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dannyBOy16437
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Posted - 2009.05.26 12:13:00 -
[1]
What?
I am going to set up an investment of 500 mil isk for my new T2 Ship manufacturing projects.
I will be producing Combat Recon Ships, namely Curse, Pilgrim, Huginn and Rapiers.
I require an investment of 500 mil to be able to start my project.
When?
The investment will last 6 months, with a simple intrest of 8% per month. (Simple Intrest = Paid to the owner per month)
After 6 months The initial investment will be returned to the investors with the final 8% for that month. The isk will be paid out on the 1st of every month, starting on the 1st of June.
Who?
I have set up a 1-man corp, So I can seperate Investor's isk and my own personal isk. My main proffesion is Trading in Jita, where I buy and sell named modules. I am not using the isk that I have invested in the market (About 200 mil in escrow and 150 mil in sell orders) as it is not enough, and as it is the only source of income that I have kept constant for nearly a year, and I wish to keep it that way.
I have the skills to make T2 Cruisers and invent them (frigate Construction lvl 4, Cruiser Constructing lvl 4, plus lots of invention skills)
How?
I will be open about my buisness plan, I will not be vague aout it, I will tell you exactly what I will be doing and why I think it will work.
So, if I manage to get 500 mil isk in investment.
Firstly I will buy a Bellicose BPO, which costs around 45 mil. I already have bought an Arbitrator BPO.
I will also have to buy a Minmatar ship data interface, which is around 50 mil. I already have the Amarr one.
I will then Set up a small caldari Tower somewhere in Highsec (Not good to say where I will set it up though  )
With this highsec POS I will have a lab or 2 where I can copy my BPOs (and also invent the BPCs). This is not such a good Idea with just 2 BPOs, But I am planning to expand my T2 production soon, which will make is justifiable. It will only cost 1.5 mil per day, and will be defended with as amny turrets as it can fit.
It costs around 4 mil to attempt one invent one with a full run BPC (Which is what I will be using) Chance of Success is almost 50%, so it costs around 8 mil to invent the BPC for the Recon Ship. (I worked this all out on my excel sheet) I will then be buying the components for the ship. Using my excel sheet and online invention tools, it adds up to about 81 mil (+ or - 1 mil)
On the market a Curse sells for about 105 mil 
So:
Out of the 500 mil
100 mil to the BPO and interface
150 mil to the POS
That gives me 250 mil to buy components for my first batch of Recon Ships
For each ship it is 80 mil, so that gives me enough isk to build 3 (I will fund the invention process myself for the first batch)
That leaves me with 10 mil, a research POS, and 3 Recon Ships (Which are being built) I would the sell the recon ships for about 100 mil each, making 300 mil.
With that 300 mil I will then buy the components for more Recon ships. the amount I can build at one time will be little at first, but it will increase as the isk I have at any one time increases. In the end, I will have much more than enough to repay my investors plus the intrest.
The investors gain a 48% increase in isk over 6 months, and I get to start my T2 production business.
Any suggestions about how my investment could be improved please tell me .
Thanks for reading
Dan
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Arous Drephius
Perkone
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Posted - 2009.05.26 12:57:00 -
[2]
I suggest you get in touch with an auditor to confirm that you do indeed have the skills and BPO that you claim, and that you do trade in Jita and have been for a while.
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Romanov DeBeers
Gallente
Small Gods
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Posted - 2009.05.26 13:50:00 -
[3]
Your success rate is likely to be closer to 30% than 50% so I would re-visit your figures.
I would suggest that you eliminate most of your costs by joining a research corp/alliance who can give you access to a research POS. There is little point running one POS for the quantity of activity this enterprise will require.
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Tuborg
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.05.26 13:50:00 -
[4]
How will you move the finished ships to the market hub? Cruisers are quite big. Do you have a freighter and the skills to fly it?
How long does it take to make a 1-run cruiser BPC? How many invented BPCs will you be able to produce per week under typical conditions?
What happens if (when) the price falls once you start offloading your extra supply on the market?
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Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.05.26 13:54:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Romanov DeBeers
Your success rate is likely to be closer to 30% than 50% so I would re-visit your figures.
