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Eternum Praetorian
Malum Crusis
786
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 18:52:00 -
[1] - Quote
How Much RR Is Too Much RR?
It is my belief that anything that prevents PVPGÇÖers from dieing in mass is bad for the game. Observe the logistic ship, a vessel that has no stacking penalty to itGÇÖs LARGE RR mods, and can fit 4-5 of them depending on your build. That is an awful lot of healing space wizards. Now before you get all GÇ£cry more logiGÇÖs are so easy to counterGÇ¥, lets just look at some numbers first shall we?
1 guardian is equivalent to a 5-6 man battleship fleetGÇÖs worth of remote repair on a single target (target ship plus fleet mates). Using an Armageddon as an example, a geddon does roughly 1,000 DPS and can repair at a rate of 213 if it has one other geddon in gang. What that means is that if you have 2 geddons fighting 2 other geddons, they are dealing 2,000 DPS and only repairing 213
End resultGǪ death happens.
Now, lets say you have a fleet of 5 ArmageddonGÇÖs fighting another fleet of 5. DPS output is 5,000 and the RR rate is 851. End result, people are still dieing within the 1min aggression envelops given on stations or stargates. GameGǪ is balanced.
Enter The Logistics Ship
1 Guardian can rep 1 Armageddon to a tank of 851, and since they are designed to come in pairs the actual RR rate for a pair of guardians at logi Lv 4 will be around 1,700. If you add a second Armageddon that tank becomes 1,900, which is nearly EQUAL to the out going DPS. This is not balanced.
If a fleet of 5 ArmageddonGÇÖs engages another fleet of 5, and each side has 2 logistics ship, the out going DPS remains around 5,000 where as the repair rate of each fleet is now 2,900 (verses EM-Therm) So you are repairing 3/5ths of the incoming damage, on ships that have around 120+ EHP. This is simply not enough outgoing DPS Vs tank to result in death in 60 seconds. Null sec, low sec or empireGǪ. It is not enough. Furthermore, it gets even worse when we start talking about capital ships and near to invulnerable AHACs.
1. Counter Them With ECM
Once ECM jammer with perfect skills, on a guardian with base skills will only score a jam 36% of the time for 15 seconds. A guardian has enough capacitor to continue repairing for 1min 8 seconds once the capacitor chain drops, that means that tanked falcons are of only limited effect.
2. Counter with Remote Sensor Damps
With perfect skills a battleship can drop a guardians rep to 46KM which is still well outside of DPS range. It also forces the battleship to drop point, web, cap recharger or MWDGǪ and only the Tempest is capable of doing that effectively, the rest simply do not have the slots. 2x damps brings the targeting ange down to 29KM, which is still plenty far for ships with such a tiny signature radius to avoid heavy incoming damage. Especially since each guardian can repair 2,000 DPS overheated.
3. Counter With Neuts
You need a minimum of 6 heavy energy neutralizers on a guardian in order to drop the guardians RR rate below 1 min with 3 large repair mods on, and one turned off. Made irrelevant since heavy neuts have a limited range and take up a highslot that must be reserved for battleship RR.
Conclusion; our GÇ£viable countermeasuresGÇ¥ are only moderately effective under perfect circumstances.
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Eternum Praetorian
Malum Crusis
786
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 18:52:00 -
[2] - Quote
A More Balanced EVE
Is the one reflected in the DPS Vs RR tank numbers, of battleships fitting one large remote repair module. That is what needs to happen in order for people to actually die when they fight. Death is good for the game and it is good for the economy. The RR numbers Vs DPS output of a gang with logistics ships in it are NOT balanced if inevitable death in PVP is the goal.
Bringing Logistics Ships In Line With Other Ships In EVE (is surprisingly simple and strait forward)
Make them use mods that are appropriate for their size. These are not GÇ£tierGÇ¥ three ships that are paper thin and designed to use battleship class modules, they are remote repair dedicated healing space wizard. Four MEDIUM remote repair modules gives an Armageddon a tank of 475 which is slightly greater then 2 large remote repair modules. That means that two guardians would give an Armageddon an overall tank of 945 DPS, which is still a 200 DPS greater tank then a single guardian can deal now (or 4 large remote repair modules)
RR range would be at 51 KM in stead of 74, and the cap transfer rate for medium energy transfer Array IIGÇÖs would be 55km. Neuts would become more viable, because if the guardian pilot has logistics LV 5, you only need two heavy energy neutralizers to drop the cap stability below 1 min with all reps active.
CCP, senseGǪ does it make some?
For a ships that are as small as logistics ships, the usage of medium class modules in place of large only makes sense. More so, death is good for the economy and it is good for the game as a whole. People need to feel eve for what it really is, and not get caught up in a safety net that breeds risk adverse PVPGÇÖers in empire, in low sec and in null sec alike.
In a previous dev blog you mentioned that GÇ£EVEGÇÖs economy is not healthyGÇ¥, well neither is itGÇÖs state of non-blob style PVP although the effects are less apparent. Since EVE Online seems meant to have more then on style of PVP, please take this into consideration. The outgoing DPS vs. RR tank vs. aggression timers need to be better balance with respect to one another. When a BS gang fields RR the DPS increase is exponential with each ship, and it far out weighs the increase in rep rate. Currently, logistics ships blow this balance out of the water, and they lead to forms of game play that are not in EVEGÇÿs best interests. In EVE, ships need to explode and people need to die. Nuff said. Making a change like this would go a long way in terms of balancing EVEGÇÖs PVP mechanics as a whole.
Thank you for your time.
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ElQuirko
Gravit Negotii Rogue Elements.
672
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 18:54:00 -
[3] - Quote
Counter: Shoot it CISPA - Readin' your secret corptheft mails since 2012 |

