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Daleth Prem
Dragon Clan Ev0ke
0
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Posted - 2012.05.11 11:27:00 -
[31] - Quote
only glanced over it, but why do you want to make the sacrilege another laser boat instead of a missile boat? |
Archimedes Eratosthenes
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1
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Posted - 2012.05.11 17:52:00 -
[32] - Quote
Daleth Prem wrote:only glanced over it, but why do you want to make the sacrilege another laser boat instead of a missile boat?
Each of these ships are meant to be "templates." I would encourage the creation of more combat/attack ships for each racial hull featuring different weapons or tactics, while still being able full it's general role. However, I would have to lengthen this article about 10 times it's current length to do so. |
Lunkwill Khashour
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
81
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Posted - 2012.05.11 18:37:00 -
[33] - Quote
1. holy dps/ehp/slot/bonus/speed inflation! Surely goals can be met without the increased stats?
2. T1 ships should not have role boni, neither should they be assumed to fly with perfect skills. T1 ships are generalist and/or educational and/or isk efficient ships. Role boni and high sp assumptions shouldn't be necessary and certainly not both. (I'm looking at your bc's)
3. Defensive ships are a very tricky thing to do. A large tank is all dandy but an enemy is always going to attack the low hp/high dps ships first. A defense ship should have a reason why the enemy would want to face the bigger tank but the reason shouldn't be more dps (the attach ships role) This is almost a paradox.
4. The Retribution and the Vengeance (perhaps other ships aswel) resemble each other far too much.
5. The destroyer defensive ability is a bad idea: it is abusable and it removes player freedom and skill(i.e. the other fc has no choices with regard to calling primaries). A pure 'tank' class isn't good game design, other games have shown this before and other games will show this again.
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Archimedes Eratosthenes
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1
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Posted - 2012.05.11 19:05:00 -
[34] - Quote
Lunkwill Khashour wrote: 3. Defensive ships are a very tricky thing to do. A large tank is all dandy but an enemy is always going to attack the low hp/high dps ships first. A defense ship should have a reason why the enemy would want to face the bigger tank but the reason shouldn't be more dps (the attach ships role) This is almost a paradox.
5. The destroyer defensive ability is a bad idea: it is abusable and it removes player freedom and skill(i.e. the other fc has no choices with regard to calling primaries). A pure 'tank' class isn't good game design, other games have shown this before and other games will show this again.
The defensive ship (only two hull sizes) serves the purpose of slowing down an individual kill of enemy attack ships. There is nothing stopping these attack ships from making another target primary. The defense ship simply allows other ships in the fleet to respond to an attack before their prey is destroyed in hopes of catching some of the attack ships before they run.
Also the defense ship should find itself outnumbered by attack ships, as the dps of defense ships is too low to be of any use in numbers. It's truly up to the combat ships and bombardment ships (that are far away) to kill attack vessels if they "hang out" for too long. The enemy should have no incentive to kill a defensive ship first, because it's has extreme tank and low dps. These ships are also rather bad with no logistic support because then they will be primaried by attack ships as well.
Also, I believe tier 1 BC's and up should be balanced at Level 5 skills, not level 4 like all the previous tier 1 hulls. This allows players to develop and experience the game in cheaper hulls and be of good use to serious PvP corps and alliances with only tier 1 level 4 skills for their desired hull. BC's and up on the other hand should seriously require dedication as they become your "signature" hull size.
Lunkwill Khashour wrote: 1. holy dps/ehp/slot/bonus/speed inflation! Surely goals can be met without the increased stats?
2. T1 ships should not have role boni, neither should they be assumed to fly with perfect skills. T1 ships are generalist and/or educational and/or isk efficient ships. Role boni and high sp assumptions shouldn't be necessary and certainly not both. (I'm looking at your bc's)
EHP is inflated way more than dps. This is simply to increase your time-to-live creating a more enjoyable EvE experience. Also dps isn't that much inflated and for ships that have a high dps inflation (attack ships) their tank is quite thin.
2) As I said above, BC's should be balanced on Level 5. Otherwise I balanced all the other tier 1 hulls around level 4 without rigs, this is not hard to accomplish for a new player. So I'd kindly ask that you change your post to make that clear. |
Saladinae
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
5
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Posted - 2012.05.11 23:28:00 -
[35] - Quote
A fun read.
I bet the OP is Yotuo from the blue republic.
Can you make more variance between the tier 2 combat frigates?
Also, the idea of attacking cloaked in Stealth Bombers is a little extreme no?
