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microsoft looking to fit 300k people on one server

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Spurty Caldari Ore Mongers BricK sQuAD.	Posted - 2009.06.06 10:04:00 - [1] After the shell shock of a nasty diaper change this morning at 5am, I thought I'd blow the memory away with an hour playing 'catchup' on the gaming scene. Discovered this entry: http://www.developmag.com/news/31970/Microsoft-trying-to-develop-300000-player-online-game Curious! Originally by: Cat o'Ninetails hi cat here i was thinking earlier about corpses...
Tzar'rim	Posted - 2009.06.06 10:07:00 - [2] There's a difference between saying "ooooh I want to have 70 bilionty 11 quadruple MILLION people!!!!oneonelevencomeagain". And actually doing it. Self-proclaimed idiot
Estel Arador Minmatar Estel Arador Corp Services	Posted - 2009.06.06 10:09:00 - [3] "only ever had over 50,000 playing in real-time at once" Like it's nothing... FREE! jumpclone service - Now 410 locations!
TigerXtrm Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.06.06 10:11:00 - [4] Originally by: Estel Arador "only ever had over 50,000 playing in real-time at once" Like it's nothing... Yeah I doubt any other MMO server even got close to that =/
Grek Forto Malevolent Intentions	Posted - 2009.06.06 10:13:00 - [5] Originally by: TigerXtrm Originally by: Estel Arador "only ever had over 50,000 playing in real-time at once" Like it's nothing... Yeah I doubt any other MMO server even got close to that =/ On a single server... Grek Forto Yarring Blog
Verite Rendition Caldari F.R.E.E. Explorer Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.06.06 10:25:00 - [6] Originally by: Grek Forto Originally by: TigerXtrm Originally by: Estel Arador "only ever had over 50,000 playing in real-time at once" Like it's nothing... Yeah I doubt any other MMO server even got close to that =/ On a single server... Bear in mind that EVE isn't run on a single server, it's a single shard. There's a very important difference here. That shard is composed of many servers, which distributes the load. The most impressive metrics are how many people are playing on a single reinforced node, and the total population in relation to the DB server. ---- FREE Explorer Lead Megalomanic EVE Null-Sec Player Influence Map http://dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/Veritefw/FWinf
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.06.06 10:45:00 - [7] Edited by: MotherMoon on 06/06/2009 10:47:31 Originally by: Verite Rendition Originally by: Grek Forto Originally by: TigerXtrm Originally by: Estel Arador "only ever had over 50,000 playing in real-time at once" Like it's nothing... Yeah I doubt any other MMO server even got close to that =/ On a single server... Bear in mind that EVE isn't run on a single server, it's a single shard. There's a very important difference here. That shard is composed of many servers, which distributes the load. The most impressive metrics are how many people are playing on a single reinforced node, and the total population in relation to the DB server. SMACKS HEAD INTO DESK while you are right in your own way, I feel as if the word server gets throw around FAR too offen. a "server" is ALWAYS made out of multiple motherboards. eve has one server. It is the cluster on which the server lies. For instance, I have a quad core cpu. does that mean i really have 4 cpus? maybe techinly it does, but it counts as ONE cpu with FOUR cores. eve is ONE server, with 100's of nodes. and microsofts 300,000 server will also be stakcs and stacks of motherboards each with thier own rama nd such. just like ANY super computer. hell, each wow shard is run on 10-20 servers. each node can handle about 300-400 people in wow, with 5000 people on each shard. But honestly the ***rd shard is wrong. That is from back in the day when you had to shard one motherboard to run muliple game world. We just don't work that way anymore.
Spurty Caldari Ore Mongers BricK sQuAD.	Posted - 2009.06.06 11:13:00 - [8] Edited by: Spurty on 06/06/2009 11:14:11 MotherMoon's frustration with people's layman understanding of 'servers' is warranted. There are finite limits on concurrent user connections per MACHINE that are, for all practical purposes of reasonable response time, around the 500 to 1000 mark. It gets laggy quick with just ssh sessions around the 250 mark, but thats comparing apples and oranges as an EVE user really just sends and receives data during the session, they can't start up random jobs. When you get a bit into it all (creating systems designed to work in realtime with thousands of concurrent users), you start to appreciate the tech CCP has for making EVE run. I work for a company that sells databases that have high availability via clustering and having configured and tested it, my appreciation is part awe and part "thank god I'm not responsibly for maintaining it" :P edit to change word server for machine
Dr Slaughter Minmatar Rabies Inc.	Posted - 2009.06.06 18:36:00 - [9] Edited by: Dr Slaughter on 06/06/2009 18:39:59 servers, machine, cluster, shard. yatta yatta Personally I'm not that impressed they've got a SQL cluster with a RAMSAN and some clever caching. end of the day, how many other players are in a GRID at the same time? Can we just use that as a measurement unit for success? I would also LOVE to see algorithms / graphs for: 'Average time to process next player command vs players loaded' 'Average time to load grid vs players already loaded' 'Average time to move a players state data from node a to node b based on players already on a & b' etc. Seeing how efficient their code is at doing stuff like that might be more impressive than saying we have 50k users concurrently on-line. J1V1 was when I gave up on fleet battles and I'm still waiting for CCP to roll-out their Infiniband HPC magic and see if it actually makes a big enough difference for me to be impressed again. I am doubtful the HPC effort is going to remove the serial combat loop of doom though.