I would suggest that you eliminate most of your costs by joining a research corp/alliance who can give you access to a research POS. There is little point running one POS for the quantity of activity this enterprise will require.
If you join up with NER, I'd be more than happy to use my existing BPO library to provide you prints at a cost well below what it would cost to run a POS |
Mudad
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.05.26 14:02:00 -
[6]
Just some initial thoughts on cruiser invention, since I have been building them for some time.
Max run BPV's are usualy not worth it on cruisers and below, it only adds 1 run IF you use a Decryptor with also adds runs. Therefore ties up a BPO and lab slot for a long time with little return.
Base invention chance for Cruisers is 30% with level 4 skills not 50% unless you use a Decryptor which improves invention chance. Linkage
Dont expect to get 1 T2 BPC for every 4 tries, expect and plan for bad runs. My worst run to date is 22 failures in a row, but equaly I have invented enough to see good runs equal this out.
Decryptors - Sometimes its worth using them and sometimes not. Depends entirely on Moon Mineral prices. Use a decent cost calculator Like this oneIt will also tell you how much gain you will get from a max run BPC
POS costs need to be built into your costs, you need an adequate turnover of ships/modules to cover this cost
Unless you are selling in Jita (dont expect 105mil at the moment on a Curse) you will need capital to keep your lines running while your stock sells at a much slower rate elsewhere.
Originally by: CCP Whisper
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Boo hoo. Cry some more.
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Skaggz
Hooride Raiders
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Posted - 2009.05.26 14:20:00 -
[7]
Quote:
My main proffesion is Trading in Jita, where I buy and sell named modules. I am not using the isk that I have invested in the market (About 200 mil in escrow and 150 mil in sell orders) as it is not enough, and as it is the only source of income that I have kept constant for nearly a year, and I wish to keep it that way.
So, correct me if I'm wrong. You've been station trading for nearly a year and you have ~350M tied up in the market currently. You are asking for 500M not because it would be a little extra cash to help you get started, but because you don't have that much?
I'm not trying to toot my own horn by saying "HA HA I've got more ISK than you!" But, from my own experience, it's really pretty easy to drum up 500M from trading alone. I mean, I was willing to give Akita T 500M to get her 'scam' off the ground, and I've only been serously involved in trading for about 6-7 months. It just seems kinda odd to invest only 500M in someone who cannot make that on his own after trading for nearly a year.
Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't 150M to set up a small tower POS a little low? You may need to rethink that.
I don't know much about invention, so I'm not going to comment on that. But it does seem you need to recalculate.
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azalea anastasia
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Posted - 2009.05.26 14:31:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Skaggz
So, correct me if I'm wrong. You've been station trading for nearly a year and you have ~350M tied up in the market currently. You are asking for 500M not because it would be a little extra cash to help you get started, but because you don't have that much?
First thing that caught my eye too.Only reason i can think of is that he means he allways spend the rest of his profits on pvp or something else BUT kept this amount tied up to make sure he made isk to keep pvp going.Tbh it seems verry unlikely someone only earns that amount after a year trading or/and keeps motivated to do so for such a small profit.
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glas mir
Reaction Scientific
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Posted - 2009.05.26 14:55:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
If you join up with NER, I'd be more than happy to use my existing BPO library to provide you prints at a cost well below what it would cost to run a POS
this is a very good option, probably your best option.
A research alliance can provide the slots on the scale you need for a cost that is very reasonable. A POS, even in hi sec, is a liability. If you still need investment I would want to know how much you've made trading and where it has gone as well as a slightly more detailed breakdown of costs per ship, so I could evaluate your profit figures.
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Clair Bear
Perkone
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Posted - 2009.05.26 15:33:00 -
[10]
Now that the gate bug is fixed you can simply use alts jumpcloned into 0.0 npc stations to do your copying. Zero fuel, 53 isk/hour. Using a few untrained scout alts and a covops it's fairly trivial to whisk the copies back to highsec every week or so.
But yeah, I'm with the others in this thread. It seems like you lack invention knowledge, bigtime. I would estimate your odds of success in hull invention at zero. Hull invention requires several B to not get wiped out by a bad luck streak or ill-timed nerf or buff.