Eternum Praetorian
Malum Crusis
786
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 18:56:00 -
[4] - Quote
ElQuirko wrote:Counter: Shoot it
You really should try reading more, you may fight that you enjoy it. It beets, say... just posting random prerecorded **** all of the time.
|

Sister Rhode
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
44
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 19:01:00 -
[5] - Quote
Bad idea. Logistics makes fights fun and strategic, and last longer.
They already have plenty of counters.
I fly logi primarily in fleet fights, and there are plenty of times where I am ecm'd out of a fight entirely.
The only people that don't like logi are people who don't have friends. |

Eternum Praetorian
Malum Crusis
786
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 19:03:00 -
[6] - Quote
Sister Rhode wrote:Logistics makes fights fun and strategic, and last longer.
No one said that logistics should stop doing this, but the out going rep rate vs incoming DPS for all fleet types in EVE needs to be adjusted. More death is better for the game. Less deaggression tactics makes PVP more meaningful.
|

masternerdguy
Inner Shadow NightSong Directorate
486
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 19:05:00 -
[7] - Quote
Logi isn't nearly strong enough IMO. I'd increase their rep power by 2.5x. Things are only impossible until they are not. |

Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4226
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 19:09:00 -
[8] - Quote
"1400mm Howitzer Artillery II" "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |

Terajima Kazumi
Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
52
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 19:10:00 -
[9] - Quote
You forgot Counter by shooting the logistics. |

OMGFRIGATES WARPOUT
Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.
28
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 19:21:00 -
[10] - Quote
Using your numbers here.
1. 2 sides each with 5 Armageddon's and each with 2 Guardians repping 1700 of the incoming damage with the damage output being 2000.
2. Side one has a half assed FC calling the shots and begins to primary one of the 'geddons.
3. Side two has a more knowledgable FC and calls Guardian A primary dropping the avalibility of the repping power to 851. Call goes out for an overheat of damage upping the damage output to 2750 (which in effect due to the size and natural bonuses of the guardian the incoming damage would be probally half of that so call it 1100 dps)
4. 1100 dps incoming vs 851 damage repped and Guardian A is quickly dispatched. Guardian B has no cap transfer and can no longer maintain stability and choosing correctly as he isn't aggressed and jumps the gate.
5. Side 1 looses 2 more 'geddons before they can successfully de-aggress and Side 2 is left to loot the field.
I believe we have balance. |

Callic Veratar
Power of the Phoenix
222
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 19:21:00 -
[11] - Quote
What you're suggesting would be that the logis get medium RR only, that means there's an open role for a large and a small logi. While a battleship class logistics vessel might be cool in theory, such a beast would be able to carry a small fleet even better than the cruisers.
What I think needs to happen here is that neuts and damps need a bit of a buff, or, even better, use them in a combination of ECM and damps to shut down a single ship for a long time.
This is the problem with scaling though, bringing 2 logis in a 7 man fleet is overkill, which is why it works. And if you're running into that too often, find a way to break it, there's always a counter. How about a Falcon and Arazu? |

Just Alter
Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
105
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 19:38:00 -
[12] - Quote
This thread is really bad, even for gd standards.
Logis are completely fine, there's no need to mess with them. |

Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
1427
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 19:48:00 -
[13] - Quote
Eternum Praetorian wrote: That is an awful lot of healing space wizards.
I'm not a WOW player so I could be wrong here, but shouldn't it be Cleric?
Mr Epeen 
Me too!-á I ate one sour, too! |

Doctor Mabuse
Republic University Minmatar Republic
12
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 19:50:00 -
[14] - Quote
Logis used to only have medium reps.
No-one flew them. Your idea would remove a ship line and tactic from the game |

Antisocial Malkavian
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
85
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 19:55:00 -
[15] - Quote
Terajima Kazumi wrote:You forgot Counter by shooting the logistics.
getting pissed at ppl for pointing out the obvious doesnt make it less obvious OR wrong.
http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.2317/JKES0811.17.1 Bees That Drink Human Tears -- ITS SCIENCE!!! |

My Neutral Toon
Knights Who Til Recently Said Ni
95
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 19:56:00 -
[16] - Quote
OP must have been recently raped by a fleet that had logi and was following an FC that didn't know how to counter it.   ...Can't. Tell. If ...Troll? Or Serious....
Butt Hurt about Harrasment? Read first GM post: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=88362&find=unread |

Eternum Praetorian
Malum Crusis
786
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 20:27:00 -
[17] - Quote
My Neutral Toon wrote:OP must have been recently raped by a fleet that had logi and was following an FC that didn't know how to counter it.  
Funny, I was thinking more like "Look at all the PVP bears not wanting to get rid of their risk adverse I win button, and lose a few ships each fight".
|

Eternum Praetorian
Malum Crusis
786
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 20:55:00 -
[18] - Quote
OMGFRIGATES WARPOUT wrote:Using your numbers here.
1. 2 sides each with 5 Armageddon's and each with 2 Guardians repping 1700 of the incoming damage with the damage output being 2000.
2. Side one has a half assed FC calling the shots and begins to primary one of the 'geddons.
3. Side two has a more knowledgable FC and calls Guardian A primary dropping the avalibility of the repping power to 851. Call goes out for an overheat of damage upping the damage output to 2750 (which in effect due to the size and natural bonuses of the guardian the incoming damage would be probally half of that so call it 1100 dps)
4. 1100 dps incoming vs 851 damage repped and Guardian A is quickly dispatched. Guardian B has no cap transfer and can no longer maintain stability and choosing correctly as he isn't aggressed and jumps the gate.
5. Side 1 looses 2 more 'geddons before they can successfully de-aggress and Side 2 is left to loot the field.
I believe we have balance.
A game mechanic balanced on who has the stupidest FC. Winning?
|