hired goon	Posted - 2009.06.06 18:45:00 - [10] I bet Microsoft are going to fail, then secretly come to CCP for help

Meiyang Lee Gallente Azteca Transportation Unlimited Gunboat Diplomacy	Posted - 2009.06.06 19:09:00 - [11] Aside from the "we want 300k people online concurrently on a single server" bit, I'm more curious where MS intends to get a game that has around 1.8 million subscribers to pull off those kinds of numbers. (EVE has roughly 300k subs, max concurrent user count was 50k-ish, so about 1:6) Last time MS mentioned anything concerning an MS-MMO they were saying they intend to stay out of the MMO market because they couldn't beat WoW, so there was no point. Personally, I'd love to see them try and fail horribly, 50k concurrent users isn't exactly nothing.
BalZ Gallente Nova-Tek Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.06.06 19:22:00 - [12] Originally by: MotherMoon ***rd Since when is "W O P" an offensive word? The profanity filter on this forum makes my head spin sometimes
Tallaran Kouros Caldari	Posted - 2009.06.06 19:57:00 - [13] Edited by: Tallaran Kouros on 06/06/2009 19:58:13 Originally by: MotherMoon SMACKS HEAD INTO DESK while you are right in your own way, I feel as if the word server gets throw around FAR too offen. a "server" is ALWAYS made out of multiple motherboards. Sorry to be a pedant here, but that's not correct either. I work in the IT industry and pretty much every server I have ever seen has just had the one motherboard, even the ESX host boxes that we run our VMs on. Quote: eve has one server. It is the cluster on which the server lies. That's not correct - Eve is a single game instance, spanning over multiple blade servers. Multiple systems run on each blade, with some busy systems (Jita for example) having a blade to themselves. The information above is straight from the dev blogs - you can read them yourself. Quote: For instance, I have a quad core cpu. does that mean i really have 4 cpus? You might do, depending on the manufacturing process. My desktop has a Q6600 Core 2 Quad. It had 4 cores, but that's comprised of two individual Core 2 Duo processors manufactured onto the one die. So 4 cores, two processors, one die. This is due to the manufacturing process that Intel use and if I remember correctly, AMD produce 4 separate cores on the one die, which I would argue counts as 4 CPUs. Quote: maybe techinly it does, but it counts as ONE cpu with FOUR cores. See above. Quote: and microsofts 300,000 server will also be stakcs and stacks of motherboards each with thier own rama nd such. just like ANY super computer. Again, that really depends. An IBM mainframe (i.e. "big iron") might well be one solid unit with multiple motherboards inside and you would be correct in that sense, and probably the same with most "super computers" that run off just one unit. However, that's not the same with a Beowolf Cluster that can be made up of multiple commodity x86/blade servers, which would be several generic server units that are clustered together at the OS level. It really depends how you want to look at it. Quote: hell, each wow shard is run on 10-20 servers. each node can handle about 300-400 people in wow, with 5000 people on each shard. But honestly the **rd shard is wrong. That is from back in the day when you had to shard one motherboard to run muliple game world. We just don't work that way anymore. shrug* This isn't the WoW forums :)
Jacob Mei	Posted - 2009.06.06 20:29:00 - [14] Correct me if I am wrong but didnt a CCP dev say back in the day that they and Microsoft were in some way working togeather, or at least sharing data with microsoft on account that eve has one of the largest super computers on the planet?
Lumy Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.06.06 21:02:00 - [15] Originally by: Jacob Mei Correct me if I am wrong but didnt a CCP dev say back in the day that they and Microsoft were in some way working togeather, or at least sharing data with microsoft on account that eve has one of the largest super computers on the planet? You are right: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nv5_zr182Q&feature=PlayList&p=A8BB3B304350AA79&index=14. CCP and Microsoft are working on moving Tranquility to HPC together. Joomla! in EVE - IGB compatible CMS.
