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How Do You Spot a Market Bot at Work?

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The Bede	Posted - 2009.05.21 13:24:00 - [1] I'm trying to figure out if I suddenly have a new energetic competitor in the Tech 1 buy order business in Dodixie or I'm playing against a bot: 1. He's always on; 2. Price updates occur frequently, usually within an hour or two but never immediately after I update (which I would expect if he was camping the buy order live); 3. Updates seem to happen across multiple buy orders on different goods in a short time frame. So what else should I be looking for? If I decide to file a petition, what kind of proof is persuasive? Thanks.
Krathos Morpheus Gallente Legion Infernal Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.05.21 13:36:00 - [2] Edited by: Krathos Morpheus on 21/05/2009 13:43:13 Quote: How Do You Spot a Market Bot at Work? Looking for previous threads could give you a hint, also you should know that here we have a game that it is called "Close the thread with the bot word on it" and it is very very hard to win at it. Edit: hints will tell you that sadly you have no way to prove it. Also it is thought that neither CCP can. They center their efforts towards RMT because that can be proved, so only way I see it working is if your rival has RMT connections and that is not up to you to be proved. EVE Knowledge
The Bede	Posted - 2009.05.21 13:43:00 - [3] Yeah, I just looked at previous threads on the topic. Not really encouraging, is it? What is RMT?
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries	Posted - 2009.05.21 13:44:00 - [4] real money trade Quote: The SCC-LOUNGE is now offering Secure Commerce Services @ www.scc-lounge.wordpress.com
Hellsanne Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2009.05.21 13:46:00 - [5] cant prove that, but i can tell you when i was ill, i sat whole day in front of pc and was toping my orders every while and i am sure that also this could look like the word which we dont say :)
The Bede	Posted - 2009.05.21 13:58:00 - [6] Yeah, I agree. I've had days where I camp my orders all day long and would give the same appearance-but the thing that makes this different, I think, is that the activity seems to happen on thinly traded items where the margin goes away if you get in a .01 arms race with someone else. If this was happening on 1600MM Steel plates or Hammerhead Is, I wouldn't notice, but it's the 10 transactions per week items where this guy is updating within an hour or two. That strikes me as odd behavior for someone just coming into the market. These are normally "set the fishing line and come back in a few days" orders for me. I assume they would be for any other normal player. Look, I may just be getting beat by a more devoted player, but it doesn't feel that's what's happening.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.05.21 14:01:00 - [7] If there is one thing I've learned in my time buying and selling internet space ships, its that you never underestimate the amount of time some people have.
Dzil Caldari Second Quadrant Ice Division	Posted - 2009.05.21 14:50:00 - [8] Hi Bede, welcome to MD. Around here, we call those that appear to update orders incessantly 24 hours a day "John Doe"s. This strikes a compromise between allowing us to discuss the behaviour and potential counterpractices, while not violating a bunch of forum rules. ------------------------------ In EVE, when someone undercuts you, they're a lemming. When you undercut someone else, it's skill/effort/manipulation.
Midas Man Caldari Dzark Innovations	Posted - 2009.05.21 15:06:00 - [9] Originally by: The Bede If this was happening on 1600MM Steel plates or Hammerhead Is, I wouldn't notice, but it's the 10 transactions per week items where this guy is updating within an hour or two. That strikes me as odd behavior for someone just coming into the market. Large volume trading is set and forget even if you get undercut by a large order it will sell out quickly and your stock will start to sell. Market fluctuations will ensure your product goes. Small volume items require more efforrt in updating if some one undercuts you with one items it could take a while for their product to sell leaving plenty of time for more to be listed. you need to therefore by lowest price constantly to catch that 1 customer. B o t h (spaces to avoid thread lock ) your view and the view I just put across are correct that the fun with trading you can rarely be 100% sure what your competitors motives are and so every movement you make is a gamble and a challenge.