Eternum Praetorian
Malum Crusis
786
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 20:57:00 -
[19] - Quote
Doctor Mabuse wrote:Logis used to only have medium reps.
No-one flew them. Your idea would remove a ship line and tactic from the game
They would still have plenty of use, they just would not be able to act as the life guards of the sandbox in the same way that do now.
|

Spurty
D00M. Northern Coalition.
259
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 21:06:00 -
[20] - Quote
ElQuirko wrote:Counter: Shoot it
Works well when there's only 2, but when you see 10+ fielded, you are dead long before you start making a dent.
I too dislike oversized modules on ships.
When was the last time a micro- shield extender was viable?
I know you're laughing. This was what we all thought about afterburners. And now, a very valid module.
why put all of these modules into the game, then create a world where there is no place for them?
I support the essence of what the op is saying. Respectfully disagree on some points for balance so included my supporting ideology for classes and modules.
---- CONCORD arrested two n00bs yesterday, one was drinking battery acid, the other was eating fireworks. They charged one and let the other one off. |

Brock Khan
The Kings of Frog Island Rebel Alliance of New Eden
30
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 22:11:00 -
[21] - Quote
hahahhaaa sounds like someone doesnt have logi support in corp or alliance, and comes here to cry to ccp to make the game fun for just him. what a self entitled snow flake.
P.S. contract me your stuff before you quit |

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
672
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 22:12:00 -
[22] - Quote
Andski wrote:"1400mm Howitzer Artillery II" Nothing like good old 1400mms. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |

Lipbite
Express Hauler
24
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 22:27:00 -
[23] - Quote
As logistics pilot I want to thank those who added 1-5 "likes" already to counter-argument answers to this post - which didn't got a single "like" yet. |

Sarah Schneider
PonyWaffe Test Alliance Please Ignore
62
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 00:02:00 -
[24] - Quote
Andski wrote:"1400mm Howitzer Artillery II" not emptyquoting.
Also, why's this on General Discussion? |

Alicia Fermi
Cabbit Powered Internet Spaceships
22
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 00:10:00 -
[25] - Quote
Sarah Schneider wrote:Andski wrote:"1400mm Howitzer Artillery II" not emptyquoting. Also, why's this on General Discussion? Where else does one shiptoast?
|

Lady Starfire
State War Academy Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 00:49:00 -
[26] - Quote
On kdotcom or failheap? |

Eternum Praetorian
Malum Crusis
787
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 01:19:00 -
[27] - Quote
Brock Khan wrote:hahahhaaa sounds like someone doesnt have logi support in corp or alliance, and comes here to cry to ccp to make the game fun for just him. what a self entitled snow flake.
On the contrary I can dual box falcons, guardians and commandships with near perfect skills across two toons. I find it lame however that I must do so, and dream of better days.
So... I guess ill call you probie and then ask if you're mad about something? Because you seem pretty mad bra.
|

Eternum Praetorian
Malum Crusis
787
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 01:21:00 -
[28] - Quote
Lipbite wrote:As logistics pilot I want to thank those who added 1-5 "likes" already to counter-argument answers to this post - which didn't got a single "like" yet.
Why would people like a post advocating the nerfage of their pvpbear, near risk free I win button? The most likely outcome would be an attempt to troll it into oblivion, as we are seeing now.
|

maxum flaxum
mxmfxm
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 02:20:00 -
[29] - Quote
don't mind him, he's just pissed that he can't kill anything in his high sec war because gw3ndolin3 keeps using a neutral guardian and oneiros |

Cartheron Crust
Matari Exodus
22
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 02:49:00 -
[30] - Quote
Ah yes use one of the worst ships for an RR BS as an example to why Logistics ships need to be nerfed.
Armageddon has one spare high slot for a remote rep mod. Bad. It only has three midslots. Bad. It uses its cap for guns. Bad.
This is not a good ship to base your argument on.
[EDIT] - As it seems your main gripe is not being able to kill things before they can deagress and dock perhaps try fighting somewhere they cannot use that dock button. |

Eternum Praetorian
Malum Crusis
787
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 02:59:00 -
[31] - Quote
maxum flaxum wrote:don't mind him, he's just pissed that he can't kill anything in his high sec war because gw3ndolin3 keeps using a neutral guardian and oneiros
Well, since you mentioned it.... 2x guardians didn't seem to save his navy domi, his expensive pod or the rest of his friends in mining for profit who were afraid to undock and fight us. So, you seem to be grossly misinformed.
Linkage
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Eternum Praetorian
Malum Crusis
787
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 03:01:00 -
[32] - Quote
Cartheron Crust wrote:Ah yes use one of the worst ships for an RR BS as an example to why Logistics ships need to be nerfed.
Armageddon has one spare high slot for a remote rep mod. Bad. It only has three midslots. Bad. It uses its cap for guns. Bad.
This is not a good ship to base your argument on.
[EDIT] - As it seems your main gripe is not being able to kill things before they can deagress and dock perhaps try fighting somewhere they cannot use that dock button.
Allot of people here exhibit gross reading comprehension difficulties. I advise you to go back and read it again, and while you're at it, please tell me how other racial ships are superior to geddons when guardians are involved giving reps at 60km. I would love to hear your sparkling insights.
|

Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4239
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 03:08:00 -
[33] - Quote
Allot of people can't spell "a lot" "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |

Eternum Praetorian
Malum Crusis
787
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 03:11:00 -
[34] - Quote
Andski wrote:Allot of people can't spell "a lot"
I do prefer your over you're because it is easier to type , and yet I do not spell lose as loose. But is that really your best troll for the night? I mean... here I am advocating the nerfing of your PVPbear-stupid-easy-I-win button. Can you come up with nothing more?
I mean what if CCP listens.. And... And.. (shudders to think of it)
You have to actually lose a ship every now and then 
|

Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
648
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 03:15:00 -
[35] - Quote
Eternum Praetorian wrote:It is my belief that anything that prevents lol, your belief is not good enough reason to fix anything. Your belief is like saying Titan's were WTFOMGBBQ poweful, but in actually your belief is covering the fact that you suck just as much the guys getting shot by XL guns.
See, my belief is that it is infact the whiney players that can't adapt that are the problem. Someone points out to shoot the guardian, OP says that is stupid. OMG OP is one dumb dude.
See, the problem in EVE is that we have people on both sides of the fence in EVE and one adapts to some plan/strategy/tactic but the other side deems it not fair requesting CCP fix everything from XL gun tracking, JF are riskless because they can avoid people (which is what its supposed to ******* do), move level 4s to lowsec, remote neutrol reppers, self destruct ect. Why is it that the people in this game cannot ******* adapt, so they instead fly capital ships that don't pop to XL guns, guys cannot get better at trying to catch JF, just leave station where the guys are using the remote reps (you don't have to acutally fight them), increase the needed DPS before a ship explodes (after the first fight, you should relize what you need to increase...DPS of course) or this is really insane...but how about people try to lead those dudes that run level 4s in lowsec by being a supportive model leader.
Incase you all just got blurry eyed over the last sentence, why don't you adapt and get better at EVE. When someone decides to pay their subscription to dedicate theselves to some plan of their own, CCP doesn't need to change the game just because you keep losing. That would be like asking the guys who have the better run times in the upcomming olympics to leave the games, just because they are .01 seconds better then you is no excuse you cannot become self improved and become .02 seconds better then without an outside party (CCP in this case) to make you feel more like a champ. |

Silly Slot
Phoenix Evolved Part Duo
26
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 03:16:00 -
[36] - Quote
SOMEONE please close this troll of a thread,
I mean seriously you want to nerf LOGI? They already dont get on killmails and you want to make them less effective, wow why not just remove the ships entierly and we can just have slug fest to 0 ships after slug fest to 0 ships every time...
Yes RR is a force multiplier... JUST LIKE ECM... Yes a guardian can run for 1m + without its cap chain depending on fit... but heres the thing have you ever been in a 20 man logi chain and get f*cking jammed out and have to get things back up and running beefore your fleet of god knows how many battleships is waisted...
I mean i could see nerfing if we had 3 man BS roams going around with 3 logi, and were unstopable and unkillable, but thats just NOT THE CASE. |

Silly Slot
Phoenix Evolved Part Duo
26
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 03:18:00 -
[37] - Quote
Eternum Praetorian wrote:Cartheron Crust wrote:Ah yes use one of the worst ships for an RR BS as an example to why Logistics ships need to be nerfed.
Armageddon has one spare high slot for a remote rep mod. Bad. It only has three midslots. Bad. It uses its cap for guns. Bad.
This is not a good ship to base your argument on.
[EDIT] - As it seems your main gripe is not being able to kill things before they can deagress and dock perhaps try fighting somewhere they cannot use that dock button. A lot of people here exhibit gross reading comprehension difficulties. I advise you to go back and read it again, and while you're at it, please tell me how other racial ships are superior to geddons when guardians are involved giving reps at 60km. I would love to hear your sparkling insights.
mmmm alpha maelstroms, sniper rokhs, sniper naga's seriously wtf dude, just because guardians make a fight harder to win doesn't meant here a I win button, theres multiple counters to them
A. Alpha B. ECM C. Neuts (a curse for gods sake) |

Eternum Praetorian
Malum Crusis
787
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 03:18:00 -
[38] - Quote
Aqriue wrote:Eternum Praetorian wrote:It is my belief that anything that prevents lol, your belief is not good enough reason to fix anything. Your belief is like saying Titan's were WTFOMGBBQ poweful, but in actually your belief is covering the fact that you suck just as much the guys getting shot by XL guns. See, my belief is that it is infact the whiney players that can't adapt that are the problem. Someone points out to shoot the guardian, OP says that is stupid. OMG OP is one dumb dude. See, the problem in EVE is that we have people on both sides of the fence in EVE and one adapts to some plan/strategy/tactic but the other side deems it not fair requesting CCP fix everything from XL gun tracking, JF are riskless because they can avoid people (which is what its supposed to ******* do), move level 4s to lowsec, remote neutrol reppers, self destruct ect. Why is it that the people in this game cannot ******* adapt, so they instead fly capital ships that don't pop to XL guns, guys cannot get better at trying to catch JF, just leave station where the guys are using the remote reps (you don't have to acutally fight them), increase the needed DPS before a ship explodes (after the first fight, you should relize what you need to increase...DPS of course) or this is really insane...but how about people try to lead those dudes that run level 4s in lowsec by being a supportive model leader. Incase you all just got blurry eyed over the last sentence, why don't you adapt and get better at EVE. When someone decides to pay their subscription to dedicate theselves to some plan of their own, CCP doesn't need to change the game just because you keep losing. That would be like asking the guys who have the better run times in the upcomming olympics to leave the games, just because they are .01 seconds better then you is no excuse you cannot become self improved and become .02 seconds better then without an outside party (CCP in this case) to make you feel more like a champ.
* does not read a post from an alt with no face.
I mean... at least make a face if you're going cower behind an alt toon.
|

