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Dawnstar
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Posted - 2004.09.14 17:12:00 -
[1]
After reading up on another post on specializing gun skills, I thought I'd throw something out for discussion. Specifically, that manufacturing needs more skills to diversify the costs of actually building things (as opposed just prerequisites to be able to build items). This is an area that just hasn't gotten the love it really deserves.
Right now, there is only a single skill which affects the direct cost of manufacturing (Production Efficiency). Because of this, by training a single skill up, I am more effective at building everything from iron ammo to an Apocalypse battleship.
There really needs to be more skills which affect the cost of manufacturing stuff. The difference between a top-notch manufacturer and the worst is really rather paltry compared to the differences between the best and worst in other fields.
What does everyone else think?
-D
Proposal for Overhauling Manufacturing. |
Dawnstar
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Posted - 2004.09.14 17:12:00 -
[2]
After reading up on another post on specializing gun skills, I thought I'd throw something out for discussion. Specifically, that manufacturing needs more skills to diversify the costs of actually building things (as opposed just prerequisites to be able to build items). This is an area that just hasn't gotten the love it really deserves.
Right now, there is only a single skill which affects the direct cost of manufacturing (Production Efficiency). Because of this, by training a single skill up, I am more effective at building everything from iron ammo to an Apocalypse battleship.
There really needs to be more skills which affect the cost of manufacturing stuff. The difference between a top-notch manufacturer and the worst is really rather paltry compared to the differences between the best and worst in other fields.
What does everyone else think?
-D
Proposal for Overhauling Manufacturing. |
Tisti
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Posted - 2004.09.15 10:38:00 -
[3]
no no no no.. we don't need more and more specilization skills if it takes so damn long to train them all :(
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Tisti
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Posted - 2004.09.15 10:38:00 -
[4]
no no no no.. we don't need more and more specilization skills if it takes so damn long to train them all :(
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Jim Steele
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Posted - 2004.09.15 12:44:00 -
[5]
i dont think we need anymore manufacturing skills as that would distract from the ammount of gunnary skills i can pile on  ,
seriously tho, an idea would be to have the existing skills for tech 2 reduce tech 2 requirements to make the module.
For example frigate construction reduces the ammount of rare T2 components needed to make frigates, and the PE skill only reduces the base mineral costs. Same conditions could apply to make say T2 cloaks' the grav and quantum physics skills could reduce this rare mineral need or even if applied to researching them reduce the minerals required to research the BP. Would make sense that a gravitational expert would need less databases to research the cloaks then some bum of a street.
Thats just my ideas anyway, dont think we need new skills but mabye a modification of the way things currently work.
Death to the Galante |
Jim Steele
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Posted - 2004.09.15 12:44:00 -
[6]
i dont think we need anymore manufacturing skills as that would distract from the ammount of gunnary skills i can pile on ,
seriously tho, an idea would be to have the existing skills for tech 2 reduce tech 2 requirements to make the module.
For example frigate construction reduces the ammount of rare T2 components needed to make frigates, and the PE skill only reduces the base mineral costs. Same conditions could apply to make say T2 cloaks' the grav and quantum physics skills could reduce this rare mineral need or even if applied to researching them reduce the minerals required to research the BP. Would make sense that a gravitational expert would need less databases to research the cloaks then some bum of a street.
Thats just my ideas anyway, dont think we need new skills but mabye a modification of the way things currently work.
Death to the Galante |
NoXiD
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Posted - 2004.09.15 16:27:00 -
[7]
I totally agree - i have wished for this for ages
Extra skills like
Adv Shield Manufacturing
Adv Frig Manufacturing
Adv Hybrid Manufacturing
so you can specialise in one area
but i supose thats what they are doing with tech 2.. shame- but i would have thought this lot would be in the game from the start..
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NoXiD
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Posted - 2004.09.15 16:27:00 -
[8]
I totally agree - i have wished for this for ages
Extra skills like
Adv Shield Manufacturing
Adv Frig Manufacturing
Adv Hybrid Manufacturing
so you can specialise in one area
but i supose thats what they are doing with tech 2.. shame- but i would have thought this lot would be in the game from the start..
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Kloggerella
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Posted - 2004.09.16 08:31:00 -
[9]
I agree, its too damn easy for anyone to train PE lvl3 and have only 8% more cost than a perfect builder.
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Kloggerella
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Posted - 2004.09.16 08:31:00 -
[10]
I agree, its too damn easy for anyone to train PE lvl3 and have only 8% more cost than a perfect builder.
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Raven Dru
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Posted - 2004.09.16 11:25:00 -
[11]
 Originally by: Jim Steele
seriously tho, an idea would be to have the existing skills for tech 2 reduce tech 2 requirements to make the module.
For example frigate construction reduces the ammount of rare T2 components needed to make frigates, and the PE skill only reduces the base mineral costs. Same conditions could apply to make say T2 cloaks' the grav and quantum physics skills could reduce this rare mineral need or even if applied to researching them reduce the minerals required to research the BP. Would make sense that a gravitational expert would need less databases to research the cloaks then some bum of a street.