Claire Voyant	Posted - 2009.05.21 15:25:00 - [10] There was a great thread a while back where someone defeated the "john doe" trader. Namely, he found the identity of the other trader then found his location using a locater agent. Then he went to the that station and opened a trade window with him. When that worked, he petitioned it as an exploit and posted it on the forum and actually managed to get the other guy to pretty much confess to what he was doing on the forum thread.
dulcinea arlette	Posted - 2009.05.21 17:10:00 - [11] You all have forced me to do this. I really hate it but I've got to... BOT REPEAT BOT, BECAUSE IT IS A BOT Please report bots to ccp who's bot will look at the bot logs to see if a bot is == bot. If not the bot is allowed to live... today. I promise I'll never say it again. <--My fingers have Tourettes shrug
mrmanalt	Posted - 2009.05.21 17:11:00 - [12] Originally by: Claire Voyant There was a great thread a while back where someone defeated the "john doe" trader. Namely, he found the identity of the other trader then found his location using a locater agent. Then he went to the that station and opened a trade window with him. When that worked, he petitioned it as an exploit and posted it on the forum and actually managed to get the other guy to pretty much confess to what he was doing on the forum thread. That is hot.
Gunny Sergeant	Posted - 2009.05.21 17:27:00 - [13] I hadn't even considered the possibility of having bot traders... wow. If somebody were to see how I update orders, they might take me to be a bot. I am a college student, so a good portion of the day whether I be in class or at my place, I have access to Eve. All it takes is like 5 minutes every few hours to update orders to make a decent living from trades. How do you guys suggest we root out these evil suckers?
Dzil Caldari Second Quadrant Ice Division	Posted - 2009.05.21 18:00:00 - [14] Combatting John Doe can be done in one of three ways: 1. Report him. A GM would assumably take the time to observe John's actions in meta game ways that you can't. However, given that Macro-mining is technically allowable, I can't see how macro "trading" would not be. 2. Outsmart him. Force his orders into bad margins, and either buy him out or leave him making nothing. If he's trading the product of some other manufacture - manipulate up/down the chain, so that his preset limits are no longer good. 3. Jam him up. While spamming would be out of bounds (you don't want to go down for harassment), opening a single trade window is not. I'd recommend 2 - it's the least likely to cause any trouble down the road with a GM, and you might actually make a profit on top. ------------------------------ In EVE, when someone undercuts you, they're a lemming. When you undercut someone else, it's skill/effort/manipulation.
The Bede	Posted - 2009.05.21 18:53:00 - [15] Quote: 2. Outsmart him. Force his orders into bad margins, and either buy him out or leave him making nothing. If he's trading the product of some other manufacture - manipulate up/down the chain, so that his preset limits are no longer good. This, I think. Thanks.
Zezzix	Posted - 2009.05.21 19:01:00 - [16] I confess my stupidity: I had to look up "trading window." I never knew this was a possibility. I like the strategy very much. Look forward to trying it out on the John Does trading in Jita 4-4. Is it just a matter of convincing them to confess, or does it prove that no one is minding the store while trades are being registered on the market?
Dzil Caldari Second Quadrant Ice Division	Posted - 2009.05.21 19:10:00 - [17] Originally by: Zezzix I confess my stupidity: I had to look up "trading window." I never knew this was a possibility. I like the strategy very much. Look forward to trying it out on the John Does trading in Jita 4-4. Is it just a matter of convincing them to confess, or does it prove that no one is minding the store while trades are being registered on the market? I believe the theory was that the trade window popped up over the market window, interfering with John Doe's actions. Since he's just a mindless dolt, his operations suddenly come to a grinding halt. This has the short term benefit that your orders start to get ahead, and the long term potential to expose him for what he is. ------------------------------ In EVE, when someone undercuts you, they're a lemming. When you undercut someone else, it's skill/effort/manipulation.
Companion Qube	Posted - 2009.05.21 20:19:00 - [18] Here's another thing I've found helpful when dealing with Johns - keep your pimp or some other security handy, that way if things get rou... OH, YOU MEAN THOSE JOHNS. Seriously, look for edge case scenarios that they don't handle well. Most of these ~~macros~~Johns are programmed to do limited things very well (0.01 orders every 5 minutes for example) but aren't programmed to look for special cases. Here's an example: I buy covering a few major mission hubs using an n-jump order, last weekend I noticed someone had fired up the 0.01 John and was taking all of the volume. There's no practical way to beat a John at the 0.01 game (and why would you bother?) so I started looking for holes. It turned out that the John would only cover orders that also covered his trade location, so I dropped one order (about 100isk more than the current john price) on each important mission station. The John didn't do a single update to cover my orders, in fact, it took about two days before the guy running the John even noticed my orders and had to raise his prices by hand. I can compete with that pretty easily, especially since he does his order updates about the same time each day. End result? I use 3 or 4 times as many order slots and I take 90% of the volume. On top of that I've made his John irrelevant. Also, if you can't beat a John try slashing and burning his market - get him up to the point where he's only making 3% (or less) on his items and backstop him there with orders so he doesn't drop his buy prices. I've had guys straight up give-up after I did that to them for a couple weeks. Even with some software help it's not worth their time to trade these items - especially if they have to do any hauling to resell them.
