Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 [8] 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 .. 18 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Jaina Proudmoar
Caldari Light Brigade
|
Posted - 2009.05.24 15:10:00 -
[211]
Edited by: Jaina Proudmoar on 24/05/2009 15:09:50 haha, the "T" in "Akita T" stands for troll, right?
(Congrats on getting to 7 pages so fast before thread lock. \o/ )
EDIT: 8 PAGES!
|
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2009.05.24 15:59:00 -
[212]
There's no reason for a thread lock anywhere in it
EVE issues|Mining revamp|Build stuff|Make ISK |
Jesum
Amarr Black Rainbow Knights
|
Posted - 2009.05.24 16:57:00 -
[213]
More entry points into low-sec and null-sec and moving lvl3, 4 and 5 agents to 0.4-0.0 would be great.
____________ -Jesum♥ |
Spurty
Caldari Ore Mongers BricK sQuAD.
|
Posted - 2009.05.24 17:00:00 -
[214]
my #2 son is teething and currently running a temp, so all I can do is read forums. I've read every post.
Some of you are arguing mostly with people saying the same thing, just worded differently.
Only conclusion I'm coming to from it is that people who can grind 23/7 are richer than I will ever be. I really do not care about the 'size of their wallet'.
Look how many titans there are in game now. You know how much those cost?
lol
I would like my 1 hour pvp'ing losses replaced by just 2 hours carebearing, but there is no way to do this without already having billions invested in gear and logistics to
If the old maxim is "Don't fly what you can't afford to "REPLACE"' I'll never pvp again in anything but a t1 and t1 fit cruiser lol.
Point here is "No thanks" to nerfing any sources of income, but boost those that do not deliver!
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
Thus I AM BETTER THAN YOU.
|
MukkBarovian
|
Posted - 2009.05.24 18:19:00 -
[215]
I agree that some content has come out unfinished. Do we have more than one epic mission arc yet? Black ops need more balancing. The orca expansion was nice but it did not feel like what any other game would call an expansion. One ship added. Ect.
I would be really happy if CCP stopped adding new content for a little bit and instead spent some time balancing and rounding out what they have done recently.
Some of this content being overshadowed by lvl 4 missions. Damn I don't want to be one of the nerf lvl4 crowd but I have a hard time justifyig them to myself. The thing is considering risk in empire apporachers zero any ammount of reward divided by that approaches infinity. On the other hand you should be able to make some ammount of money in highsec so I think pure risk/reward doesn't capture the whole picture anyway.
On that note though. Why not buff the 'bounty' material wormhole rats drop so that the npcs will pay the equivilant of someone ratting elsewhere. That would drop t3 prices because someone who valued their time at x mil/hour and was making a good chunk of it just on the npc buy orders instead of from the wormhole material would be more willing to ask less for t3 ship bits.
On the whole I'm not sure what to say about t3 ships. I was hoping that the modules would scale better in terms of power and cost. That I could buy a cheap t3 ship for 50 mil that preformed a little better than a t1 cruiser. Upgrade a part for 40 mil, and preform a little crappier than a t2 ship in some particular area. Drop 100 mil into one ship component and preform a little better than a t2 cruiser in that area. Maybe have some really pimp systems with crazy cost and good preformance compared to t2.
Right now thats not remotely possible because research yields random mods, and all modules have the same build requirements. Not too mention that ccp had a different vision. 300 mil for a versatile swiss army knife hull that underpreforms compared to specialized t2 ships.
|
Lindsay Logan
|
Posted - 2009.05.24 18:56:00 -
[216]
W-space rules. Sure, it is hard work, and not as proftable as hours of boring levle 4 grinding, but its way more interesting. And after a certian time limit in EVE, you want something different, you want to have a cahllenge.
And if you don't fight in there, you can mine the very valuale ore it has.
It is also perfect for PvP, and random raids on random low/0.0/w-space systems is great fun.
What can be done with it to enhance it? Make the spawns in there not go down just because you put a tower in there. This is also related to T3 prices (it is stil lto early for thoose prices to drop, but they will eventually, but not to 300M imo).
