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Cherok
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Posted - 2004.09.10 09:20:00 -
[1]
From all the recent calls for missile nerf, it seems the main problem here is the ability of the Raven to murder frigs.
This is mainly done by using a couple heavy Nos on a mwding frig, scrambling them and launching a couple torps at them.
The other alternative is if they get within 10km of your Raven, you Web them, Scramble them, torp them.
Ok...those are the 2 unbalanced situations that we face with Torps/Cruise ganking Frigs.
Now let me present a situation where Raven sucks compared to other ships of its class:
You warp to gate, find yourself about 30-40km away from 2 battleships and a frig sized ship setup to mwd to you, web and scramble you. As you launch your drones and start firing your cruise missiles at one of the battleships, they are already pounding away at your shields. By the time I get a nice stream of missiles going at the enemy I've already lost half my shields. I'm scrambled and webbed and my 8xlight/med. drones are taking a long time to kill this freakin frig.
By the time my guns actually START doing damage to the Battleship, my shield are almost gone. (fighting 2 amarr ships doing lots of EM/Therm damage)
This is a DISADVANTAGE of the Raven compared to turret based ships. Inability to do immediate damage to the enemy.
Use MWD to close the distance U say? Ok..sure, lets make it so that the Apoc and Megathron loses 1/2 its armor points if it mounts an MWD...that would make it even right? Armor is Amarr and Gallente strongpoint while Shields is Caldari strong point. Yet both gain the same bonus for using this module. Fair?
Anyway, to make a long story short...had I been in a armor tanked apoc or Megathron, I'd be able to dish out IMMEDIATE damage to the enemy and tank the hell out of these 2 jokers. Perhaps I wouldn't kill either of them, but I could tank their firepower with cap to spare in an armor tank...but in Raven cap is a major problem to attempt to tank this with any hope of retaining your cap. Some have even armor tanked the Raven which does work. However, with roughly 11k powergrid with max skills, armor tanking vs damage output is a JOKE!
So...does Raven need a boost? HELL NO! Raven is fine the way it is...its got its advantages in that it has frig defences and does great damage close in on the enemy. Its got its disadvantages too. Take the ability away from it to defend itself against frigs is simply too much.
I would like to see frigs survive a little better at 15km on a raven than being simply nos+scramble+cruise but then perhaps we need to look at nerfing Nos...not the main weapon of the Caldar that already have major drawbacks.
And for those of you that say, "WAH, Use Cruise they do great damage and hit for 100% damage each time"
What if you activated all your turrets on enemy ship and nothing happened? You sit there for like 15 seconds while you get pounded by the enemy and say "WTF! I'm lagged out over here!" Finally after 15 seconds your turrets start firing and hitting the enemy. Then when you deactive your guns, they continue to fire for 15 seconds wasting all that ammo. (which cost you almost nothing compared to missiles)
This is called lag right? Well..that is what you deal with when using missiles. Right now that inbalance is made up by the fact that Missiles hit for Maximum damage on all damage types (when they do hit) meaning they work well against all ship classes at close range. They also use no cap. (like minmatar)
The downside is they are slow, suck at med and completely worthless at long range (thats right, 40+ seconds before you do damage?!), don't have named modules to improve damge/rof, and can't be remotely boosted in anyway.
Sounds like a fair trade off to me. 
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Cherok
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Posted - 2004.09.10 09:20:00 -
[2]
From all the recent calls for missile nerf, it seems the main problem here is the ability of the Raven to murder frigs.
This is mainly done by using a couple heavy Nos on a mwding frig, scrambling them and launching a couple torps at them.
The other alternative is if they get within 10km of your Raven, you Web them, Scramble them, torp them.
Ok...those are the 2 unbalanced situations that we face with Torps/Cruise ganking Frigs.
Now let me present a situation where Raven sucks compared to other ships of its class:
You warp to gate, find yourself about 30-40km away from 2 battleships and a frig sized ship setup to mwd to you, web and scramble you. As you launch your drones and start firing your cruise missiles at one of the battleships, they are already pounding away at your shields. By the time I get a nice stream of missiles going at the enemy I've already lost half my shields. I'm scrambled and webbed and my 8xlight/med. drones are taking a long time to kill this freakin frig.