Taedrin Gallente Golden Mechanization Protectorate	Posted - 2009.06.06 21:21:00 - [16] What is truly amazing about EVE isn't the fact that it has 50,000 concurrent users. 50,000 concurrent users is easy. Google probably serves hundreds of thousands of concurrent users at any given moment, just for example. No, what is amazing about EVE is that it has 50,000 concurrent users, and it is the SERVER which does ALL of the number crunching in the game. WoW, for example, does a LOT of client side number crunching with respect to collision detection and motion. EVE, on the other hand, does all of this server side for 50,000 concurrent users. There is very little (if any) hacking in EVE, due to the fact that everything is done server side. In WoW, the server is aided by each and every single client and as such shares the load with the computers of their customers. In EVE, the server does all the number crunching and all the client does is render the scene, forward information from the server to the user, and forward commands from the user to the server. The other amazing thing that EVE does, is how it seamlessly passes infromation between the nodes/servers. Every time you jump through a gate, your character's information is passed from one server to the next automatically. COnsider in WoW, that they charge you $50 to move a character from one server to another. In EVE, this happens hundreds of thousands of times a day. If Microsoft chose a format similar to WoW, where the client does the majority of the computations, it should be EASY for them to create a server capable of serving 300,000 clients - especially if they have CCP to advise them.
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.06.06 21:43:00 - [17] Edited by: Whitehound on 06/06/2009 21:43:23 300k users in one game and playing with real money. Microsoft must be working on "Microsoft Poker 2010" and it is going to replace Solitaire. -- If there is anything in your life you fear of losing, then keep your mouth shut once in a while.
Awesome Possum Insert Obscure Latin Name	Posted - 2009.06.07 17:20:00 - [18] Originally by: BalZ Originally by: MotherMoon ***rd Since when is "W O P" an offensive word? The profanity filter on this forum makes my head spin sometimes it's a slur against italians. ♥ Wreck Disposal Services
Martin Mckenna D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2009.06.07 19:13:00 - [19] ***?
Elena Khan	Posted - 2009.06.08 04:57:00 - [20] Oh!!!! they are gonna use this for Windows 8 !!! where we are all gonna pay though the nose for the joyfull experience of the ultimate cloud computing..... Awsome.... looks like it's time to switch to Linux.... (with wine to run eve online)

Dralon Dragon Highlords Death Is Everywhere	Posted - 2009.06.08 11:36:00 - [21] The question is what pay rise are they offering to ninja the eve devs?
Hariya	Posted - 2009.06.08 12:53:00 - [22] Originally by: Dr Slaughter Personally I'm not that impressed they've got a SQL cluster with a RAMSAN and some clever caching. I'm not very impressed about the performance either. Having rough idea about how much the 50k online people cause load and what hardware they got I would say the performance they are getting out all that is **** poor. I could guarantee at least 10x more performance if I set them up for instance AIX+DB2+SoliDB combination, given I could change a bit the database schemas (for instance a lot of the market stuff could well be MQTs) and had access to proper amount of memory (at least 128 gigabytes) on the database server.
Midge Mo'yb Antares Shipyards Hoodlums Associates	Posted - 2009.06.08 13:08:00 - [23] I KNOW EVE SERVER AN HAZ NOT SEEN IT I AM PSHYCIC! PH34R ME
EliteSlave Minmatar Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.06.08 13:58:00 - [24] Originally by: Hariya Originally by: Dr Slaughter Personally I'm not that impressed they've got a SQL cluster with a RAMSAN and some clever caching. I'm not very impressed about the performance either. Having rough idea about how much the 50k online people cause load and what hardware they got I would say the performance they are getting out all that is **** poor. I could guarantee at least 10x more performance if I set them up for instance AIX+DB2+SoliDB combination, given I could change a bit the database schemas (for instance a lot of the market stuff could well be MQTs) and had access to proper amount of memory (at least 128 gigabytes) on the database server. If I remember correctly from a DEV circa 2007, EVE has enough Market transactions in 1 day, to rival that of a Major US bank, not to add all the other database calls.. I'd like to see you create such a fluid database
Dr Slaughter Minmatar Rabies Inc.	Posted - 2009.06.08 20:24:00 - [25] Originally by: EliteSlave Originally by: Hariya Originally by: Dr Slaughter Personally I'm not that impressed they've got a SQL cluster with a RAMSAN and some clever caching. I'm not very impressed about the performance either. Having rough idea about how much the 50k online people cause load and what hardware they got I would say the performance they are getting out all that is ** poor. I could guarantee at least 10x more performance if I set them up for instance AIX+DB2+SoliDB combination, given I could change a bit the database schemas (for instance a lot of the market stuff could well be MQTs) and had access to proper amount of memory (at least 128 gigabytes) on the database server. If I remember correctly from a DEV circa 2007, EVE has enough Market transactions in 1 day, to rival that of a Major US bank, not to add all the other database calls.. I'd like to see you create such a fluid database LOL yeah. My point wasn't that they're using MS SQL incase anyone thought it was. I really** don't want to read another Unix/Oracle/my pet Forth database project on an FPGA... would be quicker/better/more cost effective. My point really is that they're getting additionally impressive hardware (Infiniband connected blades) to solve an impressive problem (stuffs on grid) and I hope to hell their code refactoring is going well..... ~~~~ There is no parody in this thread. Honest.


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