Thats just my ideas anyway, dont think we need new skills but mabye a modification of the way things currently work.
The best ideas are always the simplest. Repost this in more detail, make it a sticky and get a thousand builders to sign it. I have PE4 to build stuff, couldnt really be bothered to go for 5 because i can still compete in the market with level 4 but using the above as an example i'd be happy to continue onwards as a builder.
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Raven Dru
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Posted - 2004.09.16 11:25:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Jim Steele
seriously tho, an idea would be to have the existing skills for tech 2 reduce tech 2 requirements to make the module.
For example frigate construction reduces the ammount of rare T2 components needed to make frigates, and the PE skill only reduces the base mineral costs. Same conditions could apply to make say T2 cloaks' the grav and quantum physics skills could reduce this rare mineral need or even if applied to researching them reduce the minerals required to research the BP. Would make sense that a gravitational expert would need less databases to research the cloaks then some bum of a street.
Thats just my ideas anyway, dont think we need new skills but mabye a modification of the way things currently work.
The best ideas are always the simplest. Repost this in more detail, make it a sticky and get a thousand builders to sign it. I have PE4 to build stuff, couldnt really be bothered to go for 5 because i can still compete in the market with level 4 but using the above as an example i'd be happy to continue onwards as a builder.
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Dr Caymus
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Posted - 2004.09.16 14:21:00 -
[13]
Being purely focused on industry, I could not agree more with this suggestion! As it stands, it is impossible to gain a competitive advantage, even over the typical non-specialized character.
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Dr Caymus
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Posted - 2004.09.16 14:21:00 -
[14]
Being purely focused on industry, I could not agree more with this suggestion! As it stands, it is impossible to gain a competitive advantage, even over the typical non-specialized character.
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Dawnstar
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Posted - 2004.09.16 23:55:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Dawnstar on 17/09/2004 02:16:31
Edited by: Dawnstar on 16/09/2004 23:58:30
Awhile back I threw together a pretty detailed proposal of some of the ideas I had and posted it up in the idea lab (where it promptly disappeared off into the oblivion which was the bottom of the list). Advanced skills were part of the overall concept I threw together. If you want to take a look at what I originally had it is here:
Manufacturing Overhaul Thoughts
I'd love to hear what people think.
-D
Proposal for Overhauling Manufacturing. |
Dawnstar
|
Posted - 2004.09.16 23:55:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Dawnstar on 17/09/2004 02:16:31
Edited by: Dawnstar on 16/09/2004 23:58:30
Awhile back I threw together a pretty detailed proposal of some of the ideas I had and posted it up in the idea lab (where it promptly disappeared off into the oblivion which was the bottom of the list). Advanced skills were part of the overall concept I threw together. If you want to take a look at what I originally had it is here:
Manufacturing Overhaul Thoughts
I'd love to hear what people think.
-D
Proposal for Overhauling Manufacturing. |
Mangold
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Posted - 2004.09.27 10:15:00 -
[17]
I'd love to see more manufacturing skills! As stated above the difference between a perfect builder and a new player is to small.
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Mangold
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Posted - 2004.09.27 10:15:00 -
[18]
I'd love to see more manufacturing skills! As stated above the difference between a perfect builder and a new player is to small.
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Yonna
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Posted - 2004.09.27 11:51:00 -
[19]
In a way there are specialist building skills. Although you have to look at the Tech 2 stuff.
For building Tech 2 you need besides Production Eff also several science skills.
I know this is not what Dawnstar means but it is a start
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Yonna
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Posted - 2004.09.27 11:51:00 -
[20]
In a way there are specialist building skills. Although you have to look at the Tech 2 stuff.
For building Tech 2 you need besides Production Eff also several science skills.
I know this is not what Dawnstar means but it is a start
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Rodj Blake
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Posted - 2004.09.27 13:16:00 -
[21]
How about keeping PE skill as it is (reducing mineral cost), but add in specialised T2 production skills that reduce the T2 component cost?
Dolce et decorum est pro imperator mori |
Rodj Blake
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Posted - 2004.09.27 13:16:00 -
[22]
How about keeping PE skill as it is (reducing mineral cost), but add in specialised T2 production skills that reduce the T2 component cost?
Dolce et decorum est pro imperator mori |
Dawnstar
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Posted - 2004.09.27 21:56:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Yonna
In a way there are specialist building skills. Although you have to look at the Tech 2 stuff.
For building Tech 2 you need besides Production Eff also several science skills.
I know this is not what Dawnstar means but it is a start
Yes, I'm aware of those skills and requirements for manufacturing tech 2 items. And you're correct its not quite what I meant. I'm more looking at it from a standpoint of a skilled manufacturer adds, at most a 25% increase in value to the process of building (which compounds with material efficiency for a total of 37.5%). I'd like to see more value added by using a skilled manufacturer.
The tech 2 skills as pre-reqs to manufacture, while a nice concept, fall down in the sense that once you've met the pre-reqs (of which there are only a few), there is little time/effort involved with obtaining the skill itself. Fundamentally, the skill tree isn't wide enough at the base. All of the pre-reqs funnels through a few skills at the base and everyone has those. Furthermore, costs go down everywhere through the training of a single skill (PE), rather than having to specialize to really get the costs down on some specific area.