As for FW, I never tried it. I wanted to, but I would have to leave my corp for it, and that is what held me back. I rahter stay with my corpies that I have been with since i first joined EVE ^^.
As for the industry patch: I dunno, I have found good use of the Orca, but the ohter stuff did not interest me,
|
El Liptonez
|
Posted - 2009.05.24 19:33:00 -
[217]
Edited by: El Liptonez on 24/05/2009 19:36:35 Edited by: El Liptonez on 24/05/2009 19:34:28 Edited by: El Liptonez on 24/05/2009 19:34:11 T3 didn't fail. Everyone who is bored of mission running and cares for wormholes makes half a billion ISK a day. Sooner or later the prices will go down (well maybe they won't actually, but there are always people who buy 2b-cruisers). T3 ships are just expensive, that's all. There has been said enough about FW. That's PVP and not that. And Alchemy? Yeah I forgot about it, but I'm very sure a whole expansion was not about that. And congrats that you found out about character sizes and styles, but they don't make your posts easier to read. I actually didn't read them.
Edit: Removing that stupid nerf on anchoring POSes in wormholes will fix the T3 price issue. 99% of the people who got a POS in a WH don't seem to know that you can actually kill/harvest/salvage/hack/analyze the neighboring wormholes.
|
Silence Duegood
|
Posted - 2009.05.24 20:14:00 -
[218]
Edited by: Silence Duegood on 24/05/2009 20:14:38
Originally by: Armoured C Edited by: Armoured C on 23/05/2009 10:36:10 yeah eve is failing, so why dont you go play another game... oh that right YEAH because like myself you love this game to damm much .
if you dont like it akita you can always quit.
i agree with the post above CCP are brining in the numbers as it is what eve nature that is the important bit.
just a side note
FW was not ment to be a isk machine it is ment to be a pvp anywhere button and over 10k people in it it might not be ooh so popular that you level 4 but there are still people in involved.
Tú: i am seeing more T3 ships everyday hell my alliance has caught a few in 0.0 remember that the citizen make the prices for the economy. Not liking the price for you stuff your collecting in the wormholes? well make your price? Just remember you are competing against everyone else
if CCP were doing something wrong sub number would of gone down instead of going up.
and while you main post just intreige on some points why cant you actually moan about stuff that has been happening much longer that a couple of expansions. please troll on something more constructive like sov mechanics
also movey movey to features page ?
I truly enjoy reading idiotic responses like this from inflated egos that blow hot air to cover the fact that they are essentially nothing short of a moron.
Explain why server population going up reflects the inner-workings of a game functioning or flourishing? You can't. Why not? Because it isn't true.
For any idiot you finds a correlation between the two, allow me to enlighten you. Explain how a player who has no knowledge of the game is motivated to join because the game is properly balanced? See the problem.
People don't subscribe to a game while simultaneously having knowledge of it. Get it, genius? They are called 'new players' for a reason.
Subscriptions are nothing more than a reflection of advertising and word of mouth. Subscriptions rates don't provide evidence that a game is fun, successful, or balanced. It only illustrates good advertising, whether it be intentional advertising or a mention in an article.
Get it now, moron?
|
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2009.05.25 01:30:00 -
[219]
Well, in the silly guy's defence, playing devil's advocate here... the sub numbers also eventually depend on the game's quality... I mean, you can have the most kickass advertising campaign ever (I don't know, people actually getting a free iPod is they sign up for a free one-month full sub ) and you still wouldn't have many subscribers afterwards
EVE issues|Mining revamp|Build stuff|Make ISK |
Jesum
Amarr Black Rainbow Knights
|
Posted - 2009.05.25 14:04:00 -
[220]
Also, the bounty hunter system isn't very user friendly. ____________ -Jesum♥ |
|
ShadowDraqon
The Quantum Company
|
Posted - 2009.05.25 15:05:00 -
[221]
@ OP:
1. I think your caps lock button is broken
2. Quantum rise = orca, Orca = awesome, time well spent there.
However, would the devs look at my Blatantly obvious features list. Waste some time on those things, dammit. I'm still right-clicking the portrait when someone comes online >.< |
Kai V'laz
Advance Naval Guard
|
Posted - 2009.05.25 16:57:00 -
[222]
The baseline is not lvl 4 mission-running in high sec. The baseline is trading, which we all know can net you exponentially more than high-sec missioning unless you are doing something wrong and without the risk of ship loss. Nerf the missioning system and the old boys like us will continue to make billions trading, unfazed. Those affected will be The carebears (read: CCP's bread and butter as well as 65-90% of all new players) and they will scream bloody murder and preclude such a nerf. Ever wonder why the Drake still wtfpwns PvE, despite years of sobbing by pirates and griefers?
