hard to justify my excistence if suffering is the pain Ill have to keep carrying" --~--~--~--~ ~NOTE: Freak~
Mr Reeth	Posted - 2009.05.21 15:33:00 - [147] Originally by: Benco97 Sorry but most people DON'T have a problem with a heterosexual couple holding hands, I can't even do that for fear of retribution. I'm not talking about making out in shop doorways like some stupid teen, I'm talking about behaving like a normal adult couple. Just holding hands? Okay, I won't send you to jail. But you really shouldn't feel so oppressed. It seems sometimes that every person on Earth has something about themselves that if they expressed publicly would get them beaten. So, chin up.
Benco97 Gallente	Posted - 2009.05.21 16:03:00 - [148] Originally by: Mr Reeth Just holding hands? Okay, I won't send you to jail. But you really shouldn't feel so oppressed. It seems sometimes that every person on Earth has something about themselves that if they expressed publicly would get them beaten. So, chin up. I know that your message is reassuring and I thank you for that but I have been attacked in the past for "Just holding hands". My boyfriend (Now-ex though due to unrelated matters) and I were attacked in Swansea by a group of youths who were thankfully scared off by some bystanders. Neither of us were seriously hurt but it was still a terrifying experience and one I'll no doubt remember for all my life. Beaten for holding hands. That's why I feel so strongly about it, it's actually happened to me. Originally by: P'uck You're a DUMBASS - bold italic underline at the VERY LEAST.
THE L0CK	Posted - 2009.05.21 16:08:00 - [149] Originally by: Achmed TheDead Edited by: Achmed TheDead on 21/05/2009 09:10:17 Mutation or not, the only way to resolve such a 'genetic' occurrence is to stick all gays on an desolated island alone, and all lesbians in my bedroom. this way. the genetic occurrence will not spread. Good luck with that. You asked for lesbians, not bi-sexuals. They won't let you in on any party fun and I'm not sure where you would benefit in having a mass load of butch women with mullets telling you that you are everything that's wrong with the world today.
FOl2TY8 Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.05.21 16:50:00 - [150] Originally by: Mr Reeth Just holding hands? Okay, I won't send you to jail. But you really shouldn't feel so oppressed. It seems sometimes that every person on Earth has something about themselves that if they expressed publicly would get them beaten. So, chin up. So he should just shut up and take it? I may be missing your point here. ---------- This post brought to you by the worst PVP'er in Eve

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