Prerequisite skills aren't the answer. I'd really like to see a wide range of more specialized skills (and other effects) that affect the costs of doing business. This would mean more waste for those who haven't specialized in an area (and therefore more costs).
The trick is to make the skills pay off well for a narrow range of items, but to have many different skills with mediocre prerequisites, so that it is difficult to be really good at all of them. This would let a manufacturer who, for example, specialized in energy weapons, beat out (cost-wise) a manufacturer who didn't specialize in that area, but only in that area. This would allow more diverse costs for manufacturing, making it more of a consideration whether to buy from the market.
The cost differences, or lack thereof is part of the reason for the price depression on the market. There is a point beyond which it is cost-effective to buy an item, and most players realize this. If I can build something myself for the cost of a print (typically running <= 10% of the inputs or so) plus at most 37.5% over base minerals, why would I bother ever paying more than base cost +50% for anything? We've effectively capped the value gained by buying vs building yourself at around 50%. And this isn't even talking aout someone who has invested a very small amount of time into the skills/research. For them, the margin which is worth paying is even smaller.
This also is the reason there isn't much activity moving player-built goods about. There isn't enough to be made by buying someone's cheap goods and shipping them somewhere to sell for more versus just making your own. If the margin of costs were more in the order of 300% (or more) savings for a truly outtstanding specialized manufacturer and prices better reflected this, I think you might see further movement in the player-built goods markets.
I realize that I've oversimplified some of the aspects of the market, and I do realize that it is possible to make a considerable profit on the market (I do fairly well regularly myself). But that is ultimately a matter of trading effectively rather than building effectively.
For those that argue that a monopoly or a very near monopoly is sufficient to keep prices high, I'd disagree. The numbers I've seen on the Miner II's price are rather disheartening. I think eventually, most tech II items will suffer the same fate with their prices. The prices of some items are deflating rather rapidly in some cases already.
Anyways, just my thoughts.
-D
Proposal for Overhauling Manufacturing. |
Dawnstar
|
Posted - 2004.09.27 21:56:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Yonna
In a way there are specialist building skills. Although you have to look at the Tech 2 stuff.
For building Tech 2 you need besides Production Eff also several science skills.
I know this is not what Dawnstar means but it is a start
Yes, I'm aware of those skills and requirements for manufacturing tech 2 items. And you're correct its not quite what I meant. I'm more looking at it from a standpoint of a skilled manufacturer adds, at most a 25% increase in value to the process of building (which compounds with material efficiency for a total of 37.5%). I'd like to see more value added by using a skilled manufacturer.
The tech 2 skills as pre-reqs to manufacture, while a nice concept, fall down in the sense that once you've met the pre-reqs (of which there are only a few), there is little time/effort involved with obtaining the skill itself. Fundamentally, the skill tree isn't wide enough at the base. All of the pre-reqs funnels through a few skills at the base and everyone has those. Furthermore, costs go down everywhere through the training of a single skill (PE), rather than having to specialize to really get the costs down on some specific area.
Prerequisite skills aren't the answer. I'd really like to see a wide range of more specialized skills (and other effects) that affect the costs of doing business. This would mean more waste for those who haven't specialized in an area (and therefore more costs).
The trick is to make the skills pay off well for a narrow range of items, but to have many different skills with mediocre prerequisites, so that it is difficult to be really good at all of them. This would let a manufacturer who, for example, specialized in energy weapons, beat out (cost-wise) a manufacturer who didn't specialize in that area, but only in that area. This would allow more diverse costs for manufacturing, making it more of a consideration whether to buy from the market.
The cost differences, or lack thereof is part of the reason for the price depression on the market. There is a point beyond which it is cost-effective to buy an item, and most players realize this. If I can build something myself for the cost of a print (typically running <= 10% of the inputs or so) plus at most 37.5% over base minerals, why would I bother ever paying more than base cost +50% for anything? We've effectively capped the value gained by buying vs building yourself at around 50%. And this isn't even talking aout someone who has invested a very small amount of time into the skills/research. For them, the margin which is worth paying is even smaller.
This also is the reason there isn't much activity moving player-built goods about. There isn't enough to be made by buying someone's cheap goods and shipping them somewhere to sell for more versus just making your own. If the margin of costs were more in the order of 300% (or more) savings for a truly outtstanding specialized manufacturer and prices better reflected this, I think you might see further movement in the player-built goods markets.
I realize that I've oversimplified some of the aspects of the market, and I do realize that it is possible to make a considerable profit on the market (I do fairly well regularly myself). But that is ultimately a matter of trading effectively rather than building effectively.
For those that argue that a monopoly or a very near monopoly is sufficient to keep prices high, I'd disagree. The numbers I've seen on the Miner II's price are rather disheartening. I think eventually, most tech II items will suffer the same fate with their prices. The prices of some items are deflating rather rapidly in some cases already.
Anyways, just my thoughts.
-D
Proposal for Overhauling Manufacturing. |
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