Quote: Why does CCP allow a player with only a month in game to make it back to the gate before my 3 man gang can break its passive [Drake] tank?
If you know the answer to that, then you know why CCP won't bite the hand that feeds them with a meaningful lvl4 nerf, though I grant you this: It would be the Band-aid solution to the problem of FW sucking and Strategic Cruisers sucking. Make missioning suck more! |
Ana Vyr
|
Posted - 2009.05.25 17:04:00 -
[223]
One thing about level 4 missions that doesn't get a lot of focus is the fact they are soloable.
Aside from highsec mining, and trading, missioning is one of the only profittable activities that doesn't require you to have a corp to do in EvE. Now, look at the playerbase. We've got a lot of adults playing this game...and these are folks with kids, spouses, careers, and so on that don't have more than say a couple hours a day at most to play.
Missioning caters to that lifestyle rather well.
Corporations and all that goes with them, less so. My own corp has recently moved into 0.0, and all I see in alliance chat and mail is "get your ass into a PvP fit ship and get out here and help!". Where are all these untold riches I've read so much about in 0.0? They are there to be mined and ratted certainly, but it looks like we'll be spending far more time defending turf than making any ISK. What is not fun in a game is having other people, who have more time than you do, tell you how you must spend your time when you are playing.
Missioning sidesteps all those problems quite nicely....you get to blow stuff up AND get paid handsomely for it, and you don't have to play follow the leader.
The trouble with any form of low security space is that you have to spend a fair bit of effort watching your surroundings. This can be a very fun and intensse experience, but it gets tiring after a while...and when you slack off, you'll lose a ship. I would imagine that many players just don't want that level of intensity with their limited game time.
Missioning in high sec alleviates that trouble too.
So, while I agree that level 4 missioning is a reletively risk free source of ISK...perhaps the best overall source of ISK, the ISK itself is not the only reason folks tend to play that sort of PvE gameplay style.
One solution that would help the PvP enthusiasts out a bit would be to make wormhole space a little bit more solo friendly to try and siphon some of these folks from high sec. You know, mix in some perimeter sites into all wormhole difficulty levels to try and get the folks who just don't want to have to group up for everything out there.
One thing that I feel is certain is that CCP will have to be very careful about how they nerf missioning, lest they alienate the casual player types. The more of these folks they attract to their game, the bigger impact changing level 4's will have. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
|
Posted - 2009.05.25 17:06:00 -
[224]
Originally by: MukkBarovian I agree that some content has come out unfinished. Do we have more than one epic mission arc yet? Black ops need more balancing. The orca expansion was nice but it did not feel like what any other game would call an expansion. One ship added. Ect.
I would be really happy if CCP stopped adding new content for a little bit and instead spent some time balancing and rounding out what they have done recently.
You mean like they did with Quantum Rise?
And then they caught a ****storm of complaining that "this isn't a REAL expansion!!!!OMGQQQQ!!!!".... |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
|
Posted - 2009.05.25 17:08:00 -
[225]
Originally by: Jesum Also, the bounty hunter system isn't very user friendly.
As in, it's a hilariously useless joke?
|
Apotamkin
|
Posted - 2009.05.25 23:23:00 -
[226]
I agree |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2009.05.26 20:01:00 -
[227]
Edited by: Akita T on 26/05/2009 20:07:06
Originally by: Kai V'laz The baseline is not lvl 4 mission-running in high sec. The baseline is trading, which we all know can net you exponentially more than high-sec missioning unless you are doing something wrong and without the risk of ship loss.