Eternum Praetorian
Malum Crusis
787
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 03:19:00 -
[39] - Quote
Silly Slot wrote:I mean i could see nerfing if we had 3 man BS roams going around with 3 logi, and were unstopable and unkillable, but thats just NOT THE CASE.
With three guardians in tow, I can honestly say that I am unkillable unless I am up against 10:1 odds. Not because I am that win, but because of how logi's rep my buffer ship with relation to aggression timers, gates and stations in ever sector of space. If you do not understand this, then you do not understand EVE.
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Eternum Praetorian
Malum Crusis
787
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 03:24:00 -
[40] - Quote
Silly Slot wrote:
A. Alpha B. ECM C. Neuts (a curse for gods sake)
I think I covered each of these topics in my OP, way to read and give viable counter arguments. Do you have any BTW?
EDIT:
This thread is now about how risk adverse the vast majority of EVE's "L33T" player base has become.
|

Cartheron Crust
Matari Exodus
22
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 03:39:00 -
[41] - Quote
Eternum Praetorian wrote:Cartheron Crust wrote:Ah yes use one of the worst ships for an RR BS as an example to why Logistics ships need to be nerfed.
Armageddon has one spare high slot for a remote rep mod. Bad. It only has three midslots. Bad. It uses its cap for guns. Bad.
This is not a good ship to base your argument on.
[EDIT] - As it seems your main gripe is not being able to kill things before they can deagress and dock perhaps try fighting somewhere they cannot use that dock button. A lot of people here exhibit gross reading comprehension difficulties. I advise you to go back and read it again, and while you're at it, please tell me how other racial ships are superior to geddons when guardians are involved giving reps at 60km. I would love to hear your sparkling insights.
Because you should base your argument on a ship that is actually suited to the role you are trying to mimic? Rather than one of the worst ships for the intended role? Now over the Armageddon; the Tempest has an extra utility high and two extra mids; the Typhoon has two extra utility highs and an extra mid and the Dominix has five extra utility highs and two extra mids. None of them use cap for their DPS. Perhaps use these to base an argument on.
Now onto your "problem" of being able rep at 60km. The RR BS does Remote Rep, Tackle and DPS. The Logistics ship does Remote Rep (two of the four can also generate cap). In your own example scenario the Logistics ship flyer is giving up the potential to do DPS and tackle to be more efficient at repping. This is what specialist ships do. This isn't even a problem. Your problem seems to be people using some preparation and organisation and you don't want to put in some effort to counter it. |

Jovan Geldon
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
417
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 04:42:00 -
[42] - Quote
You used two whole posts to essentially say "I don't have enough friends"
Good job |

FluffyDice
StarFckers Inc.
190
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 05:47:00 -
[43] - Quote
Eternum Praetorian wrote: More death is better for the game. Tracking titans need a buff. |

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
675
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 06:07:00 -
[44] - Quote
FluffyDice wrote:Eternum Praetorian wrote: More death is better for the game. Tracking titans need a buff. Titan swarm agrees. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |

ElQuirko
Gravit Negotii Rogue Elements.
677
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 12:41:00 -
[45] - Quote
No, really. Shoot it. I'm sorry, but, frankly, it's the obvious counter. Primary it and the alpha damage will exceed the other logis in the fleet's locktime. CISPA - Readin' your secret corptheft mails since 2012 |

Garnoo
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
36
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 13:09:00 -
[46] - Quote
i think Eternum Praetorian is just dumb... "Observe the logistic ship, a vessel that has no stacking penalty to itGÇÖs LARGE RR mods" wft? what stacking penalty he wants??? mayby he still thinks guns have stacking penalty or something...
are we playing in the same game? People are going to try to ruin your day. Get together with others, ruin their day back - this is EvE |

Vikura
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 13:39:00 -
[47] - Quote
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
If a fleet of 5 ArmageddonGÇÖs engages another fleet of 5, and each side has 2 logistics ship, the out going DPS remains around 5,000 where as the repair rate of each fleet is now 2,900 (verses EM-Therm) So you are repairing 3/5ths of the incoming damage, on ships that have around 120+ EHP.
So you are complaining that 5 vs. 7 situation is not balanced and the team of 5 might not be able to score a kill at all, or single kill only?  i'm shocked that in a MMO team with more people have better chances to win! 
It should be 7 Arma's vs. 5 Arma's with 2 logistics. So 7000 DPS 213 repair vs. 5000 DPS 2900 repair
OR just 4100 DPS (no logistics) vs. 4780 DPS (logistics) when you remove the DPS that RRs and repairs would cancel. |

Selinate
859
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 13:49:00 -
[48] - Quote
Garnoo wrote:i think Eternum Praetorian is just dumb... "Observe the logistic ship, a vessel that has no stacking penalty to itGÇÖs LARGE RR mods" wft? what stacking penalty he wants??? mayby he still thinks guns have stacking penalty or something...
are we playing in the same game?
I don't think. I know.
Shoot the logi, ECM the logi, neut the logi, all viable counters. Game is balanced as far as logis go. |

Daniel L'Siata
Echelon Conflict Resolution. Psychotic Tendencies.
115
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 14:37:00 -
[49] - Quote
This is a bad thread and you should feel bad. I stopped paying any attention at the parts where you advocated fitting Cap Rechargers to PvP ships and demonstrated no solid understanding whatsoever of how to neutralise Logistics.
Please get off EFT and start undocking, you might learn something. I don't want to set the world on fire... Just you.
Psychotic Tendencies is now recruiting skilled PvP pilots of all TZ's. |

