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Hourly Crash

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
Easthir Ravin	Posted - 2009.06.06 07:38:00 - [1] Client Crashes every hour on the hour from time I log in. Here is the error message I get. { Unhandled page fault on read access to 0x00000008 at address 0x90110fc0. Do you wish to debug it ? } Some times I debug some times I just press on and re-boot client. Neither seem to affect the hourly crash. Any suggestions?
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre	Posted - 2009.06.06 15:04:00 - [2] Might help if you post the system specs and other important information. Which mac os-x are you running? Which mac period? How much RAM? What are you running for graphics settings? Are you running more than one client? Are you running anything in the background on top of the EVE Client(s)?
Easthir Ravin	Posted - 2009.06.07 04:45:00 - [3] Here are the specs: Hardware Overview: Model Name:iMac Model Identifier:iMac8,1 Processor Name:Intel Core 2 Duo Processor Speed:3.06 GHz Number Of Processors:1 Total Number Of Cores:2 L2 Cache:6 MB Memory:2 GB Bus Speed:1.07 GHz Boot ROM Version:IM81.00C1.B00 SMC Version (system):1.30f1 Serial Number (system):QP8200J00KM NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GS: Chipset Model:NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GS Type:Display Bus:PCIe PCIe Lane Width:x16 VRAM (Total):512 MB Vendor:NVIDIA (0x10de) Device ID:0x0609 Revision ID:0x00a2 ROM Revision:3234 Displays: iMac: Resolution:1920 x 1200 Depth:32-Bit Color Core Image:Hardware Accelerated Main Display:Yes Mirror:Off Online:Yes Quartz Extreme:Supported Built-In:Yes Display Connector: Status:No Display Connected
Easthir Ravin	Posted - 2009.06.07 04:47:00 - [4] Are you running more than one client? No Are you running anything in the background on top of the EVE Client(s)? No
Conscript A23J784	Posted - 2009.06.07 05:21:00 - [5] Are you running Time Machine by any chance, and if you are, try turning it off for a while. I get the exact same crash, and a perusal of the logs indicate that all of the crashes occur just after Time Machine unmounts it's volume. Try it and see what happens for a while.
Easthir Ravin	Posted - 2009.06.07 21:49:00 - [6] Edited by: Easthir Ravin on 07/06/2009 21:49:27 Thanks mate that was it! I am back in business
Ami Nia Caldari	Posted - 2009.06.07 22:19:00 - [7] Very interesting. I never noticed this problem with Time Machine. Are you using it with a directly attached drive? Internal, USB or FW? Or is it a networked drive (probably so, since you say something about the drive being unmounted). Did you bug report this? I'm sure TG would like to know it (unless they already know). You may try to generate a debuglog and then force the problem with a time machine "backup now". Please, spend 1 minute of your time and check this out
Conscript A23J784	Posted - 2009.06.07 23:19:00 - [8] I'm using a Time Capsule connected via Cat 6 ethernet. I've already filed a bug report with Apple regarding this. Needles to say, I've been pulling my hair out over this one for the last few months. Almost bald now
Pak Seongsu Gallente Hikage Corporation Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2009.06.08 00:53:00 - [9] You may want to file a bug report with CCP under Mac category. TG (Transgaming) will probably be interested. Best if you can also provide the debuglog as explained in the stiky/knowledgebase. HKG recluta piloti Italiani -V- is looking for PvP Corps
Conscript A23J784	Posted - 2009.06.08 03:21:00 - [10] Already done.