*sigh* this again ? No, wrong - trading is a PVP activity, and as such self-balances against all others that choose to do trading, and risks are pretty high as soon as enough players enter a market.
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: MukkBarovian I would be really happy if CCP stopped adding new content for a little bit and instead spent some time balancing and rounding out what they have done recently.
You mean like they did with Quantum Rise? And then they caught a ****storm of complaining that "this isn't a REAL expansion!!!!OMGQQQQ!!!!"....
Too bad they didn't manage to "fix" all that much, and spent a lot of time on features that didn't make it into the epansion at all eventually (storefronts being the one most people were looking forward to, especially since it was up on SiSi in a half-working state). Would they have said from the start "we're not doing ANYTHING AT ALL except fixing bugs and improving server-side and/or client-side performance", well, that would have been just peachy. Too bad they pre-announced it as a big industrialist expansion.
EVE issues|Mining revamp|Build stuff|Make ISK |
Veng3ance
Multiversal Enterprise Inc. Cry Havoc.
|
Posted - 2009.05.26 20:42:00 -
[228]
I love Akita T
CCP.... learn how to give rewards properly FFS! Its only been said FOR ****EN YEARS.
|
Aglarond
|
Posted - 2009.05.26 20:50:00 -
[229]
I see this so much it's funny. Moving L3 and L4 missions to lowsec is just f*****g stupid. You cant do missions (at least 4's) in a PVP fit ship. It just cant be done.
I would dare to say that most people are mission runners, not because it's the most profitable thing to do, but because most people are combat pilots and thats almost the only way to make money as a combat pilot. I would also say that it takes almost no thinking on behalf of the missioner to do them which means anyone can do them.. On top of this, missioning is really a very low income by comparison to just about anything else you can do in hisec.
It's mostly the miners that are whining that the mineral costs are dropping and blaming mission reprocessing. I would believe that if I hadnt watched a corpie take his orca and 3 hulks strip 5 belts in under 2 hours. He can decimate entire solar systems by himself every day. What do you think that does to the mineral prices?
Trading and Production are both PVP. If you dont believe it, your a fool. It's easy to lose your arse in trading /production by making 1 mistake or getting one or 2 of your freighters suicide ran and your done.
Abandon hope for the Caldari Race.
It's always a bitter moment when something gets nerfed. Not because CCP decided something genuinely needed an adjustment, but because somewhere some whiner is g |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2009.05.26 20:57:00 -
[230]
Originally by: Aglarond It's mostly the miners that are whining that the mineral costs are dropping and blaming mission reprocessing. I would believe that if I hadnt watched a corpie take his orca and 3 hulks strip 5 belts in under 2 hours. He can decimate entire solar systems by himself every day. What do you think that does to the mineral prices?
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=989786
EVE issues|Mining revamp|Build stuff|Make ISK |
|
5pinDizzy
|
Posted - 2009.05.26 21:08:00 -
[231]
Am I the only person that thought Quantum Rise was probably the best expansion we've ever had?
I'd never enjoyed eve so much as I did after that smooth transition with changes that really mattered to me.
Apocrypha may have brought wormholes but it also brought the horrible new effects and the installer that crashes all the time, the amount of stuff that expansion broke is staggering, we've still got around 20-30 pretty bad bugs and graphical/sound glitches due to that expansion and that's only the ones I see myself ingame everyday without looking at some compiled list.
|
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2009.05.26 21:12:00 -
[232]
Edited by: Akita T on 26/05/2009 21:16:01
Originally by: 5pinDizzy Am I the only person that thought Quantum Rise was probably the best expansion we've ever had?
It doesn't matter how good or bad it was. It had a lot of features being worked on that didn't make it into the expansion, and still aren't in the game now. That's wasted dev time. Sure, the focus is on the ONE big issue that is "profitablity" (which includes risks, rewards, entertainment value and several other factors), but that's not the only thing talked about... this thread is about wasted dev time, regardless of reason. Stuff being worked on that was canceled, stuff that made it on that people don't like, stuff that made it and almost nobody uses... all of those things are "wastes of time"... wouldn't you agree ?