Aiwha
101st Space Marine Force Nulli Secunda
345
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 14:45:00 -
[50] - Quote
Which is why modern fleet concepts account for RR.
Alpha fleet hits it before logi can react.
PANIC fleets switch targets hilariously fast to out pace logi pilots.
Just about every alliance has their own versions of these two concepts. Regards,
LCpl. Aiwha-á Senior Recruiter |

Bootleg Jack
Potters Field
76
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 15:45:00 -
[51] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Eternum Praetorian wrote: That is an awful lot of healing space wizards. I'm not a WOW player so I could be wrong here, but shouldn't it be Cleric? Mr Epeen 
Oh come on, you don't "heal" your ship?  I'm an American, English is my second language... |

Just Alter
Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
111
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 16:56:00 -
[52] - Quote
Eternum Praetorian wrote:Silly Slot wrote:I mean i could see nerfing if we had 3 man BS roams going around with 3 logi, and were unstopable and unkillable, but thats just NOT THE CASE. With three guardians in tow, I can honestly say that I am unkillable unless I am up against 10:1 odds. Not because I am that win, but because of how logi's rep my buffer ship with relation to aggression timers, gates and stations in ever sector of space. If you do not understand this, then you do not understand EVE.
But that sentence has no meaning at all.
It would make no sense if you'd be able to get killed (btw you can : alpha) with 3 logis repping you.
What do you want, removal of logis?
Even if they nerfed it you would just change the number (from 3 to 5 logis) and the problem would be the same.
Stop whining, stop posting, stop playing.
|

Markus Reese
Debitum Naturae ROMANIAN-LEGION
172
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 17:16:00 -
[53] - Quote
Going to add to this here, there is another little secret that will result in logistics needing a change. that is a certain lockbreaker module that while messes up ability to lock when active, really eliminates blob tactics. If you start getting targeted, turn on and alot less alpha coming at you. Not seeded, but is on sisi so will have to see how it works. Essentially, they work fine because of the blob where we get enough dps to swamp a logistic or alpha before they can swap targets. If the blob becomes a possible negative, logistics are way to overpowered. |

Darius Brinn
Iberians Iberians.
12
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 17:25:00 -
[54] - Quote
Eternum Praetorian wrote: A game mechanic balanced on who has the stupidest FC. Winning?
Yes. The outcome of fights decided by player skill and experience is what we should aim for. Always.
|

Torneach
Emrys Enterprises
81
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 17:27:00 -
[55] - Quote
Eternum Praetorian wrote:A game mechanic balanced on who has the stupidest FC. Winning?
Actually, it is pretty fantastic, you should find yourself a good FC. |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1864
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 17:29:00 -
[56] - Quote
Markus Reese wrote:Going to add to this here, there is another little secret that will result in logistics needing a change. that is a certain lockbreaker module that while messes up ability to lock when active, really eliminates blob tactics. If you start getting targeted, turn on and alot less alpha coming at you. Not seeded, but is on sisi so will have to see how it works. Essentially, they work fine because of the blob where we get enough dps to swamp a logistic or alpha before they can swap targets. If the blob becomes a possible negative, logistics are way to overpowered.
It will be interesting, as the new module will likely break logistics locks on the primary target as well as hostile locks.
On the other hand, if this module comes into common usage fleets will start calling multiple targets (probably called by squadron or wing commanders individually) instead of one primary for the entire fleet. If this happens the job of the logistics pilot becomes much more difficult unless the number of logistics pilots in a fleet is increased and assigned on a squadron basis. When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |

Eternum Praetorian
Malum Crusis
790
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 19:37:00 -
[57] - Quote
The comments on this thread did surprise me a little. Here is why...
1.) I did not fully realize how willfully risk adverse people had become in EVE... until now.
2.) Why should a null sec Alpha fleet be the dominate (and almost only) viable form of PVP in this game? You people seem to think that your style of PVP is the only style of PVP.
All your countermeasures to guardians work after a fashion, sure. But none of you really addressed the point of this post. In fact it was not even touched upon. It was DPS vs Tank Vs players at the keyboard, and how that factors into PVP in this MMORPG. I advocated one thing and one thing only, DPS should increase far more per ship (and per player) then tank does. I believe this because I believe that EVE is a better EVE when people know they are going to die when they engage.
Since no post has addressed this, all of your posts are just the upchucked troll dung spewed forth by blobbers and risk adverse fail bears. The post stands, and their is a need in EVE Online right now for GREATER DPS vs TANK. Whether that is nerfing logistics ships or giving RR a general stacking penalty.... I don't really care. But there is a need. The state of small gang PVP in EVE Online is not healthy, and many of us are not interested in playing null sec blobs online.
If CCP does not realize that, they will lose revenue. If the lot of you don't care about that... then so be it. But that is the reality of EVE Online.
If CCP gave people like me a new and improved venue to experience small gang PVP, with more death, less RR, less blobbing and no capital ships they would see a huge influx of interest. So much so that I image your null sec empires would lose players. I see how that would not be a good thing for you, but this is a game not real life. Lots of people here don't want to play your eve online.
|