Fairhand Core Research Expedition C. O. R. E.	Posted - 2009.06.08 09:19:00 - [11] For what it is worth, I am using a LaCie Firewire800 external drive on my iMac and it works as expected with no interruption of Eve.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre	Posted - 2009.06.08 14:36:00 - [12] It might have something to do withe Time Machine accessing core files of the game while in operation.... not necessarily time machine itself. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com ========================= Dependable, Honorable, Intelligent, No-nonsense Vote Herschel Yamamoto for CSM!
Ami Nia Caldari	Posted - 2009.06.08 14:53:00 - [13] Originally by: Drake Draconis It might have something to do withe Time Machine accessing core files of the game while in operation.... not necessarily time machine itself. I think not. The problem is reported to happen when time machine unmounts the disk (hourly, after it's done backupping). If it had to do with it accessing the files - it would happen during the time machine operation, not at the end - it would happen for both directly attached storage and networked storage, not only for networked storage - It would most likely be a problem with time machine and affect other programs too Instead: - it seems to happen when time machine unmounts the volume - it seems to only affect time machine volumes on networked storage - it may be a problem with Cider and not one with Time Machine (but this is somethin TG has to confirm/deny).
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre	Posted - 2009.06.08 16:14:00 - [14] Originally by: Ami Nia Originally by: Drake Draconis It might have something to do withe Time Machine accessing core files of the game while in operation.... not necessarily time machine itself. I think not. The problem is reported to happen when time machine unmounts the disk (hourly, after it's done backupping). If it had to do with it accessing the files - it would happen during the time machine operation, not at the end - it would happen for both directly attached storage and networked storage, not only for networked storage - It would most likely be a problem with time machine and affect other programs too Instead: - it seems to happen when time machine unmounts the volume - it seems to only affect time machine volumes on networked storage - it may be a problem with Cider and not one with Time Machine (but this is somethin TG has to confirm/deny). Unfortinately such a conclusion is utterly ridiculous due to the implications alone.... Unless CIDER/WINE/EVE Online is interfacing with some aspect of the system that requires a constant checking or use of a drive that it does not currently occupy...which is utterly insane in itself...as the game only needs access to its current drive... so why the hell else would it be dinkin around elsewhere? Time Machine is operating in its private little world... the only time it interfaces with anything to do with the above... is when its snapshotting a change in the files that EVE Uses (Along with Cider) I seriously doubt unmounting directly affects the game as its not unmounting the main drive or anything the game needs to function.. as to why its causing a crash is not the question... more like why the hell would it have anything to do with the game is the question I would ask. The appearance of such an occasion being the cause is a coincidence. That is my professional opinion with what I know of Time Machine... not an educated guess. Time machine's sole purpose in life is to auto-mount a drive... back things up.. and unmount said drive (if needed) and walk away... for the game to crash during that phase should only have to do with files it attempts to backup... not when it shuts down the operation... there shouldn't be any shared resources or conflicts... such a thing would imply EVE starts acquiring use of said drive when mounted... for what reason would it do this? If the game is being affected adversely by the unmounting of drives... then they are doing things that they should not be doing... and should have it fixed immediately. They have no business fraking around with things that have no relationship with the game itself. Course bearing in mind that the game is a windows coded-messiness of code and it may be doing windowsy things that would likely be the cause. I would be quick to blame CIDER/TG/EVE not Time Machine... And this isn't implying that Time Machine is perfect... but I do know that Time Machine is very likely not the cause... just the symptom/side affect of the true cause.

TG Maladara	Posted - 2009.06.10 18:09:00 - [15] We're looking into this now. Thus far in limited testing we haven't been able to repro the issue with just Time Machine, but that was with a limited size backup (just EVE and the user folder). The problem could well be a Time Capsule only issue. Has anyone not using Time Capsule seen anything like this happen? The crash address is in Apple's LaunchServices library, which we don't use directly. The bug that was logged is a bit short on detail; can you put your console.log up somewhere (or attach it to the bug if you still can)?

Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre	Posted - 2009.06.10 21:19:00 - [16] Originally by: TG Maladara We're looking into this now. Thus far in limited testing we haven't been able to repro the issue with just Time Machine, but that was with a limited size backup (just EVE and the user folder). The problem could well be a Time Capsule only issue. Has anyone not using Time Capsule seen anything like this happen? The crash address is in Apple's LaunchServices library, which we don't use directly. The bug that was logged is a bit short on detail; can you put your console.log up somewhere (or attach it to the bug if you still can)? AFAIK a Time Capsule is just a NAS at best.... and the only reason it would even remotely cause a crash is if EVE/Cider requires access to said resource or something gets criss crossed. All the above should not even be remotely related at best! The only time Time Machine and EVE should ever cross is when Time Machine snapshots the EVE Files/Cider Files. That's where it stops... this crash has got to be caused by something else. IF I had to make an educated guess.. and this is a big IF.... I would say its likely to do with the Network Connection. As Time Capsule uses the network connection heavily during a major backup. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com ========================= Dependable, Honorable, Intelligent, No-nonsense Vote Herschel Yamamoto for CSM!
Ami Nia Caldari	Posted - 2009.06.10 22:05:00 - [17] Edited by: Ami Nia on 10/06/2009 22:08:58 Originally by: TG Maladara We're looking into this now. Thus far in limited testing we haven't been able to repro the issue with just Time Machine, but that was with a limited size backup (just EVE and the user folder). The problem could well be a Time Capsule only issue. Has anyone not using Time Capsule seen anything like this happen? The crash address is in Apple's LaunchServices library, which we don't use directly. The bug that was logged is a bit short on detail; can you put your console.log up somewhere (or attach it to the bug if you still can)? I have not yet tried to repro and have not experienced this myself. But based on the information posted in this thread it seems to be a problem affecting people that are using time capsule and not those using directly attached storage. However the main difference between time machine backups on a time capsule and those on a directly attached disk is that the time capsule volume is seen as a networked volume and time machine works differently when it creates a backup on networked volumes: it creates a disk image and then mounts the file system in it through the unix loopback device facility. This completely sidesteps a lot of problems related to the differences between the direct file system access apis and the several possible remote file system access apis. It also becomes irrelevant whether the remote file system is hfs+, ext2, ntfs or whatever. If you do not have a time capsule, I'd suggest you give it a try to repro by creating a time machine backup over a network mounted drive (note: you must CREATE it over the network. Creating the backup on locally attached storage and then moving the disk over to another machine and mount it remotely, would not work). I may try to confirm this speculation myself later this week, if I can find the time to (cannot do it here at home as I have only my portable here). Please, spend 1 minute of your time and check this out
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre	Posted - 2009.06.10 22:19:00 - [18] Originally by: Ami Nia Edited by: Ami Nia on 10/06/2009 22:08:58 Originally by: TG Maladara We're looking into this now. Thus far in limited testing we haven't been able to repro the issue with just Time Machine, but that was with a limited size backup (just EVE and the user folder). The problem could well be a Time Capsule only issue. Has anyone not using Time Capsule seen anything like this happen? The crash address is in Apple's LaunchServices library, which we don't use directly. The bug that was logged is a bit short on detail; can you put your console.log up somewhere (or attach it to the bug if you still can)? I have not yet tried to repro and have not experienced this myself. But based on the information posted in this thread it seems to be a problem affecting people that are using time capsule and not those using directly attached storage. However the main difference between time machine backups on a time capsule and those on a directly attached disk is that the time capsule volume is seen as a networked volume and time machine works differently when it creates a backup on networked volumes: it creates a disk image and then mounts the file system in it through the unix loopback device facility. This completely sidesteps a lot of problems related to the differences between the direct file system access apis and the several possible remote file system access apis. It also becomes irrelevant whether the remote file system is hfs+, ext2, ntfs or whatever. If you do not have a time capsule, I'd suggest you give it a try to repro by creating a time machine backup over a network mounted drive (note: you must CREATE it over the network. Creating the backup on locally attached storage and then moving the disk over to another machine and mount it remotely, would not work). I may try to confirm this speculation myself later this week, if I can find the time to (cannot do it here at home as I have only my portable here). Pretty much it.... if you don't have a NAS... suggest sharing a HD from an another computer... Might want to make sure its partitioned and isolated from the main OS on said computer if needed... not sure how Time Machine handles sharing itself with others... as Time Machine typically takes possession of the whole volume as far as the clients perspective is concerned. On X-Servers its a little different... essentially its just a shared folder that appears as a Volumne/Hard Drive to clients.
Ami Nia Caldari	Posted - 2009.06.11 00:01:00 - [19] Originally by: Drake Draconis Pretty much it.... if you don't have a NAS... suggest sharing a HD from an another computer... Well, I did not specify that, but I guess TG could figure it out themselves that disks can be shared without a NAS ;) Originally by: Drake Draconis Might want to make sure its partitioned and isolated from the main OS on said computer if needed... It is not needed at all. But sure you want it to have plenty of free space. And it may be a good idea to have an empty share (that is the remotely mounted volume should appear empty) even if this is also not strictly required. Originally by: Drake Draconis not sure how Time Machine handles sharing itself with others... as Time Machine typically takes possession of the whole volume as far as the clients perspective is concerned. No it doesn't. But it's a good idea to dedicate the volume to time machine operations as it WILL fill it up (it does not delete stuff until the volume is full). Originally by: Drake Draconis On X-Servers its a little different... essentially its just a shared folder that appears as a Volumne/Hard Drive to clients. Nothing different. A share point is generally a directory on the actual disc that hosts it. This is the same on OsX, Linux, Windows or whatever.

TG Maladara	Posted - 2009.06.11 02:19:00 - [20] Tracked it down after purchasing a Time Capsule and working with Apple folks at WWDC. The issue is that the Time Capsule does an AFP network mount. We use Apple's Disk Arbitration framework to track when disks appear/disappear so that we can dynamically add/remove CD drives for apps that need to do direct disk access. On first inspection it appeared that the Apple API was passing us a bad disk reference when the network drive was unmounted, and Apple asked us to log a bug on it to them. When logging the bug, some further inspection showed that it was only missing a BSD volume label, which is considered OK by Apple, but we had not expected this and allowed a NULL pointer to make it's way into places that it should never go. If you also had a CD in the drive at the same time, this would cause a crash. Our initial fix appears to solve the problem, so it will go into our code review process shortly. In the meantime, you should be able to avoid the issue if you have your system automount the Time Capsule drive on startup. That should prevent Time Machine from unmounting the backup volume which is the source of the problem. For instructions on that, see the Apple Discussion Forums.


Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre	Posted - 2009.06.11 05:16:00 - [21] Originally by: TG Maladara Tracked it down after purchasing a Time Capsule and working with Apple folks at WWDC. The issue is that the Time Capsule does an AFP network mount. We use Apple's Disk Arbitration framework to track when disks appear/disappear so that we can dynamically add/remove CD drives for apps that need to do direct disk access. On first inspection it appeared that the Apple API was passing us a bad disk reference when the network drive was unmounted, and Apple asked us to log a bug on it to them. When logging the bug, some further inspection showed that it was only missing a BSD volume label, which is considered OK by Apple, but we had not expected this and allowed a NULL pointer to make it's way into places that it should never go. If you also had a CD in the drive at the same time, this would cause a crash. Our initial fix appears to solve the problem, so it will go into our code review process shortly. In the meantime, you should be able to avoid the issue if you have your system automount the Time Capsule drive on startup. That should prevent Time Machine from unmounting the backup volume which is the source of the problem. For instructions on that, see the Apple Discussion Forums. Told yah.... Time Machine is a coincidental indicator.... I gotta ask tho... why would you be constantly checking for a CD drive let alone any volumes? The Game is localized to the Hard Drive.... The only time you would ever need an optical drive is to install the game.... this is perplexing. (Scratches head). Unless your engine is multi-adaptable... in this case its not specifically for EVE Online... it would be for other games that do in-fact require a CD Drive perhaps? Either way... good work TG... nice to see to on-the-spot work. /me salutes
Ami Nia Caldari	Posted - 2009.06.11 12:45:00 - [22] Originally by: Drake Draconis Originally by: TG Maladara We use Apple's Disk Arbitration framework to track when disks appear/disappear so that we can dynamically add/remove CD drives for apps that need to do direct disk access. I gotta ask tho... why would you be constantly checking for a CD drive let alone any volumes? The Game is localized to the Hard Drive.... The only time you would ever need an optical drive is to install the game.... this is perplexing. (Scratches head). The answer is in TG post as quoted. They do not constantly check for a CD. They do receive the Disk Arbitration notifications. Originally by: Drake Draconis Unless your engine is multi-adaptable... in this case its not specifically for EVE Online... it would be for other games that do in-fact require a CD Drive perhaps? Exactly. What made you think TG it was a CCP subsidiary? It's not. Please, spend 1 minute of your time and check this out
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre	Posted - 2009.06.11 14:33:00 - [23] Originally by: Ami Nia Originally by: Drake Draconis Originally by: TG Maladara We use Apple's Disk Arbitration framework to track when disks appear/disappear so that we can dynamically add/remove CD drives for apps that need to do direct disk access. I gotta ask tho... why would you be constantly checking for a CD drive let alone any volumes? The Game is localized to the Hard Drive.... The only time you would ever need an optical drive is to install the game.... this is perplexing. (Scratches head). The answer is in TG post as quoted. They do not constantly check for a CD. They do receive the Disk Arbitration notifications. Originally by: Drake Draconis Unless your engine is multi-adaptable... in this case its not specifically for EVE Online... it would be for other games that do in-fact require a CD Drive perhaps? Exactly. What made you think TG it was a CCP subsidiary? It's not. Did I say TG was a subsidiary of CCP? Did I say TG is a subdivision of CCP? You need more Coffee... go back and reread my post. I was under the impression that the engine was specifically crafted for EVE Online... hence the disk detection being useless for a game such as this.
Ami Nia Caldari	Posted - 2009.06.11 15:58:00 - [24] Originally by: Drake Draconis Where did I say that TG Was a subsidary???? Ok, let's forget humor. What made you think the only customer for TG Cider was CCP?
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre	Posted - 2009.06.11 17:05:00 - [25] Originally by: Ami Nia Originally by: Drake Draconis Where did I say that TG Was a subsidary???? Ok, let's forget humor. What made you think the only customer for TG Cider was CCP? What made you think I was talking about that? last I checked I was asking whether this version of CIDER is specially made for EVE Online and not the other products TG works on. So I have no idea where your getting THAT from.


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