EDIT: I also recently joined RvB (less than a week ago) and I know what you mean by playing EvE "the way is was meant to be." Although I miss the null sec paranoia Winmatar > Everything else |
Archimedes Eratosthenes
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2012.05.11 23:43:00 -
[36] - Quote
Aerich e'Kieron wrote:That my friend, is a lot of change. I'm practically drowning in it. Perhaps I'll update this post further when my thoughts gather. A lot of change is what we need to end supercap blobs and make it more enjoyable for new players. |
Archimedes Eratosthenes
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2012.05.12 01:40:00 -
[37] - Quote
Saladinae wrote:A fun read.
I bet the OP is Yotuo from the blue republic.
Can you make more variance between the tier 2 combat frigates?
Also, the idea of attacking cloaked in Stealth Bombers is a little extreme no? Would you still be concorked in high sec? At least they can't point targets while cloaked (I'm sure that's how you intended it since you said High Slot modules only can be activated while cloaked?).
EDIT: I also recently joined RvB (less than a week ago) and I know what you mean by playing EvE "the way is was meant to be." Although I miss the null sec paranoia
RED FED BEST FED
EDIT: Correct, the SB's cannot tackle unless they decloak, they also aren't expected to carry a tackling mod. They also don't do much damage to any moving target smaller than a battleship. They are ships meant for area of denial and "sneak attacks" from afar during a fleet battle if the enemy destroyers are not in place with their Defender missiles.
I answered a previous poster about the variety between the tier 2 combat frigs. The diversity in the racial tier 2 combats frigs is huge, the difference between them within their own race is simply more tank OR more gank. Hopefully I can expand on them more. If you have any ideas feel free to post them. |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
728
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Posted - 2012.05.12 03:36:00 -
[38] - Quote
Soooo a cheapy T1 frigate should have more EHP than a Hulk?
That would go over so well... |
Archimedes Eratosthenes
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
3
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Posted - 2012.05.12 03:55:00 -
[39] - Quote
Corina Jarr wrote:Soooo a cheapy T1 frigate should have more EHP than a Hulk? That would go over so well...
Obviously industrial ships will be changed as well, but you needing a starting template from which to balance them. |
Loius Woo
PATRIOT KNIGHTS
28
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Posted - 2012.05.12 04:02:00 -
[40] - Quote
There is so much win here I am not sure where to start.
I guess I will start where I am comfortable, bombers.
Being a bomber pilot I have often fantasized about a "heavy bomber" but had never been able to think of something that wasn't OP. I am pretty excited about your cruiser sized bombers. But, I guess there are other things about this that I don't get.
Are bombers visible if viewed from the correct 3D direction, being 2D they are flat...so that would mean they should be seen from one orthogonal angle but not the other two....
Being able to attack while "cloaked", sounds like a great idea, but what happens when you have like 50 bombers pouring in torps from invisible positions? If the other guy doesn't have the right number of these new destroyers, then they are up the creek so to speak.
...
I guess I like so much of this, but I wish we could discuss different parts in different places.
There are a lot of changes and I like that. I too have been in and out of eve over the years and I have done everything from cap blobs to 1v1 and I have often felt that there were roles missing from the game that should be addressed. One that you added that I like a TON is the defensive ship.
The ability of one ship to provide a defensive shield for ships behind it is awesome, combined with the new bombardment ships is amazing.
This kind of thing provides the complexity needed to end the FOTM Blobs that have plagued eve for way too long. IN my own time it has gone through spider tank BS's, armor hacs, drakes, etc. It is not fun to fit 300 of the same thing and role around.
I think this happens because there is just not enough conditional complexity in combat (like your defensive destroyers coupled with bombardment ships).
In summary, +1
Why hasn't CCP hired you yet? |
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Archimedes Eratosthenes
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
3
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Posted - 2012.05.12 04:29:00 -
[41] - Quote
Loius Woo wrote:There is so much win here I am not sure where to start.
I guess I will start where I am comfortable, bombers.
Being a bomber pilot I have often fantasized about a "heavy bomber" but had never been able to think of something that wasn't OP. I am pretty excited about your cruiser sized bombers. But, I guess there are other things about this that I don't get.
Are bombers visible if viewed from the correct 3D direction, being 2D they are flat...so that would mean they should be seen from one orthogonal angle but not the other two....
Being able to attack while "cloaked", sounds like a great idea, but what happens when you have like 50 bombers pouring in torps from invisible positions? If the other guy doesn't have the right number of these new destroyers, then they are up the creek so to speak.
...
I guess I like so much of this, but I wish we could discuss different parts in different places.
There are a lot of changes and I like that. I too have been in and out of eve over the years and I have done everything from cap blobs to 1v1 and I have often felt that there were roles missing from the game that should be addressed. One that you added that I like a TON is the defensive ship.
The ability of one ship to provide a defensive shield for ships behind it is awesome, combined with the new bombardment ships is amazing.
