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torenna
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Posted - 2009.05.30 12:52:00 -
[1]
was the dev blog a joke or is this actualy being done, i dont really care but with all the moaning thats going on it seems like a bad time.
any one out there got any opinions on it.
sorry for bad spelling and grammer if its there.
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Ankhesentapemkah
Gallente
Citation Registration Commission
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Posted - 2009.05.30 13:06:00 -
[2]
There should be a lot more NON CALDARI agents.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.05.30 13:33:00 -
[3]
PROBLEM : Basement is overflowing with water from a ruptured pipe.
NORMAL solution : fix the pipe, clean up the water.
CCP solution : install a pump to drain water from the basement.
EVE issues|Mining revamp|Build stuff|Make ISK |
Rotting corpse
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Posted - 2009.05.30 13:37:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Akita T
PROBLEM : Basement is overflowing with water from a ruptured pipe.
NORMAL solution : fix the pipe, clean up the water.
CCP solution : install a pump to drain water from the basement.
Although I disagree... LOL, GOOD ONE!
Running MEHLottery, contact me by mail for tickets! |
Darkerz Reloaded
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.05.30 13:39:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Akita T
PROBLEM : Basement is overflowing with water from a ruptured pipe.
NORMAL solution : fix the pipe, clean up the water.
CCP solution : install a pump to drain water from the basement.
Gold.
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Lazarann
Caldari
Balls Deep Inc.
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Posted - 2009.05.30 13:44:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Akita T
PROBLEM : Basement is overflowing with water from a ruptured pipe.
NORMAL solution : fix the pipe, clean up the water.
CCP solution : install a pump to drain water from the basement.
I'm going to guess that adding more agents to spread people out more and reduce the overall number of players in mission hubs is much cheaper than upgrading your hardware to reduce lag to the point that it would have a similar impact.
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Dar Vender
Gallente
Oblivion.
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Posted - 2009.05.30 13:56:00 -
[7]
well if you enjoy running missions, at least you will have a choice and wont have to run them in busy trade hubs, although it will probally just move the trade hub with time.
If you enjoy empire wars then maybe you can fight in a mission system with a little less lag 
And if you don't mission then it ain't going to affect u much so who cares.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.05.30 13:57:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Lazarann
I'm going to guess that adding more agents to spread people out more and reduce the overall number of players in mission hubs is much cheaper than upgrading your hardware to reduce lag to the point that it would have a similar impact.
Not what I was talking about
The reason why any system lags is because too many people go there, until it lags. The easiest way to make a system not lag anymore is to make the system less desirable to be in, while making other systems more desirable to go in.
While their solution takes a fundamentally correct approach (they make OTHER systems slightly more attractive), they completely ignore the underlying problem, namely all that will solve is slightly spread a minority of the of the existing playerbase from those missionhubs to the new agents (all of them are in highsec, by the way).
Why they should have focused on would have been to make other areas of the game much more attractive (income-wise) so that more people would be tempted to LEAVE highsec altogether, instead of moving a few jumps in another highsec system.
In other words, yes, they solve the problem of "overflowing water" (too many people running L4 missions in highsec) temporarily, as a bandaid, by lessening the pressure and adding the "water pump" (new L4 agents in highsec), which will work for a while, until the "pipe" ruptures even more (additional players filling the new L4 agent areas and older L4 agent areas until it lags again, in MORE systems this time) instead of solving the real problem of the "broken pipe" (make lowsec/0.0 missions or lowsec/0.0 in general more profitable to live in).
EVE issues|Mining revamp|Build stuff|Make ISK |
Spurty
Caldari
Ore Mongers
BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2009.05.30 14:15:00 -
[9]
so what you are really saying is you want all market hubs to be come lowsec system right?
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
Thus I AM BETTER THAN YOU.
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Qoi
New Eden Warriors
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Posted - 2009.05.30 14:15:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Akita T
(make lowsec/0.0 missions or lowsec/0.0 in general more profitable to live in).
That wouldn't change anything for Level 4 Highsec Mission runners. Who would use a PVE Ship with PVE Skills and PVE Modules in a PVP Environment?