By the time my guns actually START doing damage to the Battleship, my shield are almost gone. (fighting 2 amarr ships doing lots of EM/Therm damage)
This is a DISADVANTAGE of the Raven compared to turret based ships. Inability to do immediate damage to the enemy.
Use MWD to close the distance U say? Ok..sure, lets make it so that the Apoc and Megathron loses 1/2 its armor points if it mounts an MWD...that would make it even right? Armor is Amarr and Gallente strongpoint while Shields is Caldari strong point. Yet both gain the same bonus for using this module. Fair?
Anyway, to make a long story short...had I been in a armor tanked apoc or Megathron, I'd be able to dish out IMMEDIATE damage to the enemy and tank the hell out of these 2 jokers. Perhaps I wouldn't kill either of them, but I could tank their firepower with cap to spare in an armor tank...but in Raven cap is a major problem to attempt to tank this with any hope of retaining your cap. Some have even armor tanked the Raven which does work. However, with roughly 11k powergrid with max skills, armor tanking vs damage output is a JOKE!
So...does Raven need a boost? HELL NO! Raven is fine the way it is...its got its advantages in that it has frig defences and does great damage close in on the enemy. Its got its disadvantages too. Take the ability away from it to defend itself against frigs is simply too much.
I would like to see frigs survive a little better at 15km on a raven than being simply nos+scramble+cruise but then perhaps we need to look at nerfing Nos...not the main weapon of the Caldar that already have major drawbacks.
And for those of you that say, "WAH, Use Cruise they do great damage and hit for 100% damage each time"
What if you activated all your turrets on enemy ship and nothing happened? You sit there for like 15 seconds while you get pounded by the enemy and say "WTF! I'm lagged out over here!" Finally after 15 seconds your turrets start firing and hitting the enemy. Then when you deactive your guns, they continue to fire for 15 seconds wasting all that ammo. (which cost you almost nothing compared to missiles)
This is called lag right? Well..that is what you deal with when using missiles. Right now that inbalance is made up by the fact that Missiles hit for Maximum damage on all damage types (when they do hit) meaning they work well against all ship classes at close range. They also use no cap. (like minmatar)
The downside is they are slow, suck at med and completely worthless at long range (thats right, 40+ seconds before you do damage?!), don't have named modules to improve damge/rof, and can't be remotely boosted in anyway.
Sounds like a fair trade off to me.
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JoCool
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Posted - 2004.09.10 09:30:00 -
[3]
Yes every ship has its strengths and weaknesses, suppose that's why the devs delayed the missile changes.
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JoCool
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Posted - 2004.09.10 09:30:00 -
[4]
Yes every ship has its strengths and weaknesses, suppose that's why the devs delayed the missile changes.
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Lord Morgan
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Posted - 2004.09.10 09:41:00 -
[5]
In your thread I can nothing read about the BIG advantage of a raven that missiles do not have tracking and hit their target with 100% damage independent from distance, speed and angle of your target. That more than equalizes the disadvantage that missiles do no immediate damage.
Also do not forget that a raven can use F.O.F. missiles when jammed. Other non-missile ships do not have F.O.F. blasters, lasers or railguns. Also a big advantage of the Raven.
And it can use 6 heavy drones for defense against frigates - I donŠt understand why you shouldnŠt be able to defend against frigates with these. They destroy each frigate within seconds. If the frigates are so far away that the drones need a very long time to attack them then those frigates are no danger for you as they only have an attack range of 10km or so.
The Megathron is designed as a short-range fighter as designed for using Blasters. Therefore it is OK that it has an advantage in using an MWD because it is armour tanked. As compensation to that the Raven can use a shield boost amplifier - there is no equivalent for armour tanking. |
Lord Morgan
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Posted - 2004.09.10 09:41:00 -
[6]
In your thread I can nothing read about the BIG advantage of a raven that missiles do not have tracking and hit their target with 100% damage independent from distance, speed and angle of your target. That more than equalizes the disadvantage that missiles do no immediate damage.
Also do not forget that a raven can use F.O.F. missiles when jammed. Other non-missile ships do not have F.O.F. blasters, lasers or railguns. Also a big advantage of the Raven.
And it can use 6 heavy drones for defense against frigates - I donŠt understand why you shouldnŠt be able to defend against frigates with these. They destroy each frigate within seconds. If the frigates are so far away that the drones need a very long time to attack them then those frigates are no danger for you as they only have an attack range of 10km or so.