Just Alter
Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
111
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 22:27:00 -
[58] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Markus Reese wrote:Going to add to this here, there is another little secret that will result in logistics needing a change. that is a certain lockbreaker module that while messes up ability to lock when active, really eliminates blob tactics. If you start getting targeted, turn on and alot less alpha coming at you. Not seeded, but is on sisi so will have to see how it works. Essentially, they work fine because of the blob where we get enough dps to swamp a logistic or alpha before they can swap targets. If the blob becomes a possible negative, logistics are way to overpowered. It will be interesting, as the new module will likely break logistics locks on the primary target as well as hostile locks. On the other hand, if this module comes into common usage fleets will start calling multiple targets (probably called by squadron or wing commanders individually) instead of one primary for the entire fleet. If this happens the job of the logistics pilot becomes much more difficult unless the number of logistics pilots in a fleet is increased and assigned on a squadron basis.
The alpha will be much less intimidating.
I also think the module wont work with friendlies, otherwise some strange mechanics would take place. |

Just Alter
Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
111
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 22:31:00 -
[59] - Quote
Eternum Praetorian wrote: 1.) I did not fully realize how willfully risk adverse people had become in EVE... until now. .
http://youtu.be/OHVjs4aobqs
Stop it goddamit.
|

De Douche
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 22:42:00 -
[60] - Quote
1/10 troll
OP is a pro (big fan) logi pilot 
And yes i've flown with him many times... but he doesn't know how I am so .I.. :p |

Greygal
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
111
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 22:53:00 -
[61] - Quote
Eternum Praetorian wrote: Once ECM jammer with perfect skills on a guardian with base skills will only score a jam 36% of the time for 15 seconds.
Jams last 20 seconds.
Why would someone fly a Guardian with only "base skills"?
I believe your 36% chance-to-jam is too low, especially if you are assuming "perfect skills." What ship is the ECM jammer flying? What type of jammer is it using (racial? multispec? t2?) Is the jamming ship fit with rigs? Is the pilot overheating his jammers? Are there fleet boosters available? Many things can affect the chance to jam. Too lazy to do the math myself right now, but some simple and quick math off the top of my head, flying a reasonably well fit ecm-bonused ship, I'm thinking I'm going to successfully jam a Guardian closer to 65% of the time. What you do for yourself dies with you, what you do for others is immortal. |

WolfeReign
The Dead Rabbit Society
11
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 23:09:00 -
[62] - Quote
so you want to nerf something that allows smaller fleets take on fleets that are bigger then them...... |

Zoidberg Gahiji
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
5
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 23:09:00 -
[63] - Quote
Andski wrote:"1400mm Howitzer Artillery II"
I am inclined to say that this is actually an argument in favor of the OP. |

Eternum Praetorian
Malum Crusis
790
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 23:16:00 -
[64] - Quote
De Douche wrote:1/10 troll OP is a pro (big fan) logi pilot  And yes i've flown with him many times... but he doesn't know how I am so .I.. :p
Not empty quoting 
Yes, I can neut RR with the best of them. It doesn't mean that I like it, it is just the state of the game.
|

Eternum Praetorian
Malum Crusis
790
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 23:19:00 -
[65] - Quote
WolfeReign wrote:so you want to nerf something that allows smaller fleets take on fleets that are bigger then them......
Except, the larger fleet has more of them so the effect that you are suggestion won't actually happen now will it?
|

Just Alter
Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
112
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 23:21:00 -
[66] - Quote
Eternum Praetorian wrote:De Douche wrote:1/10 troll OP is a pro (big fan) logi pilot  And yes i've flown with him many times... but he doesn't know how I am so .I.. :p Not empty quoting  Yes, I can neut RR with the best of them. It doesn't mean that I like it, it is just the state of the game.
Neut rr is a different matter entirely.
You're talking about simple logis here.
You're raving about something that would change the gameplay of people in null sec or wormholes too (you know, the real pvp...)
There are 2 possibilities: you're a troll or you're just mad you werent able to kill someone.
(also is funny you talk about "risk aversion" while going around with neut logiS, why dont you go around solo champ?) |

Eternum Praetorian
Malum Crusis
790
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 23:24:00 -
[67] - Quote
Just Alter wrote:Eternum Praetorian wrote:De Douche wrote:1/10 troll OP is a pro (big fan) logi pilot  And yes i've flown with him many times... but he doesn't know how I am so .I.. :p Not empty quoting  Yes, I can neut RR with the best of them. It doesn't mean that I like it, it is just the state of the game. Neut rr is a different matter entirely. You're talking about simple logis here. You're raving about something that would change the gameplay of people in null sec or wormholes too (you know, the real pvp...) There are 2 possibilities: you're a troll or you're just mad you werent able to kill someone. (also is funny you talk about "risk aversion" while going around with neut logiS, why dont you go around solo champ?)
It's all the same because... drum roll.... "Neutral logistics are so easy to counter" Or do you only say that when it's suits your needs?
& I am talking about all logi's everywhere, neutral or otherwise.
|

Eternum Praetorian
Malum Crusis
790
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 23:27:00 -
[68] - Quote
Greygal wrote:Eternum Praetorian wrote: Once ECM jammer with perfect skills on a guardian with base skills will only score a jam 36% of the time for 15 seconds.
Jams last 20 seconds. Why would someone fly a Guardian with only "base skills"? I believe your 36% chance-to-jam is too low, especially if you are assuming "perfect skills." What ship is the ECM jammer flying? What type of jammer is it using (racial? multispec? t2?) Is the jamming ship fit with rigs? Is the pilot overheating his jammers? Are there fleet boosters available? Many things can affect the chance to jam. Too lazy to do the math myself right now, but some simple and quick math off the top of my head, flying a reasonably well fit ecm-bonused ship, I'm thinking I'm going to successfully jam a Guardian closer to 65% of the time.
Aren't you agony guys supposed to be like... really smart?
A guardian with base skills is referring to it's base sensor strength plus 1 ECCM... obviously. And unless you plan on disputing EFT's math regarding ECM, I don't think you and I have much else to discuss.
|