I enjoy running missions without having to look over my shoulder every 3 Seconds (And I run Level 1 Missions if i feel like it, talk about profitability).
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Matrix Skye
Caldari
State War Academy
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Posted - 2009.05.30 14:22:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Akita T
PROBLEM : Basement is overflowing with water from a ruptured pipe.
NORMAL solution : fix the pipe, clean up the water.
CCP solution : install a pump to drain water from the basement.
Because the best way to prove your point against those you disagree with is by setting up a strawman and knocking it over with just one punch. Well done.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.05.30 14:43:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Because the best way to prove your point against those you disagree with is by setting up a strawman and knocking it over with just one punch. Well done.
It's called ANALOGY, and I have explained it in more detail in the next post.
If you want to call it a "strawman", then by all means, please explain exactly how the analogy is deeply flawed as opposed to relatively accurate.
Originally by: Qoi
Originally by: Akita T
(make lowsec/0.0 missions or lowsec/0.0 in general more profitable to live in).
That wouldn't change anything for Level 4 Highsec Mission runners. Who would use a PVE Ship with PVE Skills and PVE Modules in a PVP Environment?
I enjoy running missions without having to look over my shoulder every 3 Seconds (And I run Level 1 Missions if i feel like it, talk about profitability).
To answer that, let me present to you a set of hypothetical situations.
Assume a relatively decent ship with a L4 PVE fit costs you about 250 mil ISK if destroyed after the bottom line, and assume you make around 20 mil ISK per hour in it running L4s in highsec in ALMOST total safety.
Obviously, if lowsec missions pay 20 mil ISK per hour or less, you'd have to be crazy to run L4s in lowsec.
Now, what if you would get 30 mil ISK/hour in lowsec ? Granted, most people would say, nah, That's 25 hours of extra work just to break even for one single ship loss, so screw it, why even bother. Almost nobody would go there, and roughly, that's about where we are right now (maybe even a bit worse).
What if it's 40 mil ISK/hour ? Now, probably some people would start considering it. It might not get all that many people interested, but those that already live in lowsec and have highsec L4 mission-running alts might actually drop their highsec alts altogether and run missions with their lowsec ones. Or move the highsec alt to the lowsec they reside in with their PVP main. Anyway, less highsec mission-runners.
Suppose however it's 60 mil ISK/hour though. Hmm, now, that does sound a bit more interesting... it's barely 4 hours to break even between destroyed ships, even some "utter carebears" might give it a whirl, just to see how it goes.
Some mission-runners (especially those with a half-decent corp, even if most are carebearish) would consider going. There would already be a noticeable drain of highsec mission-runners towards lowsec. Markets would start to spring up, and traders in blockade runners would start running dangerous but lucrative trade runs with highsec hubs, most likely.
But... what if it's 100 mil ISK/hour ? Now, it's barely 3 hours of mission-running, hell, at that much of a differential, I'd get a friend or two, or three, and start running L4s in lowsec in PVP fits for that kind of a payoff !
The abundance of loot and draw of wealth should infuse new life into lowsec easily, why slave away so long in highsec when with a bit of care lowsec could give you pretty much the same results in less time ?
Heck, I might even say it's a bit TOO good to live in lowsec !
Now, how about the absurd figure of 200 mil ISK/hour for L4 lowsec missions on average ?
I would bet you only bloody newbies who barely manage to fit their ships and work together with other people would still bother with highsec L4s. I mean, if all it takes is one or two missions to pay for your entire ship, everybody and their dog would risk it eventually and never go back.
So what about an even more absurd figure, say closer to 500 mil ISK/hour for lowsec L4s ?
It would basically be the same situation we see today with highsec and lowsec, only IN REVERSE !
This would certainly be far, far too good for lowsec.
So you see... it's only a matter of reward amount.
You can have both too much or too little compared to the risks involved.
No matter how high the risks are, if you increase the rewards high enough, it can become TOO GOOD.
It's all a matter of balance, not too small, not too large - just find it.
EVE issues|Mining revamp|Build stuff|Make ISK |
Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.05.30 14:55:00 -
[13]
Ridiculous ammount of new caldari agents, the other races deserve more agents, but the idea is decent (far better idea than upgrading hardware).
When more mission runners come to low sec, more pirates will gather there and make sure it stays practicly deserted systems, what they seem to prefer.
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torenna
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Posted - 2009.05.30 15:26:00 -
[14]
suppose your right akita the rewards are the problem.
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something somethingdark
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Posted - 2009.05.30 15:27:00 -
[15]
its a nice amount of agents and most of them useless because they neighbor lowsec systems and therefore dont fix ANYTHING ccp detailed in the blog of what they wanted to do
why are some few lvl4 agents swarmed over ?
because they are
a) in highsec (i.e. you can grind in a semi relaxed manner)
b) no lowsec systems 2-3 jumps over (belive it or not mission runners dont realy feel like being ganked in a lowsec entry system)
c) they are the highest quality available that both feature a and b
with the current eve economics and stuffs moving lvl4 agents into lowsec is NOT the solution
thats just feeding lowsec gankers (not even propper pirates) a ton of easy kills till everybody gets borred and runs the highest quality lvl3 agents in safe highsec
if you want action in your precious lowsec to get some easy ganks begg ccp to introduce something interesting in lowsec
or missions with rewards of an exess of 50+mil (or probably more)
now to break up the highsec mission hubs your gona need q16 q18 lvl4 agents in highsec with no lowsec within 3 jumps
p.s. if you want to make the highsec in black rise interesting
put a few stations in astoh
put a bunch of agents in the stations including a lvl4 q16 agent or 2
and then up the asteroid belt count in the surounding systems (double it! )
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Rhinanna
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.05.30 15:27:00 -
[16]
In order for this to be done as you suggest you would also need to move the following to low-sec and make it not able to be done in stations:
Trading
Invention
Plexing
Manufacturing
All of these can make equal or greater ISK/hour as Lvl 4 missions, can be done in hi-sec with equal or lesser risk and equal or lesser skills.
Basically what you are saying is nerf Lvl 4 missions to WAY below that of the above professions for no real reason other than you want more soft targets to kill. Which wouldn't actually be the result, all that would really happen is the people who run Lvl 4s because they enjoy them would quit, people who just run Lvl 4s for ISK to finance their PvP would switch to one of the above occupations.
Fortunately CCP are sensible enough to ignore the whiners who don't have a logical argument.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.05.30 15:40:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Akita T on 30/05/2009 15:41:49
Originally by: Rhinanna
Trading,Invention,Plexing,Manufacturing
All of these can make equal or greater ISK/hour as Lvl 4 missions, can be done in hi-sec with equal or lesser risk and equal or lesser skills.
Completely and utterly incorrect.
Just because the risks are not OBVIOUS, and just because the potential risk levels are not always materialized, that doesn't mean the risks are not there.
All of those activities have a very strong PVP element, and as such they automatically balance themselves out amongst all participants.
In stark contrast, highsec mission-running has a negligible PVP element (suicide-gankers only affect the absurdly overpimped mission-boats, and ninja salvagers are more of a nuissance than a problem especially since you could get just about the same income level if you speed-run missions and ignore loot/salvage), and it lacks any effective form of relative balance against other activities or self-balance across securiy ratings (highsec having a huge advantage)... that is, if you don't consider "it lags so bad I can't run missions here", the only halfway effective negative feedback loop (guess what CCP just did - they made it less relevant).
EVE issues|Mining revamp|Build stuff|Make ISK |
Rhinanna
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.05.30 16:05:00 -
[18]
So basically you arguement is:
Dispite the fact its good for the game, I want it removed because I don't like PvE.....
As for the risks of invention/trading.... risks not materialising = low risk Same as the risk of getting your ship blown up in missions doesn't materialise often...
Got to love the way you think the risk factors apply to one element and not to another for no reason other than you need a decent argument and don't have one.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.05.30 16:26:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Akita T on 30/05/2009 16:26:07
Originally by: Rhinanna
So basically you arguement is: Dispite the fact its good for the game, I want it removed because I don't like PvE.....
Who said anything about removing anything ?
It's all about income levels.
Quote:
As for the risks of invention/trading.... risks not materialising = low risk Same as the risk of getting your ship blown up in missions doesn't materialise often...