The Megathron is designed as a short-range fighter as designed for using Blasters. Therefore it is OK that it has an advantage in using an MWD because it is armour tanked. As compensation to that the Raven can use a shield boost amplifier - there is no equivalent for armour tanking. |
Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2004.09.10 09:50:00 -
[7]
Actually, the Gallente strongpoint isn't armor.
It's structure.
_______________________________________________
Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know.
Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online
Solutions to your issues. |
Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2004.09.10 09:50:00 -
[8]
Actually, the Gallente strongpoint isn't armor.
It's structure.
_______________________________________________
Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know.
Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online
Solutions to your issues. |
JoCool
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Posted - 2004.09.10 09:57:00 -
[9]
 Originally by: Rod Blaine
Actually, the Gallente strongpoint isn't armor.
It's structure.
Megathron has good powergrid, weapons taking few powergrid, lots of lowslots = good armor tank. It's not about the sum of HP noob :)
Just teasin' ya, btw the Dominix is a hybrid, more of a shield tank.
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JoCool
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Posted - 2004.09.10 09:57:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Actually, the Gallente strongpoint isn't armor.
It's structure.
Megathron has good powergrid, weapons taking few powergrid, lots of lowslots = good armor tank. It's not about the sum of HP noob :)
Just teasin' ya, btw the Dominix is a hybrid, more of a shield tank.
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Latex Mistress
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Posted - 2004.09.10 10:28:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Cherok
From all the recent calls for missile nerf, it seems the main problem here is the ability of the Raven to murder frigs.
This is a problem?
How?
If ECM is an act of aggression, why am I not on kill mails?
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Latex Mistress
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Posted - 2004.09.10 10:28:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Cherok
From all the recent calls for missile nerf, it seems the main problem here is the ability of the Raven to murder frigs.
This is a problem?
How?
If ECM is an act of aggression, why am I not on kill mails?
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sly sky
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Posted - 2004.09.10 10:30:00 -
[13]
Agree Cherok
(alsoarmortanking seams alot better then shield atm)
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sly sky
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Posted - 2004.09.10 10:30:00 -
[14]
Agree Cherok
(alsoarmortanking seams alot better then shield atm)
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Grim Vandal
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Posted - 2004.09.10 10:49:00 -
[15]
read here to see the how we will solve the problem
Greetings Grim |
Grim Vandal
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Posted - 2004.09.10 10:49:00 -
[16]
read here to see the how we will solve the problem
Greetings Grim |
Cherok
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Posted - 2004.09.10 13:52:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Grim Vandal
read here to see the how we will solve the problem
Yeah, and I totally disagree with those proposals as well as Tomb's nerf.
We need to adjust the agility of the large missiles, thats all. I don't want to see 30km blasts doing 1/5th the damage to a frig than a Battleship.
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Cherok
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Posted - 2004.09.10 13:52:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Grim Vandal
read here to see the how we will solve the problem
Yeah, and I totally disagree with those proposals as well as Tomb's nerf.
We need to adjust the agility of the large missiles, thats all. I don't want to see 30km blasts doing 1/5th the damage to a frig than a Battleship.
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Vigilant
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Posted - 2004.09.10 14:11:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Vigilant on 10/09/2004 14:14:41
Originally by: Grim Vandal
read here to see the how we will solve the problem
Ok..I am going to start Crusading against you spamming every post...  Have you gotten a Dev Response yet Grim? Didn't think so.... So please stop spamming your Thread in everyone else....most have read it....
Its pretty annoying...
Devs have a plan...if they find your post of value...they will implement some or all of it...
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Vigilant
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Posted - 2004.09.10 14:11:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Vigilant on 10/09/2004 14:14:41
Originally by: Grim Vandal
read here to see the how we will solve the problem
Ok..I am going to start Crusading against you spamming every post... Have you gotten a Dev Response yet Grim? Didn't think so.... So please stop spamming your Thread in everyone else....most have read it....
Its pretty annoying...
Devs have a plan...if they find your post of value...they will implement some or all of it...
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JoCool
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Posted - 2004.09.10 14:37:00 -
[21]
Grim's totally right mate.