Wouldn't it make a lot more sense for CCP to focus on things most people do all the time, to improve and balance those things to "nearly perfect" status... you know, instead of wasting so much dev time on stuff that never sees life or only a tiny minority ends up using at all due to... whatever reasons ? Or, at least put some efforts into fixing the reasons that make some game features so rarely used. That's what this is all about.
EVE issues|Mining revamp|Build stuff|Make ISK |
Cailais
Amarr Diablo Advocatus
|
Posted - 2009.05.26 21:37:00 -
[233]
There's very little point in either boosting non-high sec isk income, or by nerfing high sec isk income.
The reason being is that, for the most part, players dont run high sec missions because theyre profitable but because theyre a consistent and predicable means of gaining ISK.
For example if I wanted ISK I could pirate in .0, I might gank a freighter and make kerbillions from the loot it might drop. Thing is, the chances of me stumbling upon a lone unescorted freighter weighed with heavy shineh stuff is well, quite limited. In theory it will happen and Im sure there are tales of players who have made it big of such an event - its just not that frequent, or very predictable.
High Sec missions are just that - you can plan your short, medium and long term ambitions of them almost to the minute in terms of what you can expect to receive for play time invested. Its generally pretty dull, a grind if you will - but for some that's a price worth paying.
C.
Originally by: Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
|
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2009.05.26 22:02:00 -
[234]
Originally by: Cailais There's very little point in either boosting non-high sec isk income, or by nerfing high sec isk income. The reason being is that, for the most part, players dont run high sec missions because theyre profitable but because theyre a consistent and predicable means of gaining ISK.
And that's precisely the reason WHY you have to alter them. But more on it later.
Quote: For example if I wanted ISK I could pirate in .0, I might gank a freighter and make kerbillions from the loot it might drop. Thing is, the chances of me stumbling upon a lone unescorted freighter weighed with heavy shineh stuff is well, quite limited. In theory it will happen and Im sure there are tales of players who have made it big of such an event - its just not that frequent, or very predictable.
Yes, and that chance of you stumbling upon something like that CAN be quantified statistically as an average income level. How ? By having the total number of such targets and the time they take to go across "unsafe" regions divided by number of players and the time they spend "hunting" for such an elusive target (and doing other stuff meanwhile, but you get the idea). The more people hunt, and the less targets there are, the lower your average income from that activity is. On top of it all, you have to factor in the risk level (of having somebody else intercept you and kill you while you try to "make your money"), and the "fun" you're having while doing any of it (which is dependant to some degree on other things)... so we're right back at the "profitability" issue.
Quote: High Sec missions are just that - you can plan your short, medium and long term ambitions of them almost to the minute in terms of what you can expect to receive for play time invested. Its generally pretty dull, a grind if you will - but for some that's a price worth paying.
You almost got it, but then you lost it and drew the wrong conclusion.
It's all about the average "profitability" - defined as including average expected long-term rewards, adjusted by risk level (not ACTUAL risk at any one time, but the POTENTIAL/average risk level), entertainment level acheivable (the so-called "fun") and countless other circumstantial or personal preference factors (which can be statistically described too), including but not limited to things like geographic location or nationality, timeframe of availability and social interaction levels required (something that can be done solo at any time has a distinct advantage over something that needs to be done at a specific time in a larger team, that much should be fairly obvious).
From that standpoint, highsec L4 missions are by far the overall leader in "profitability". Reasons ? Decent average income, low potential risk, low to moderate entertainment level and no other negative factors (since it can be done solo at any time).
EVE issues|Mining revamp|Build stuff|Make ISK |
THE L0CK
|
Posted - 2009.05.26 22:10:00 -
[235]
This whine is still going huh. May have to sit down in front of the fireplace one of these nights with a glass of bourbon and have a good 8 pages of chuckling.
|
Shdaimes
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2009.05.26 22:14:00 -
[236]
I would like to thanks CCP for the great game they gave us, for the fantastic work they did until now, the great content they added (Battleship, Capital ship, tech II, tech III, exploration and Wormhole, and all the little stuff we don't always care about).