Just Alter
Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
112
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 23:27:00 -
[69] - Quote
Welp, i'm out.
Have fun whining i guess. |

Eternum Praetorian
Malum Crusis
790
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 23:28:00 -
[70] - Quote
Just Alter wrote:Welp, i'm out.
Have fun whining i guess.
But your in TEST? Isn't that against alliance policy or something?
|

Greygal
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
111
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 23:31:00 -
[71] - Quote
Eternum Praetorian wrote:Greygal wrote:Eternum Praetorian wrote: Once ECM jammer with perfect skills on a guardian with base skills will only score a jam 36% of the time for 15 seconds.
Jams last 20 seconds. Why would someone fly a Guardian with only "base skills"? I believe your 36% chance-to-jam is too low, especially if you are assuming "perfect skills." What ship is the ECM jammer flying? What type of jammer is it using (racial? multispec? t2?) Is the jamming ship fit with rigs? Is the pilot overheating his jammers? Are there fleet boosters available? Many things can affect the chance to jam. Too lazy to do the math myself right now, but some simple and quick math off the top of my head, flying a reasonably well fit ecm-bonused ship, I'm thinking I'm going to successfully jam a Guardian closer to 65% of the time. Aren't you agony guys supposed to be like... really smart? A guardian with base skills is referring to it's base sensor strength plus 1 ECCM... obviously. And unless you plan on disputing EFT's math regarding ECM, I don't think you and I have much else to discuss. 65% jams with one racial jammer? You're totally on crack dude.
Then I missunderstood what you meant by "base skills". I also didn't take into accounting the fitting of an ECCM. I also stated that I was too lazy to do the math myself right now :) What you do for yourself dies with you, what you do for others is immortal. |

Just Alter
Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
113
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 23:40:00 -
[72] - Quote
Eternum Praetorian wrote:Just Alter wrote:Welp, i'm out.
Have fun whining i guess. But your in TEST? Isn't that against alliance policy or something?
You're right:
Welp i'm out.
You're a **** **** eating ******. |

Eternum Praetorian
Malum Crusis
791
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 23:41:00 -
[73] - Quote
Just Alter wrote:Eternum Praetorian wrote:Just Alter wrote:Welp, i'm out.
Have fun whining i guess. But your in TEST? Isn't that against alliance policy or something? You're right: Welp i'm out. You're a **** **** eating ******.
That's better.
|

Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance
110
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 23:56:00 -
[74] - Quote
by all means.. lets make all fights insta-ganks. we should be able to push a button and everyone pvp should die at once and quickly.. (sic)
my hulk has the mining power of 24 mining frigates.. needs a nerf right? [IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/OldST.jpg[/IMG] |

Eternum Praetorian
Malum Crusis
791
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 23:57:00 -
[75] - Quote
Barbara Nichole wrote:by all means.. lets make all fights insta-ganks. we should be able to push a button and everyone pvp should die at once and quickly.. (sic)
We are in agreement, I too think Alpha fleets are far to prevalent.
|

Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
193
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 00:02:00 -
[76] - Quote
IMO this is all just a bad idea. For one, the idea of trying to balance just one ship, like logi is just prone to failure. There are tons of different ships with different abilities in EVE. It is what makes it so great. Yes Logi is a major force multiplier in a fleet. But there are also plenty of counters to logistics.
With the wide array of possible fleet compositions it is hard to just take one ship in isolation and try to "balance" it. All you will get is a different fleet composition down the line with it's own issues. |

nat longshot
New Eden Inc.
5
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 01:47:00 -
[77] - Quote
first off logi's have many weak spot like it was said before shot them and if the 2nd logi dont start rr that one it dead and in most cases it will die no matter what or warp off.
Get a rook out there and jam the logi.
there are countless counter to logi's but in the end if a numbers game get more FRIENDS!! |

NickyYo
StarHug
73
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 01:51:00 -
[78] - Quote
This thread makes total Sense!!
I remember a year ago before i de-activated my account.. We were war decked by a corp of say 6 players, we had them out numbered the gates camped etc! We were shocked that they undocked, so we started shooting..
THEN BOOM! out of no where!!
4 neutral logistic alts appeared from no where!! and started repping them. So this is how it goes in empire atm.
Greifer corps have neutral logistic alts so they can move them around freely and put them into place freely before repping [ THIS SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED!
I suggest CCP make it so Logistic ships cannot repair neutrals!! Its EXPLOITING!!
Yes i'm mad! (SERVICE) Need a project coding? (PHP & Javascript) https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=101893&find=unread |

qDoctor Strangelove
Beware of the Red Fox
18
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 02:31:00 -
[79] - Quote
Dear OP:
Please see this list of counters to LOGI's:
More logis on your side. Neut Drones (sucks to be a scimmy) Curses / Pilgrims (Sucks to be any logistics) Remote Sensor Dampeners (Sucks to change targets, or they become out of lock range) Heavy Neuts on your battleships (No cap no rep... kill that chain) High Alpha
CCP: Fix the neut rep.. ohh wait, there it is in the upcoming patch notes.
|

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
692
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 03:36:00 -
[80] - Quote
nat longshot wrote:first off logi's have many weak spot like it was said before shot them and if the 2nd logi dont start rr that one it dead and in most cases it will die no matter what or warp off.
Get a rook out there and jam the logi.
there are countless counter to logi's but in the end if a numbers game get more FRIENDS!! Blobber <3
Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
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