This kind of thing provides the complexity needed to end the FOTM Blobs that have plagued eve for way too long. IN my own time it has gone through spider tank BS's, armor hacs, drakes, etc. It is not fun to fit 300 of the same thing and role around.
I think this happens because there is just not enough conditional complexity in combat (like your defensive destroyers coupled with bombardment ships).
In summary, +1
Why hasn't CCP hired you yet?
Yes, the bombers would be visible along one orthogonal plane. However you still could not target and damage them, as normal 3D particles cannot interact with them.
If the enemy brought 50 heavy bombers and sieged a PoS you would only need about 8 T2 destroyers to provide a proper missile phalanx and eventual destruction of the heavy bombers. Also T2 destroyers are (in respect to a heavy bomber) very cheap, where these heavy bombers would have a pricetag of around 25% of a carrier, not including modules and ammo. The T2 dessies would cost about what they do now.
Also there is a 30 second align time penalty (with max skills) after launching a torpedo or using your cloaking device, due to the instability of the surrounding space caused by transforming objects in and out of 3D.
So each time you fire a torp, a significantly faster t2 dessie has a 30 second opportunity to find you. Also each time you use a stargate and activate your cloak, you cannot align for 30 seconds (you're expected to be cynoed in by a black ops instead of using stargates). Your losses would be staggering unless you have many black op ships to cyno your 50 heavy bomber fleet out. Also, if they don't cyno you out, you'll run out of cloaking fuel within a couple of hours.
The frigate sized bombers however are much smaller and don't effect space as much. They only suffer a smaller 10 second penalty after launching torps and suffer no problem activating cloak (making it safe to solo and harass via stargates). |
Mors Sanctitatis
Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
482
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Posted - 2012.05.12 04:31:00 -
[42] - Quote
Holy crap that is a lot of detail.
You've clearly put a lot of effort into this. Too bad it's too divergent from the core Eve gameplay and it's concepts.
Introduction of all sorts of modules to patch/gloss over game design flaws etc. isn't going to fix the gameplay. The KISS principle is best: Keep It Simple, Stupid.
A few ideas have merit: the idea of pushing bonuses up to 15-20% per level to really encourage the use of the ship as the design was intended, essentially making the bonus too good to be passed up. The idea of adding in role bonuses to T1 ships to further tailor their specific use and role. I think that ideas such as these could be directly implemented to the existing framework quite well.
Adding in additional complexity with all sorts of new modules etc. when the existing modules and ships aren't balanced doesn't do anything but make the existing situation worse. Focus on using the existing ships/modules with the above concepts and see how far you can get before dreaming up all sorts of 'fix it' modules to shore up poor game design. Intelligence shouldn't be free. -á Mining, reloaded. -á-áADDICTED. |
HOwareyoutoday
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2012.05.12 17:21:00 -
[43] - Quote
I like the idea of bombardment battleships (assuming they only cost as much as a regular battleship now) being able to put out the hurt of current dreadnoughts onto capitals and as well as bombardment frigates and cruisers being able to contribute in the same manner (but far less dps). This is much needed option as these ships would be available to most of the EvE population and would bring an end to the reign of supercaps.
Question... what happens to dreadnoughts themselves after these changes? |
leviticus ander
CATO.nss
150
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Posted - 2012.05.12 22:47:00 -
[44] - Quote
holy crap. biggest OP I've ever seen. |
Vladimiru
Aliastra Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2012.05.13 04:09:00 -
[45] - Quote
This thread is full of win from top to bottom. I was so entranced I actually read the entire thing.
CCP hire this man
+1 Tag as favourite
Now onto my "Miners: How to make money during Hulkageddon" thread. |
Azshann
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2012.05.13 18:24:00 -
[46] - Quote
CCP should at least use this as a model on how to balance the game if not implement it entirely. |
Archimedes Eratosthenes
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
6
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Posted - 2012.05.13 22:33:00 -
[47] - Quote
HOwareyoutoday wrote:I like the idea of bombardment battleships (assuming they only cost as much as a regular battleship now) being able to put out the hurt of current dreadnoughts onto capitals and as well as bombardment frigates and cruisers being able to contribute in the same manner (but far less dps). This is much needed option as these ships would be available to most of the EvE population and would bring an end to the reign of supercaps.
Question... what happens to dreadnoughts themselves after these changes?
Also to that guy above me, this game needs more diversity on the battlefield itself. They may as well call this game "Battlecruisers Online - The Drakes Flight through the Hurricane"
Yes these battleship hulls would cost no more than they do now, facilitating the end of the super cap blobs. Right now regular players do not have the means to take out supercaps with super cap support, these bombardment battleships are precisely the answer to that.
Dreadnought dps remains the same but it gets more EHP (about 7.5 million ehp would be the expected value ) to match the EHP inflation of subcaps and gains the ability to tackle other caps and super caps and receive remote reps while doing so. Siege mode would be removed and just giving them a raw dps increase instead. These should be combat vessels, not bombardment vessels. Whether or not they should be able to blap battleships I haven't decided on yet. |
Abduakla
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2012.05.16 06:05:00 -
[48] - Quote
Gentlemen, as CCP has stated themselves that they want Combat/Attack/Bombardment ship lines witth 18th century ship of the lines as their inspiration, then I would recommend that you +1 and have this submitted to the Assembly Hall. This is a great starting platform for a redesign of ship combat in EvE in the direction that CCP themselves has chosen.
If you want to balance this game, it has to start from the bottom, at tier 1 frigates, not at the top with capitals. Then you work your way up, except this time you know all the ships and roles you want to perfect, instead of having roles and ships added little by little with each expansion.
+1 this or CCP will get it wrong |
Reina Supremus
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2012.05.16 20:48:00 -
[49] - Quote
Either they follow through with their concept of Ship Lines and use the OP's thread as a starting point or they should abandon the idea entirely and make tweaks to ships without overhauling the system.
In other words, if they are going to overhaul EVERYTHING in the manner of the Dev Bog and fan fest video, they should take the OP's suggestion. Otherwise scrap the idea and just make it so unused ships will be used without changing the ships that work.
+1 For effort |
Le Dei Opus
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2012.05.22 06:18:00 -
[50] - Quote
+1
CCP would gain tons of subscribers with this change as well, maybe people start playing this game expecting fleet battles that are somewhat in the way the OP envisions, but are ultimately disappointed. Also, CCP themselves announced they want to move in this direction, may as well use this a starting point instead of balancing mining frigates. |
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Serina Tsukaya
Lonetrek Trade and Industries Test Friends Please Ignore
5
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Posted - 2012.05.22 12:19:00 -
[51] - Quote
Archimedes Eratosthenes wrote: In EvE there is a concept of Rock, Paper, Scissors.
Nope?
If eve were to become a rock paper scissors game then it would break. You'd turn combat into countering the hard counter for the hard counter for the hard counter of a hard counter, and there would be no room for the players finding out what they want to fly, and having other alliances have to figure out how to counter that setup in a way that works for them. If you put a X > Y > Z > X Pattern on the entire ship design line of thought, then you might as well make eve a game of chess, only a lot less fun.
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Gibbo3771
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
88
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Posted - 2012.05.22 12:34:00 -
[52] - Quote
a lot of reading in this and I read the majority of it before I came to my conclusion that its all good IF you were recreating eve all over again and calling it something else.
Currently as it is, you implement this and the entire game changes and will most likely break. Everytime you dont like my comments/posts the terrorists win and your a disgrace to your country. |
Archimedes Eratosthenes
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
32
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Posted - 2012.05.22 20:01:00 -
[53] - Quote
Serina Tsukaya wrote:Archimedes Eratosthenes wrote: In EvE there is a concept of Rock, Paper, Scissors.
Nope? If eve were to become a rock paper scissors game then it would break. You'd turn combat into countering the hard counter for the hard counter for the hard counter of a hard counter, and there would be no room for the players finding out what they want to fly, and having other alliances have to figure out how to counter that setup in a way that works for them. If you put a X > Y > Z > X Pattern on the entire ship design line of thought, then you might as well make eve a game of chess, only a lot less fun. Obviously you haven't read even the first 3-4 posts of the thread, because you'd see that all of the counters are "soft." |
Archimedes Eratosthenes
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
32
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Posted - 2012.05.22 20:04:00 -
[54] - Quote
Gibbo3771 wrote:a lot of reading in this and I read the majority of it before I came to my conclusion that its all good IF you were recreating eve all over again and calling it something else.
Currently as it is, you implement this and the entire game changes and will most likely break.
Sir that is precisely what this game needs. With DUST 514 coming you'd see a massive sub increase as many people would also try out EvE for the first time and they would be more impressed than the current version, which should be called "EVE - Reign of the Battlecruisers." |
Archimedes Eratosthenes
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
39
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Posted - 2012.05.29 01:02:00 -
[55] - Quote
So I'll be posting the next section soon! |
TomyLobo
Posthuman Society Elysian Empire
16
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Posted - 2012.06.03 03:10:00 -
[56] - Quote
Holy wall of text. |
Garviel Tarrant
Aces -N- Eights Excuses.
2
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Posted - 2012.06.03 03:21:00 -
[57] - Quote
Some good suggestions
Some absolutely terrible ones
In the end too much pointless stat inflation. |
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