I suggest you use your manualts to crank out t2 components for a while to get a feel for the t2 market at a grassroots level and build up a wallet while copying prints at NPC stations. Then decide if you really want to get into the whole hull invention business or not.
And in summary, bigger blobs are the answer. Now what was the question? |
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Ms Delerium
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Posted - 2009.05.26 15:52:00 -
[11]
lulz @ your market escrow after a year...
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Nahjar Qu'in
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Posted - 2009.05.26 18:02:00 -
[12]
Those cruisers have all been hit hard by recent nerfs. Why them?
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Dark-Rising
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Posted - 2009.05.27 12:11:00 -
[13]
Not to rain on your parade, but I think your industrial plan is a bit shallow.
1) Skills at 4 when they make such a massive difference vs the same at 5?
2) I am not sure Huginn and Rapier are "the hot stuff" of these days.
3) Your minimizing about POS costs is mindboggling and the range of choices is debatable. The operational costs stack up over time and the cost of opportunity for so few BPOs is prohibitive. You'd want to conduct some trials and see if using pre-made services is not cheaper, before embarking in fixed costs.
4) If I were you, I'd start with something "liquid" like T2 modules and make my shoulders in T2 production, before embarking in ships. T2 ships imho require either an established portfolio of customers or some great money to keep immobilized in still unsold products.
5) You forgot to mention your availability for an audit, but then, I am not sure you'll get an audit for 500M that easily.
6) Last but not least (first actually), if you are a "nearly 1 year" Jita specimen, you should claim better than that business size. That size hints negatively at perspective investors.
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destinationunreachable
Hello Kitty Fanclub
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Posted - 2009.05.27 12:44:00 -
[14]
I have to agree with most of the previous posters:
- 150m for a even small tower is way too little. The tower itself is 100m, one moblab is 90m To start off you would need an additional advanced mob lab for 150m for the copy slots
- fuel costs for the first month will be at around 30-40m. You should buy for 2 months in advance
- each invention try costs you (minus pos/BPO) around 4m (it's actually 5m, but I calculate with worse case prices), you have a ca. 30% chance (not 50%), so to invent 5 BPC for production you need to invest 60m alone. (Skills at 4 is enough)
- other have already mentioned the logistics problem
From own experience: Looking back I would say, that you need at least 1b (absolute minimum), rather 2b to start off making profit with invention/T2 production. You only make decent profit if you:
* have at least one copy alt, who is constantly copying
* the larger the BPO collection is, the better. The market moves and you need to move as well. The curse might be profitable now, but what about in 1 month ? (WTS: Falcon BPCs -4/-4  )
* you need to have constantly buy orders open for the parts you need. Otherwise your logistics chain is stuck and you are either forced to buy from sales order (lower margin) or wasting precious production slots. Of my current assets, probably 1/3 are in escrow, 1/3 in hangar/transport, 1/3 out in sales order
I cannot see that you are making much profit (if at all) the first several months. To get going I would advise you to use either research alliance copy slots or get together with someone else. And start with modules/ammo.
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Dagda Morr
Seppuku Warriors
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Posted - 2009.05.27 13:42:00 -
[15]
Just one small question - you appear to have forgotten the datacores you'll need - are these part of the componant costs or are they "free because I get them myself"?
Please resize sig to a maximum of 400 x 120 - Mitnal
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destinationunreachable
Hello Kitty Fanclub
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Posted - 2009.05.27 13:53:00 -
[16]
the datacores should be the "4m per invention job" cost.
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Dagda Morr
Seppuku Warriors
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Posted - 2009.05.27 14:25:00 -
[17]
Originally by: destinationunreachable
the datacores should be the "4m per invention job" cost.
Yup - my mistake.
Please resize sig to a maximum of 400 x 120 - Mitnal
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Clair Bear
Perkone
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Posted - 2009.05.27 14:28:00 -
[18]
Originally by: destinationunreachable
the datacores should be the "4m per invention job" cost.
Apparently not. If you value your BPCs at 200k and datacores at jita sell prices you're looking at 5,159,200 a shot for a pilgrim/curse invention job. Add a sacred manifesto (best) or formation layout (not too shabby) and the costs climb to nearly 10M a try.
It's about 100k more to shoot for the Rapier/Huginn, which will lose you ~5 mil per invention attempt if cooked without decryptors.