@Cherok
Missiles have no agility and never will - they don't have physics and never will. Why? 'Cos you'd kill the server. It would recklessly, totally, utterly, horribly, violently******the servers.
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JoCool
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Posted - 2004.09.10 14:37:00 -
[22]
Grim's totally right mate.
@Cherok
Missiles have no agility and never will - they don't have physics and never will. Why? 'Cos you'd kill the server. It would recklessly, totally, utterly, horribly, violently******the servers.
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Jazz Bo
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Posted - 2004.09.10 14:44:00 -
[23]
Yeah, the Raven is pretty adept at killing frigs, if it has been specifically fitted for that.
Considering in has 9500 base PG, and 2 x Heavy Nos use 4000 you have to sacrifice quite a bit of offense to be able to do that.
Originally by: DB Preacher
Celestial Apocalypse - Brave souls fighting the endless smak.
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Jazz Bo
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Posted - 2004.09.10 14:44:00 -
[24]
Yeah, the Raven is pretty adept at killing frigs, if it has been specifically fitted for that.
Considering in has 9500 base PG, and 2 x Heavy Nos use 4000 you have to sacrifice quite a bit of offense to be able to do that.
Originally by: DB Preacher
Celestial Apocalypse - Brave souls fighting the endless smak.
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Vigilant
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Posted - 2004.09.10 14:49:00 -
[25]
Originally by: JoCool
Grim's totally right mate.
@Cherok
Missiles have no agility and never will - they don't have physics and never will. Why? 'Cos you'd kill the server. It would recklessly, totally, utterly, horribly, violently******the servers.
JoCool...Grim maybe right...but there is not reason to be spamming it in everyone else's threads...
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Vigilant
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Posted - 2004.09.10 14:49:00 -
[26]
Originally by: JoCool
Grim's totally right mate.
@Cherok
Missiles have no agility and never will - they don't have physics and never will. Why? 'Cos you'd kill the server. It would recklessly, totally, utterly, horribly, violently******the servers.
JoCool...Grim maybe right...but there is not reason to be spamming it in everyone else's threads...
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Grim Vandal
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Posted - 2004.09.10 16:14:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Grim Vandal on 10/09/2004 16:17:50
ya im sorry for the spamming but I for sure think that it would annoy even more people if I would describe the change in each thread which would prolly take one of the pages everytime .... (stick to one thread and post there, but it seems many dont like it and therefor dont wont to bump it) so again im sorry but its needed none the less to get not only your attention but everyones ....
Cherok, I agree an agility change would be most welcome ...
... however it is not possible...
... it wont ever happen ...
... sadly the devs do know it since a few months back they tested missile agility on a secret server but it failed.
the physic engine cant handle it ...
its not possible to actually miss the target...
now it would be possible to to change the agility of the missile but it either hits or runs out of fuel nothing else ... so now think for a few minutes, now it would be even pretty hard to balance it especially vs cruisers since they suffer from pretty low speed already.
now what would we have???? The same problem as today ...
YES IT WOULD CHANGE NOTHING... you will simply fit your n00bish "no brainer" mwd on your frig and outrun, outmaneuver them till the missile runs out of fuel ... sooo plz tell me what your agility change will do if the missile will never be able to acutally miss the target????????
damn it I do know, and I thought about this issue for weeks now... I can tell you for sure that an agility change like it would be possible would not change anything
now for those of you who say so why change it at all? All I can say is you **ols.
So plz understand, your change IS THE BEST ONE EVER! but we also do know that it will and is not possible in a game called eve-online
eg. I talked about missile agility in my thread and I do know that its not possible so the change Tomb proposed isnt that bad at all. Tho he made one GREAT misstake ...
The sig radius of the taret was always part in his calculations, therefor resulting in too low hits from large missiles vs smaller targets.
Now my change is pretty similar but instead of his "shock wave dmg" which is actually the "impact dmg" in my thread, he used the sig radius of the targets ship even in that calculation as well as in the "fake area of effect" dmg calculation.
I do think Tomb is for sure smart enough to konw that himself however I think he doesnt have enough time to write and tell us his thoughts. Now as soon as everyone saw the NOT YET READY missiles on TQ in one of the last patches, many were crying that it totally sucks but without even knowing that this was only one half of the change.