Nothing is perfect, but they are constantly working on increasing quality (Need for Speed IS a great success... technicaly, most of the whinners can't imagine how difficult this is). They're doing a fantastic work, no other game can compare with EVE, and I'm happy with this.
Stop whinning and such ******ed "CPP sucks lol", or other children's proposal that would break the entire game mecanisms or most players prefered gameplay. How old are you, in your head ?
Thanks CCP. Thanks a lot.
-- Shdaimes |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2009.05.26 22:22:00 -
[237]
Originally by: Shdaimes [...]Nothing is perfect, but they are constantly working on increasing quality[...] They're doing a fantastic work, no other game can compare with EVE, and I'm happy with this.
*sigh* the fact we're still playing is proof enough that we still consider EVE worth playing, with no better alternative out there. But just because something is "the best available" doesn't mean it is as good as IT COULD BE.
Quote: Stop whinning and such [...] other children's proposal that would break the entire game mecanisms or most players prefered gameplay.
Was that directed at me or some other particular poster ? Because I didn't propose ANYTHING that would "break" any existing game mechanisms, NOR anything that would "totally wreck" anybody's prefered gameplay style.
EVE issues|Mining revamp|Build stuff|Make ISK |
THE L0CK
|
Posted - 2009.05.26 22:42:00 -
[238]
Originally by: Akita T doesn't mean it is as good as IT COULD BE.
...for you. Keep in mind most of what you stated in post 1 and 2 was that of personal opinion. People tend to confuse fact with opinion.
You didn't like FW, but others still do.
You didn't like the industry patch, many loved it.
Your not big on WH, many disagree and have even gone as far as to move into them.
When a new product is released it does not mean the majority of the population needs to jump on that bandwagon, and that is one of the reason's why this is a sandbox game.
You call it a waste of time, many others call it new content to avoid boredom. If the developers heeded this cry and stopped 'wasting time' on new content then this game would become very static, very quickly.
Personally I would get bored very quickly if I had to deal with the same content day in and day out.
We now return you to this opinion is fact thread.
|
Earthan
Gallente GREY COUNCIL THE R0NIN
|
Posted - 2009.05.26 22:44:00 -
[239]
Edited by: Earthan on 26/05/2009 22:46:53 Edited by: Earthan on 26/05/2009 22:46:00 To the OP : agreed 100% , i made a few posts like that in past , but less well argumented.
To those that mock " ha ha you are talking about virtual money, and a game is about fun" imho you are missing the point wich is that for many of us pvp is the ultimate funa nd for pvp you need isk.And even for for pve players a huge part of fun is building up your power , pimping ships and you need isk.
Putting it another way: i remember when back in beginign of Eve i finally moved to 0.0 outer ring and it was great.Sure the risk with pvpers was big but the reward was colosal , megacyte was going for 8-10 k , zydrine for 4k .It was really a thrill , you really felt that you defend the territory and risk the wild west life becuase its worth it.And there was no missiones in empire then so the jump from empire income to 0.0 was just insane
Nowadays besides the moon mining 0.0 isnt hot.With drone regions and all others stuff min prices are just to low to be profitable , npc shooting / exploration isnt that great either , level 4 missions are much more profitable , coutning the time to defend 0.0 or hide , and overall caution activites.Havent tried wormholes yet so catn comment on this.
Its just 0.0 as end game isk profit got borken sowmhere in the way.
-
Killing Eve bullies all over the galaxy hunting stories |
mechtech
Entropy Industries
|
Posted - 2009.05.26 22:50:00 -
[240]
I say lower L4 payout by 30%. This would drastically improve the viability of other activities in eve, and players would be much more evenly spread over the features that eve offers. I think that in the long run eve would be a better game from such an easy fix.
CCP should do it in a nice way though, a sudden drop will **** off a ton of players. Give a few months notice through the ingame storyline (the bad economy hits eve too! Corporations lower payouts!) Also, they should give special LP offers right before the cut, sort of like "severance pay" to reward the hardcore mission runners before the cut.
Isn't this something the CCP economist should be working on? Surely he realizes that L4 is too profitable per hour compared to the output of other tasks in eve.
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 [8] 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 .. 18 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |