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Ebolak
Vengeance Asset Relocation Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.05.30 21:20:00 -
[1]
I would like to comment on a few threads that have popped up recently in the MD forums, and the possible effect these threads could have on the community.
My concern is directed toward a few threads that have been posted with the intent of testing investors abilities to recognize a scam, feeling out the waters as to how fast potential investors will jump on an investment bandwagon, or playing with investors of a current insturment to see how they react to it being a potential scam.
It has only taken these three recent threads to cause me to rethink my intentions of investing in the secondary market.
The first thread in question was started by a manager who was looking for expanded funding for his current IPO. When he didnt get the desired response to his request for more funding, he poceded to potentially destroy any credibity he had, and also call into question just how safe investments are even with an audit.
The second thread was a test to see if the worst possible IPO could still attract investors.
The third thread was made to see how much research investors are willing to put into an investment before investing.
This leads me to my point:
nullPeople that test the system, outside of a structured and sanctioned apparatus put in place to do so, will start to erode any feelings of trust that investors had in the system in the first place.null
Any thoughts?
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Krathos Morpheus
Gallente Legion Infernal Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.05.30 22:08:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Krathos Morpheus This market is dead the very second that the few individuals with enough trust and honesty to conduct an audit, conduct a business without audit or retain collateral lose their trustworthiness or their honesty. It is sad, but with the lack of in-game securities, all this market relies on a few individuals honesty. This kind of scams or pseudoscams only serve to worsen the rep of such people and creates more noise in MD. What we really need is another system. One system built with in-game securities, but until then this is all we have.
EVE Knowledge
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Dzil
Caldari Waffles Reloaded
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Posted - 2009.05.30 23:15:00 -
[3]
[conspiracy]Ebank's hidden 7th phase is to nuke public financing to force more investors and borrowers through its doors.[/conspiracy]
------------------------------ In EVE, when someone undercuts you, they're a lemming.
When you undercut someone else, it's skill/effort/manipulation.
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Professor Leech
Transmetropolitan
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Posted - 2009.05.30 23:34:00 -
[4]
Why do people think investments are safe?
An investment does not have to be a scam for it to lose isk and collapse. Your isk is at risk in every investment.
Originally by: Crawe DeRaven this thread is obviously going places
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Tesal
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Posted - 2009.05.31 03:44:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Ebolak Edited by: Ebolak on 30/05/2009 22:11:05 I would like to comment on a few threads that have popped up recently in the MD forums, and the possible effect these threads could have on the community.
My concern is directed toward a few threads that have been posted with the intent of testing investors abilities to recognize a scam, feeling out the waters as to how fast potential investors will jump on an investment bandwagon, or playing with investors of a current insturment to see how they react to it being a potential scam.
It has only taken these three recent threads to cause me to rethink my intentions of investing in the secondary market.
The first thread in question was started by a manager who was looking for expanded funding for his current IPO. When he didnt get the desired response to his request for more funding, he poceded to potentially destroy any credibity he had, and also call into question just how safe investments are even with an audit.
The second thread was a test to see if the worst possible IPO could still attract investors.
The third thread was made to see how much research investors are willing to put into an investment before investing.
This leads me to my point:
People that test the system, outside of a structured and sanctioned apparatus put in place to do so, will start to erode any feelings of trust that investors had in the system in the first place.
Any thoughts?
Edit: removed bad attemp at bolding
link the threads you speak of please.
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Brock Nelson
Caldari Flux Technologies Inc
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Posted - 2009.05.31 04:01:00 -
[6]
Some of them are still on the first page, do some reading
Blueprint Store |
Ji Sama
Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll
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Posted - 2009.05.31 08:48:00 -
[7]
well ebo, i think your right, it is undermining what little credibility the MD had left.
First Ricdic scams, then kazzac scam, all under the pretext of protecting the secondary market.. Dont find it funny and dont find it educational.. Perhaps its because they wherent aimed at me, dunno.. cba to know tbh..
Quote:
"Lecherito on Market Discussion: Though I have to go down on the record as saying that I'm convinced the majority of the MD community is ******ed" |
Companion Qube
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Posted - 2009.05.31 11:04:00 -
[8]
There's confidence in the secondary market? We even have a secondary market?
I have two criteria when I consider giving someone investment funding. A: is it a throwaway amount? Is it amusing to give them this money? Ok, if so, why not fund them? B: do I like/trust them and do they have some amount of business sense? Would I lend this person the keys to my car? If I can answer yes to either of these things, then I'll probably invest with or otherwise fund with them.
Right now the anonymous nature of EVE precludes any serious secondary market development. Anyone who thinks otherwise stands to lose a great deal of internetspaceship money while roleplaying an internetspaceship investment tycoon.
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Ricdics
Tleilex Developments Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.05.31 13:36:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Ji Sama First Ricdic scams, then kazzac scam, all under the pretext of protecting the secondary market.. Dont find it funny and dont find it educational.. Perhaps its because they wherent aimed at me, dunno.. cba to know tbh..
Do you understand the meaning of the word scam?
scam /skµm/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [skam] Show IPA noun, verb, scammed, scam⋅ming. ūnoun 1. a confidence game or other fraudulent scheme, esp. for making a quick profit; swindle. ūverb (used with object) 2. to cheat or defraud with a scam.
I can't say with certainty for Kazzac but with Yoko the intent was NEVER to scam. My belief is (had Kazzac gotten investment) he would have repaid the investors and probably scolded them for being so careless with their money.
Please stop lying about things Ji Sama, it's doing nothing for your reputation. |
Ray McCormack
hirr
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Posted - 2009.05.31 13:50:00 -
[10]
Yeah, c'mon guys, stop calling Ricdic a scammer. He was just trying to find out if you're all as stupid as he thinks you are.
| Auction Prowler |
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Ji Sama
Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll
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Posted - 2009.05.31 13:50:00 -
[11]
im surely not lying. just because your perception doesnt align with mine does not make me a liar.
that you didnt mean to take anyones isk does not depry the offering of the fact that it was a scam, or are you saying your offer was legit? what didnt i understand?
you said outright: it was all a joke.... oneoneeleven:lookatmeplzx:
Quote:
"Lecherito on Market Discussion: Though I have to go down on the record as saying that I'm convinced the majority of the MD community is ******ed" |
Ji Sama
Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll
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Posted - 2009.05.31 13:52:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Ray McCormack Yeah, c'mon guys, stop calling Ricdic a scammer. He was just trying to find out if you're all as stupid as he thinks you are.
im saying he is worth 10 if not 100 times more.. im sure he didnt do it for the isk. this wasnt about isk. but it was still a scam imo. im not calling him xabier scammer, but i am saying that "joking" around like that in the MD is imo on the same path as "scams" i do not think this is at all healthy for the MD community, having some of the MD Elites going rogue on the rest of us.
Quote:
"Lecherito on Market Discussion: Though I have to go down on the record as saying that I'm convinced the majority of the MD community is ******ed" |
eVaLF
Delivery Luck
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Posted - 2009.05.31 13:53:00 -
[13]
I think you all just scammed me out of time I will never get back reading this garbage just like I was scammed reading all the fake scam attempts.
Dang you scammers!!! -----
POS FUEL DELIVERY & HIGH & LOW SEC FREIGHTER SERVICES |
Ji Sama
Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll
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Posted - 2009.05.31 13:55:00 -
[14]
Originally by: eVaLF I think you all just scammed me out of time I will never get back reading this garbage just like I was scammed reading all the fake scam attempts.
Dang you scammers!!!
haha :D well timed stress releasing humour ftw!
Quote:
"Lecherito on Market Discussion: Though I have to go down on the record as saying that I'm convinced the majority of the MD community is ******ed" |
glas mir
Reaction Scientific
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Posted - 2009.05.31 14:19:00 -
[15]
Originally by: eVaLF I think you all just scammed me out of time I will never get back reading this garbage just like I was scammed reading all the fake scam attempts.
Dang you scammers!!!
I agree, Dang you scammers!!!
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cosmoray
Cosmoray Construction
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Posted - 2009.05.31 15:21:00 -
[16]
I don't think the 'pretend scam' or 'social experiment' has really helped the secondary market (what's left of it).
The secondary market IMO is in a pretty poor state.
Secondary Market Facts (my opinion):
1. There IS investment capital available 2. Lack of quality offerings 3. Returns will come down over time 4. New offerings will have to have audit/checks completed to get their cash 5. Some (respescted) auditors will need to provide some 'minimal' (skill and assets check) audits for free to support the market. 6. Some new auditors are needed (not just new players, but people who have posting history).
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Ricdics
Tleilex Developments Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.05.31 15:46:00 -
[17]
This is getting old. I am starting to get bored, lets end this topic and close the thread. |
Sol Mag'Ar
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Posted - 2009.05.31 17:28:00 -
[18]
I see no reason for this thread to be closed. Eroded confidence in the secondary market is a major concern, especially if you're a person who claims to want to advance it.
There is a large amount of trust given to those who run IPO/Bond offerings when their investment opportunities actually get funded.
These "fake scam" offerings have been extremely counterproductive for all of us who want the secondary market to push forward and become a bigger part of Eve. The sheer arrogancy of those who decided that it fell on their head to "test the playerbase" is absolutely astounding. How is it any different than Armoured C's scam when he did it for "a friend writing a college paper" than to do it "as a social experiment"?
Oh, I see why now. It's because some people are "too big to scam".
Now, addressing the intent of these "fake scams". Sure, you wanted to educate people by showing them how easily they can be parted with their isk. However, this right/responsibility does not fall onto anyone but the person trying to invest. If they lose their isk, then it's lesson learned and they will do better next time. What they don't need is a respected member of MD trying to chastise them for their irresponsibility.
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Breaker77
Reclamation Industries New Eden Research
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Posted - 2009.05.31 18:01:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Sol Mag'Ar These "fake scam" offerings have been extremely counterproductive for all of us who want the secondary market to push forward and become a bigger part of Eve.
Indeed. Just about the only way to get public investment is to have most, if not all, or the established and respected members agree that it will work. However some of that respect/trust has been lost with the recent posts.
Quote: Sure, you wanted to educate people by showing them how easily they can be parted with their isk. However, this right/responsibility does not fall onto anyone but the person trying to invest.
Bolded the important part there. I don't see anyone in MD offering support or reimbursement when someone loses a faction fitted CNR. Why should investing be any different??
Don't get me wrong now. People should be openly questioning bond/IPO offerings to point out negatives, however no one has the ability to control what anyone else wants to do with their ISK.
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Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.05.31 19:06:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Ricdics
Originally by: Ji Sama First Ricdic scams, then kazzac scam, all under the pretext of protecting the secondary market.. Dont find it funny and dont find it educational.. Perhaps its because they wherent aimed at me, dunno.. cba to know tbh..
Do you understand the meaning of the word scam?
scam /skµm/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [skam] Show IPA noun, verb, scammed, scam⋅ming. ūnoun 1. a confidence game or other fraudulent scheme, esp. for making a quick profit; swindle. ūverb (used with object) 2. to cheat or defraud with a scam.
I can't say with certainty for Kazzac but with Yoko the intent was NEVER to scam. My belief is (had Kazzac gotten investment) he would have repaid the investors and probably scolded them for being so careless with their money.
Please stop lying about things Ji Sama, it's doing nothing for your reputation.
More or less, after the obvious joke with yours I figured I'd actually get one as a serious attempt.
I'm both happy and glad by the reception it received. Happy that no one reserved anything outside of four people offering to invest up to half of it.
Angry at the reception to someone who had a solid business plan, was not asking for that much capital, provided reasoned debate behind his requests, offered collateral and was still rebuffed except for one person (props to Bad Bobby), and also offered to scale the plan back so that it was 100% with collateral.
Also angry that no one even bothered to look at something as simple as a posting history which spanned no more than 8 posts, all in MD and a few in CnP.
Whats wrong with the secondary market if you ask me?
The angry unrelenting tone of investors and the culture here. |
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Ebolak
Vengeance Asset Relocation Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.05.31 19:19:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Ebolak on 31/05/2009 19:21:11
Originally by: Ricdics This is getting old. I am starting to get bored, lets end this topic and close the thread.
Ricdics, I did not start this thread to amuse you, so your apparent boredom with the topic will not suffice to have it closed.
I find it telling that the market "gurus" that have helped perpetuate this lack of confidence in the secondary market are so far removed from the common man, that they cannot understand that thier "experiments" did not have the desired effect when completed.
You can only cry wolf so many times before there is no response, and in my opinion it wont take to many more of these, joke scam and fake scam threads to completely sour new investors with new cash from investing in the secondary market.
I propose that a better way of teaching people to be careful with thier money and not get scammed is to make sure that in every new offering, someone posts a link to a thread like Cosmorays explaining what to look for in a scam.
There should also be a sticky in the market resourse thread, that explains what to look for in a scam and what kind of precautions an investor can take to protect himself. This link would also be placed in response to every new offering.
I feel these suggestions would be far more productive for the secondary market, than a littany of "testing peoples stupididty" threads.
Edit: spelling
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Ebolak
Vengeance Asset Relocation Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.05.31 19:40:00 -
[22]
Whats wrong with the secondary market if you ask me?
The angry unrelenting tone of investors and the culture here.
Kazzac, like it or not, you are in a position of responsiblity here, and from what Ive been able to gather over a period of five months or so, is that you are considered one of the market "gurus".
Members of this forum look to you and others for sound well thought out advice and guidance. In short, you are part of the culture here and help define it more so than many.
How will you respond, when I take up the flag of science and education, and post a fake scam thread every so often?
Are you so set in your ways, that you cant understand that some of us have a problem with the way you tried to deliver a message? We understand the message, we dont agree that the way it was delivered is good for the secondary market.
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Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.05.31 19:47:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Ebolak
Whats wrong with the secondary market if you ask me?
The angry unrelenting tone of investors and the culture here.
Kazzac, like it or not, you are in a position of responsiblity here, and from what Ive been able to gather over a period of five months or so, is that you are considered one of the market "gurus".
Members of this forum look to you and others for sound well thought out advice and guidance. In short, you are part of the culture here and help define it more so than many.
How will you respond, when I take up the flag of science and education, and post a fake scam thread every so often?
Are you so set in your ways, that you cant understand that some of us have a problem with the way you tried to deliver a message? We understand the message, we dont agree that the way it was delivered is good for the secondary market.
So be it then.
So how do we raise confidence? Calling a well thought out reasoned business plan, that answers questions and offered collateral a scam and immediately writing it off certainly doesn't help.
Your 720's are going to happen, they have happened and they will always continue to happen.
Again, some leeway has to be given and people need to start doing more legwork than they have been. |
Bloody Rabbit
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Posted - 2009.05.31 21:22:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Ray McCormack Yeah, c'mon guys, stop calling Ricdic a scammer. He was just trying to find out if you're all as stupid as he thinks you are.
This goes for both threads
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GinGingle
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Posted - 2009.06.01 00:47:00 -
[25]
I'll share a tale.
A long while back, in my days of WOW, I was in a guild that was stuck in Karazhan. For background's sake, lets just say this is a pretty subpar place to get stuck. I had happened to be offered an officership in said guild, and thus attended my first and last officer meeting.
Before the meeting had even begun, the bickering was started. Blame being doled out for bad attendance, class mix, gear, role imbalance. My first inclination was to propose new alternatives: open up to include a few outsiders, different raid times, etc. Whether these were shot down because I was the new guy, or because they were convinced they were doing it right despite failure after failure; I don't know. I then took a step back and asked what was really important to them. This question stunned their leadership, and they never could answer it.
They instead came out of that meeting determined that their failure was due to druids making off with too much of the loot, so they were going to start destroying it instead.
@Ricdic, Kazzac, and 720: I think you all have a sense that the health of the secondary markets is falling. If its still important to you, I hope that you see that faking or completing scams isn't doing a thing to create the machinery needed for a functional investment system.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Dark-Rising
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Posted - 2009.06.01 01:03:00 -
[26]
Quote:
They instead came out of that meeting determined that their failure was due to druids making off with too much of the loot, so they were going to start destroying it instead.
How typical, it was really a crappy guild. I was a feral druid, who tanked the whole vanilla WoW up to the first 3 bosses in Naxx, whole TBC and quit when I discovered WoTLK was a joke where I could tank a level 76 instance at 70.
For references search for "Sahrokh".
Quote:
5. Some (respescted) auditors will need to provide some 'minimal' (skill and assets check) audits for free to support the market. 6. Some new auditors are needed (not just new players, but people who have posting history).
I tried tasting the waters to later open an IPO and got called scammer before I even made it. I offered to audit a guy for free and got told I am unknown and possibly the guy's alt.
Maybe MD is in bad shape, but it's really asking for it. All it remains is a bunch of hysterical and rude witches ready to wail on anything new and diverse, hypocrite enough not to see that the past errors were only to blame on their short-sigthness.
Also, the various "fake scams" were a Darwin check. A working system does not fall to dust because of a pair of jokes.
Just look at how EvE is robust enough to have survived an inhumane POS exploit for years with bearable consequences.
If MD loses confidence for 2 fakes, it's because MD had no confidence before nor has shoulders strong enough to do its service.
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Ricdics
Tleilex Developments Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.06.01 10:47:00 -
[27]
Ok, thread safe to close Mitnal.
Cheers mate. |
Lui Kai
Better Than You
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Posted - 2009.06.01 12:33:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Lui Kai on 01/06/2009 12:34:05
Originally by: GinGingle
]@Ricdic, Kazzac, and 720[/u]: I think you all have a sense that the health of the secondary markets is falling. If its still important to you, I hope that you see that faking or completing scams isn't doing a thing to create the machinery needed for a functional investment system.
You make the mistaken assumption that any of the above feel any responsibility for the secondary market, or the community built around it.
I don't know any of the three, but Ric (as demonstrated here and elsewhere) just comes off as an attention-whoring child. If the focus of attention isn't on him, he either pulls some assinine publicity stunt or starts in with the ad-hominim attacks and thread derailing nonsense.
720's thread was very little more than a painfully transparent attempt at trying to make people terrified of anything lacking a "known" auditor.
I'll grant, Kaz seems to mean well, albeit in a condescending way. He does raise real points with his posts, however, which is more than can be said of the other two. ----------------
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LarcatOfRens
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Posted - 2009.06.01 18:17:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Ricdics This is getting old. I am starting to get bored, lets end this topic and close the thread.
----------
Ok, thread safe to close Mitnal.
Cheers mate.
Are you trolling (which from your fake-scam thread you seem to have a penchant for), or are you acting like a douche accidentally? Is this really how you like to represent EBank on the forums?
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Lecherito
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Posted - 2009.06.01 18:34:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Lecherito on 01/06/2009 18:34:56
Quote:
I don't know any of the three, but Ric (as demonstrated here and elsewhere) just comes off as an attention-whoring child. If the focus of attention isn't on him, he either pulls some assinine publicity stunt or starts in with the ad-hominim attacks and thread derailing nonsense.
This is one of the most accurate observations I've seen in a long time. What would happen, dare I ask, if someone who was not Ricdic, Kaz, or any of the other oligarchical elite were to post an ADHD "fake scam" like Ricdic's? They would be run out of the MD forum and any potential credibility shattered. They are some of the more prominent naysayers of the MD forum, yet when push comes to shove, it is disturbingly apparent that they need not adhere to the standard to which the rest of us must?
Some food for thought: There is no secondary market in EvE. There is no infrastructure for such a thing to grow and evolve on its own, as would be the ideal. Instead, we have a group of individuals who are heralded as divine, as the rulers of a kingdom. What are they really? Dewds. Dewds who have been around longer than the other dewds, and for that reason, they are given an offensive amount of power, to be wielded without a system of checks and balances. As long as we continue to conform to the rules of their playground, nothing will change, the elite will remain few in number, and the "secondary market" will continue to be nothing more than a fool's hope.
-L
Just curious, what business does Ricidic have demanding the closure of a thread which was created, in large part, to his own tard actions?
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