What I want is, to show people how tombs missile change should and prolly would have affected us. Also showing you the problems which will be solved through this change like the "no brainer" mwd or the always fit a nos on your raven, and exactly that change will open the doors for the Bomber class frigs as well.
The change simulates what an agility change would have been done. So I dont see why most of the people are against it.
Greetings Grim |
Grim Vandal
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Posted - 2004.09.10 16:14:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Grim Vandal on 10/09/2004 16:17:50
ya im sorry for the spamming but I for sure think that it would annoy even more people if I would describe the change in each thread which would prolly take one of the pages everytime .... (stick to one thread and post there, but it seems many dont like it and therefor dont wont to bump it) so again im sorry but its needed none the less to get not only your attention but everyones ....
Cherok, I agree an agility change would be most welcome ...
... however it is not possible...
... it wont ever happen ...
... sadly the devs do know it since a few months back they tested missile agility on a secret server but it failed.
the physic engine cant handle it ...
its not possible to actually miss the target...
now it would be possible to to change the agility of the missile but it either hits or runs out of fuel nothing else ... so now think for a few minutes, now it would be even pretty hard to balance it especially vs cruisers since they suffer from pretty low speed already.
now what would we have???? The same problem as today ...
YES IT WOULD CHANGE NOTHING... you will simply fit your n00bish "no brainer" mwd on your frig and outrun, outmaneuver them till the missile runs out of fuel ... sooo plz tell me what your agility change will do if the missile will never be able to acutally miss the target????????
damn it I do know, and I thought about this issue for weeks now... I can tell you for sure that an agility change like it would be possible would not change anything
now for those of you who say so why change it at all? All I can say is you **ols.
So plz understand, your change IS THE BEST ONE EVER! but we also do know that it will and is not possible in a game called eve-online
eg. I talked about missile agility in my thread and I do know that its not possible so the change Tomb proposed isnt that bad at all. Tho he made one GREAT misstake ...
The sig radius of the taret was always part in his calculations, therefor resulting in too low hits from large missiles vs smaller targets.
Now my change is pretty similar but instead of his "shock wave dmg" which is actually the "impact dmg" in my thread, he used the sig radius of the targets ship even in that calculation as well as in the "fake area of effect" dmg calculation.
I do think Tomb is for sure smart enough to konw that himself however I think he doesnt have enough time to write and tell us his thoughts. Now as soon as everyone saw the NOT YET READY missiles on TQ in one of the last patches, many were crying that it totally sucks but without even knowing that this was only one half of the change.
What I want is, to show people how tombs missile change should and prolly would have affected us. Also showing you the problems which will be solved through this change like the "no brainer" mwd or the always fit a nos on your raven, and exactly that change will open the doors for the Bomber class frigs as well.
The change simulates what an agility change would have been done. So I dont see why most of the people are against it.
Greetings Grim |
Liu Kaskakka
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Posted - 2004.09.10 17:34:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Lord Morgan
In your thread I can nothing read about the BIG advantage of a raven that missiles do not have tracking and hit their target with 100% damage independent from distance, speed and angle of your target. That more than equalizes the disadvantage that missiles do no immediate damage.
100% damage my 4ss. Ever heard of defenders or smartbombs? Are there similar modules to block turret fire?
Quote:
And it can use 6 heavy drones for defense against frigates - I donŠt understand why you shouldnŠt be able to defend against frigates with these. They destroy each frigate within seconds.
Yeah, right. Ever tried heavy drones against frigs after the "drone nerf". A 10mn AB ceptor pilot laughs at your heavy drones.
pfffffft ..
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Liu Kaskakka
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Posted - 2004.09.10 17:34:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Lord Morgan
In your thread I can nothing read about the BIG advantage of a raven that missiles do not have tracking and hit their target with 100% damage independent from distance, speed and angle of your target. That more than equalizes the disadvantage that missiles do no immediate damage.
100% damage my 4ss. Ever heard of defenders or smartbombs? Are there similar modules to block turret fire?
Quote:
And it can use 6 heavy drones for defense against frigates - I donŠt understand why you shouldnŠt be able to defend against frigates with these. They destroy each frigate within seconds.
Yeah, right. Ever tried heavy drones against frigs after the "drone nerf". A 10mn AB ceptor pilot laughs at your heavy drones.
pfffffft ..
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