The risk of invention is inventing at no gains (or even at a loss) because others do it with "stuff they get themselves for free" and therefore somehow think they make a profit when they don't. Or you get a price manipulation by a trader that wipes out all profitability. Or as a trader, you get out-manipulated by another trader... or so on and so forth.
EVE issues|Mining revamp|Build stuff|Make ISK |
KaarBaak
Minmatar
Squirrel Team
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Posted - 2009.05.30 16:26:00 -
[20]
I play hi-sec EVE while it's enjoyable. I will probably not play lowsec/nullsec EVE.
I fail to see how this concept (as it's explained over and over again in countless threads) does anything to encourage new players to EVE.
I see clearly how this will likely drive some players out of EVE.
I don't see how cutting the subscription base in order to please one demographic makes any sense whatsoever.
Talk about not addressing the base problem. As I understand it, you want more people to participate in PvP. Your solution is not to make PvP more fun. Your solution is to make PvE less fun than PvP and encourage/force players into low-sec.
I'm just telling you (again)...we won't go to low-sec. We'll just go...away.
KB
KB |
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.05.30 16:43:00 -
[21]
Originally by: KaarBaak
Talk about not addressing the base problem. As I understand it, you want more people to participate in PvP. Your solution is not to make PvP more fun. Your solution is to make PvE less fun than PvP and encourage/force players into low-sec.
The following answer is made assuming you WERE talking to me.
No, you didn't understand it. That's not what I said. Actually, it's the complete opposite.
The proposed solution is NOT to make PvE less fun, but to make riskier places MORE PROFITABLE.
The sacrosant lameness of highsec PvE would remain unaltered, precisely the way it is right now.
But if you WOULD bother to venture out of highsec due to the reports you hear about the wealth to be had there, you would soon find out that the rumours are true, and that not only can you make a living there, but you can make a better living than in highsec in spite of the risks.
And that was my proposed solution.
EVE issues|Mining revamp|Build stuff|Make ISK |
Kestrix
Gallente
0ccam's Razor Industries
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Posted - 2009.05.30 16:45:00 -
[22]
You don't get it, Hi sec lvl 4 missions mean (depending on the mission) that I can warp in set off my drones and go afk. It does not matter how much extra you offer me to use a low sec agent, low sec means I'm glued to the PC until the mission is over and I don't want that! So I'm quite happy the new agents are all in hi sec where they belong (not that I can use any of them anyway)
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Tractormech
Caldari
Fortune's Fools
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Posted - 2009.05.30 16:55:00 -
[23]
Akita is totally missing the point on why most people have a problem with this.
Adding more low sec l4s does nothing, theres already lots out there that don't get used.
The problem people have is, that CCP decided to reduce player grouping by just adding more l4s into the most crowded space in the game, while the problem areas the completely ignored.
In effect, they did nothing.
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Alex Raptos
Caldari
Phoenix Rising.
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Posted - 2009.05.30 16:57:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Kestrix
You don't get it, Hi sec lvl 4 missions mean (depending on the mission) that I can warp in set off my drones and go afk. It does not matter how much extra you offer me to use a low sec agent, low sec means I'm glued to the PC until the mission is over and I don't want that! So I'm quite happy the new agents are all in hi sec where they belong (not that I can use any of them anyway)
I don't get why people play games, to go afk and play another game.
Originally by: Dirk Magnum
I've become gay for Mark Harmon despite my initial reservations about the show NCIS but nobody will ever know
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Camaria
Caldari
State War Academy
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Posted - 2009.05.30 16:57:00 -
[25]
Akita: I agree with you in general (especially the part about buffing lowsec and not nerfing highsec that some posters seem to have missed...)
But there is one thing you forget. Not everybody runs missions because of isk or even standings. I do it because it is my favorite way to relax after coming home stressed out from work. My idea of relaxation is not to have my adrenaline pumping because of quality pvp (or being ganked based on your point of view)but to blow up small red crosses while admiring the scenerey. Yeah shoot me for being insane, but there are people who find mining fun as well...