I have no idea who bothers to invent any recon -- HACs are 20-50% more profitable across the board.
And in summary, bigger blobs are the answer. Now what was the question? |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.05.27 14:58:00 -
[19]
Using L4 nvention skills and L5 in the other relevant ones, with conservative estimates on POS fuel prices, also using material BUY orders and ship SELL orders at current Jita market going rates, considering manufacture done in a NPC STATION, also selecting the most profitable decryptors, we get:
Huginn - always a net loss, don't even try
Rapier
with Assembly Instructions
Average of 1.53 days lab time per BPC run, 1.78 days for manufacture run
Average of ~8.9 mil ISK profit per sold unit
Since you're only using ONE blueprint of each kind (so you don't have a manufacture bottleneck), you're looking at 5.8 mil ISK/day per blueprint.
And that, assuming that all goes well - I would recommend having AT LEAST enough materials for 10 invention runs beforehand, if not more, to avoid the expected "bad streak" results that are quite common even with a roughly 55% invention chance (that's how much you'd get in the above combination) - so that's at least 380 mil ISK extra (I'd even recommend double of that, if not more).
So... 11.6 mil ISK/day from the two blueprints (and a whole lot of work AND RISK in the face of the RNG-God, let's not even talk about the sheer amount of hauling required)... around 350 mil ISK per month expectable profit on average... pretty weak for such a heavy workload, I might say - it would not even cover the PLEX cost nowadays.
But... well... at least you're doing something, and it could theoretically scale to 50 mil ISK/day or thereabouts if you get up to 10 blueprints total (you'd be limited by the manufacture bottleneck this time - and you would probably find it increasingly difficult to unload your merchandise, or simply haul all of this around - you'll probably want to buy a freighter by then).
___
Personal opinion : not worth bothering, not at this time, or certainly not at this (too small) scale.
EVE issues|Mining revamp|Build stuff|Make ISK |
Clair Bear
Perkone
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Posted - 2009.05.27 15:41:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Akita T
with Assembly Instructions
Average of 1.53 days lab time per BPC run, 1.78 days for manufacture run
Average of ~8.9 mil ISK profit per sold unit
You would think so, but it doesn't quite work that way. The reason the Rapier is a high margin item is because of low volume. With each success batch being 4 units you would be a big percentage of Jita daily volume every print you succeed on. Adding 10% to the current supply (with just one print constantly in production) is not going to leave you with 25M a ship build margins. You'll crash the prices to the levels of rook & falcon (roughly build cost from a -4 -4 print) in just a few weeks.
You'd need to use operations handbook at the absolute worst to give yourself a bit of breathing room in case you suddenly find yourself competing with "my datacores and POS fuel I mine myself are free LOL" guys.
And in summary, bigger blobs are the answer. Now what was the question? |
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Jastra
Gallente
Black Thorne Corporation
Black Thorne Alliance
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Posted - 2009.05.27 16:13:00 -
[21]
Hi Danny
I'll try and just add to the constructive feedback you've had thus far.
No.1) Get a spreadsheet
No.2) Make sure you put in there verything you need to use to build a ship, materials, components, etc.
No.3) Now go get current market prices for all of those and fire them in with the right quantities.
Add a considered sum for the BPC/Datacores
If you do not end up with a positive sum at the end, accept you have an issue.
No.4) Work out how much it would cost to make the components instead of buying them
Now repeat no.3 and if the figure is still negative I advise you stop now.
A few other things.....
I would consider the POS a waste of time and ISK for the operation you suggest, a bit of serching round will find you either NPC or hireable labs at a much more effiicient cost ratio.
If you need to buy the BPOs for the components ass another 40-70 million ISK to your costs.
Remember that your logistic chain is now longer - you need an ISK supply to buy materials components, manufacture and then wait for you to be able to sell your product - and you need to wait for someone to buy it...
just my isks worth
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.05.27 16:24:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Clair Bear
You would think so, but it doesn't quite work that way. The reason the Rapier is a high margin item is because of low volume.
I was merely pointing out the "best case scenario", which was in my eyes pretty pathetic, so I didn't feel the need to drive the point any further
EVE issues|Mining revamp|Build stuff|Make ISK |
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