small chimp	Posted - 2009.05.21 20:23:00 - [19] There is one annoying guy around doxie area which seems to be a little "john doeis'h" and his orders always end with 0.62isk. I would wardec or suicide gank him but he is in a noob corp and never undocks. Also he is ignoring eve-mail and chat requests. :(
Ugly Eric	Posted - 2009.05.21 21:22:00 - [20] I fightes ja john once by buying charred micro circuits in volume of about 1 million peaces. I had a lots of luck too, but heres what I did. I went in to the 0.01 isk game so long, that I had about 900k peaces of charred micro circuits. The buy order was region wide. I started with the price of 20.31 isk /peace. When I had the pile of about 900k charred microcircuits, the price had come up to about 28 isk. Then I raised the buy order aggresively. I lifted it up to 45 isk. Johnnie boy came up to 45.01. I lifted to 50. He came to 50.01. I searched hes limit, and when I had Johnnie up to hes limit, i cancelled my buyorder, and sold all of my charred micro circuits to johnnieboy. The real harm was, that the money I made here was wery small, and therefore the money johnnie lost was wery small, but newertheless, that is one deacent way to beat those damn ... johnnieboys... Ugly
Kyle Nav	Posted - 2009.05.22 06:23:00 - [21] Oh oh i love this one, John doe pays monthly bill to ccp player 1 pays monthly bill to ccp john doe doesnt get banned because he pays ccp john doe transfers isk to new account ccp subtracts isk new account is still being paid for CCP = profit
small chimp	Posted - 2009.05.25 09:08:00 - [22] I am really disappointed. I spotted an active trading which does actively and tirelessly good job and making stuff available for us buyers. I decided to thank him for his heroic efforts but sadly he is ignoring all incoming communication. Well I opened a trade window with him and offered him 30 million isk. He just kept ignoring it while he was still updating his orders. Maybe he was just so concentrated on his activities that he wasnt able to notice? Should I try perhaps with a free marauder for him? Would that get his attention?
Juno Imaginos	Posted - 2009.05.25 09:17:00 - [23] Originally by: small chimp There is one annoying guy around doxie area which seems to be a little "john doeis'h" and his orders always end with 0.62isk. I would wardec or suicide gank him but he is in a noob corp and never undocks. Also he is ignoring eve-mail and chat requests. :( That actually sounds a lot like me, aside from ignoring communications. I rarely undock and I always end my orders with the same weird fraction. I do that just to help me scan through the market details on my wares. Having a such a fraction makes it easier to spot my orders from the masses. And since I never engage in the penny wars it doesn't really hurt me in any way. Annoying, quite possibly. Sign of a john doe, not necessarily.
small chimp	Posted - 2009.05.25 11:38:00 - [24] We could play russian roulette with john does. Let's offer expensive items to them, like marauders and officer mods while they are doing their job. :)
Caleb Ayrania Gallente TarNec Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.05.26 15:47:00 - [25] Since this is a topic that have a hard time on forums, and mentally is haunting the serious traders I want to risk the lock. Last night we had a rather long and extensive iscussion about John in the scc-lounge. We even came up with a few ideas on methods ccp could help combat this issue. Limit options for an automated system using the markets , by opening the limitation to active players and locking and making it harder for the former. Station order limit instead of skill limit. Timed order update limit, using order sheets. Making trade more impacted by standing; ..number of orders per station Player to player embargo, Toll, and Boycutt system. With these a John Doe would need to move around from station to station to update and set orders, a thing he really hates and wont do. HE would need to build standing with npc corps, either hirering grinders or working missions himself. He could no longer put in orders every minute, but would need to wait for the station time limit. (this would be per station time limit preferably) Last with a player to player Toll and embargo option he would need to speak to other players to build reputation, or suffer the downsides. For a few detailed ideas on standing based features and things that would make it less fun for Doe to "play" see this (tl;dr) list of ideas. - Money is Love - Sometimes it just gets bend the wrong ways. Feed your Brain: Innovation Thread
The Bede	Posted - 2009.05.26 18:03:00 - [26] I think a "captcha" every 50 or so market order updates would be a quick fix. At least until the John Doe programmers figured out how to fool the captcha program.
Krathos Morpheus Gallente Legion Infernal Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.05.26 18:43:00 - [27] Originally by: Caleb Ayrania Station order limit instead of skill limit. What should we do with the current skills? Quote: Timed order update limit, using order sheets. There are a time limit already, what do you mean by "using order sheets"? Quote: Making trade more impacted by standing; ..number of orders per station Again what are the skills for? Quote: Player to player embargo, Toll, and Boycutt system. No comments, I'd like to see the promised frontshops instead. Quote: With these a John Doe would need to move around from station to station to update and set orders, a thing he really hates and wont do. Do you know that skill called daytrading? I think there are others helping him too, check the market. Quote: HE would need to build standing with npc corps, either hirering grinders or working missions himself. I really don't know why you mayus HE, everyone would need to, killing trader's alts and raising the entry fee for the market, disallowing new ppl (one of the best things of it now imo). Quote: He could no longer put in orders every minute, but would need to wait for the station time limit. (this would be per station time limit preferably) same_as_everybody_else,sohewillhavethesamequoteofmarket_Damn!_myspacebarisnotworking!** Quote: Last with a player to player Toll and embargo option he would need to speak to other players to build reputation, or suffer the downsides. Few ppl cares about who buys or who are buying from as long as they get their sales. If it is cheaper, he will get the sales, there are a lot of ppl out there, only thing toll and embargo is good for is market manipulation. Quote:** For a few detailed ideas on standing based features and things that would make it less fun for Doe to "play" see this (tl;dr) list of ideas. I have not read all topics there, but at first chance it looks like all ideas you're posting around here all the time, forgive me if I'm wrong (I don't feel like reading the wall right now, maybe I'll read it later), but posting your ideas again and again and again will not lead to them being more accepted or us liking more the way you want the market to be. EVE Knowledge
Caleb Ayrania Gallente TarNec Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.05.26 22:39:00 - [28] @Krathos Morpheus Kinda like you did a blanket disagreement there.. Hmm repeating myself.. Maybe, but in this particular case I was simply trying to see what ideas could be used to make automation harder. Since most of my ideologies are focused on more pvp and more social interaction I can say that I honestly believe more of these things will benefit all players. I am sorry if I left out detailed outlines for the ideas, they where simply attempts to figure out a method to make automation harder, how the current skills would be changed and used in such a scenario is ofc going to need a bit of thought. The remote setting of orders is an in space thing, so I doubt John use this. Oh ofc he could then move out into space to work his orders, but that is not likely since he would be a sitting duck in space. Leaning on status quo is not helping imo. Sure the system we have is what we are used to, and changes are frustrating. I just would like some of the blantant misbalances and holes open to abuse to be considered. - Money is Love - Sometimes it just gets bend the wrong ways. Feed your Brain: Innovation Thread
Krathos Morpheus Gallente Legion Infernal Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.05.27 00:14:00 - [29] Originally by: Caleb Ayrania The remote setting of orders is an in space thing, so I doubt John use this. Not that way, they can be used in station, I use daytrading to change orders across the region from the same station. The thing with bots is that any system wich counts the time you put there updating orders will favour them. Since CCP favours active trading, I see no easy way to nerf them without hurting players. Any change you can think of will be adopted by the next bot generation, so only way to hurt them will be nerfing active trading. EVE Knowledge
Tesal	Posted - 2009.05.27 02:38:00 - [30] Originally by: Krathos Morpheus Originally by: Caleb Ayrania The remote setting of orders is an in space thing, so I doubt John use this. Not that way, they can be used in station, I use daytrading to change orders across the region from the same station. The thing with bots is that any system wich counts the time you put there updating orders will favour them. Since CCP favours active trading, I see no easy way to nerf them without hurting players. Any change you can think of will be adopted by the next bot generation, so only way to hurt them will be nerfing active trading. The reason most market bots are banned from trading in certain ways in real life isn't because they chew up markets, its because they crash them with preset conditions that automatically execute without a thinking trader who can understand the results. Another thing to think about. A person running a bot probably has large amounts of isk. You can effectively control his market behavior by forcing his orders up or down, so you can control the price without having to actually risk anything of your own. The only thing better than a lemming is a robot lemming. Also, what happens when 2 bots meet each other? That would be funny.

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