If I ever need isk I just buy a plex, and even if I may be in a minority, there's enough of us that want to fly spaceships in an MMO without our hearts pounding that there will always be plenty of mission runners in highsec
That's why I like your idea, it rewards those that want to take risks, while it lets lazy cowards like me play the way we are used to 
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Alex Raptos
Caldari
Phoenix Rising.
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Posted - 2009.05.30 16:58:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Tractormech
Akita is totally missing the point on why most people have a problem with this.
Adding more low sec l4s does nothing, theres already lots out there that don't get used.
The problem people have is, that CCP decided to reduce player grouping by just adding more l4s into the most crowded space in the game, while the problem areas the completely ignored.
In effect, they did nothing.
Akita wants level fours to be left untouched, and for every other income system to be significantly more profitable.
What point is akita missing and why?
Originally by: Dirk Magnum
I've become gay for Mark Harmon despite my initial reservations about the show NCIS but nobody will ever know
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Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
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Posted - 2009.05.30 17:08:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Kestrix
You don't get it, Hi sec lvl 4 missions mean (depending on the mission) that I can warp in set off my drones and go afk. It does not matter how much extra you offer me to use a low sec agent, low sec means I'm glued to the PC until the mission is over and I don't want that! So I'm quite happy the new agents are all in hi sec where they belong (not that I can use any of them anyway)
Don't be absurd. We get that there are tons of people who want different things and some of them will never leave highsec. That is just fine. It just doesn't matter, since it is enough, that some players will find it worth doing. If everyone was attracted by the increased rewards, it would be a sign that the buff was too big. Buffing the rewards will just spread people more evenly. The more those rewards are increased the more people they will attract.
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Avon
Caldari
Black Nova Corp
KenZoku
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Posted - 2009.05.30 18:25:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Avon on 30/05/2009 18:25:48
Level 4 missions are not in themselves a real problem.
Nor is the value of the rewards they produce.
The problem is the nature of those rewards. The pure ISK rewards from bounties and a lesser extent mission pay & bonuses make up far too large a percentage of the total reward.
It is the "spawned" ISK that creates a problem to the economy. Of course some ISK needs to be spawned otherwise there would be shortage comming in to the economy making player trade impossible, however the volume of created ISK from missions is just far too high, especially considering the low risk of loss.
The ISK aspect of mission rewards should come from the agent, and the rest of the reward should comprise of things which players will trade, with market dynamics ultimately deciding the price of those items.
The trick, of course, is balancing all that.
It was tried before with the introduction of rogue drones, but that didn't really seem to hit the mark.
Maybe minerals aren't as much "fun" as other rewards could be.
Still, bottom line, reducing the ISK aspect of mission rewards would do a lot to "fix" them, and would probably lessen the calls for lvl4's to be thrown in low-sec.
It reduces inflationary pressure on the economy and pulls the mission runners out of their solo-play bubble (by requiring even a basic level of dependency on other players when selling their booty).
アニメ漫画です
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Stick Cult
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Posted - 2009.05.30 18:33:00 -
[29]
They're the same as the existing agents, just moved around. Its to reduce lag, I don't see a problem with it.
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Cerebus Alteri
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Posted - 2009.05.30 19:09:00 -
[30]
They should have done this a year or two ago when dod and other hubs if you undocked with 280+ people in local you run the real and very frequent risk of desynch and losing your ship and mods while your were in one spot and the server thought you were somewhere else getting shot at, unable to activate or do anything.
granted the need for speed after 8 months of fine tuning or so took some of the random excitement and frustration out of missions period. now all they need to do is start introducing sleeper ai into missions, since the lag is mostly gone and then you would have the risk to go along with your reward.
then maybe some of the incessent whining about risk vs reward garbage that is thrown at level 4s in hi sec would fade some. all for low sec missions getting a uber boost, but i think the ai in missions across the board needs to be redone, since you need a group to do missions in low sec since mission fittings are not ideal at all for pvp nevermind when you getting shot at, warp scrammed, by npc rats and low sec pirates decide to jump into the fun with their pvp fitted ships.
maybe low sec does in fact need instancing per say. if a jump gate was locked for the person/people actually running the mission they could do so in relative safety and would only have to worry about the trip to the mission area, undocking and back to station. it would make low sec missioning more attractive if you did not need to take a full force to provide security while your group actually did missions.
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