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How to move into and keep a Wormhole: A how to guide.

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Qaedienne	Posted - 2009.06.10 02:58:00 - [31] I'd skip T2 scanning ships and just get a lot of T1 scanners instead. T1's can scan everything down quickly. I'd add an Orca to the "must have" list as it helps miners out a lot (and wormhole belts are very nice), and is the ship with the biggest cargo bay that can fit through most wormholes. A Rorqual would be better, but I don't know if it would fit. Every ship that will farm sleepers must tank well. Real well. Like T2-fit Drake well (or T2 fit Rokh, if you prefer). Sleepers switch targets, do omni-damage, and hit hard. They will pick remote reppers out quickly and aggro them, so your support ships must tank as well. Fleet boosters are very important in wormholes.
ArcDragon Caldari FUSION INDUSTRIES	Posted - 2009.06.10 15:42:00 - [32] Added optional Orca to the ship list. Did proof reading.
lo breeze LB's Hole Mongers	Posted - 2009.06.10 17:01:00 - [33] Skipping on T2 scanners is ludicrous. You aren't going to pin down harder sites with T1 frigs.
Marchocias Silent Ninja's	Posted - 2009.06.10 17:17:00 - [34] Woah! Rather a good guide... but, er, why on earth are you letting the plebs know all of this? You're gonna start slashing everyones profits! Damn! ---- I belong to Silent Ninja (Hopefully that should cover it).
lo breeze LB's Hole Mongers	Posted - 2009.06.10 17:29:00 - [35] Quote: Woah! Rather a good guide... but, er, why on earth are you letting the plebs know all of this? You're gonna start slashing everyones profits! Damn! More plebs = More frozen corpsies.
Herzog Wolfhammer	Posted - 2009.06.10 18:25:00 - [36] Originally by: lo breeze Skipping on T2 scanners is ludicrous. You aren't going to pin down harder sites with T1 frigs. Good skills and a gravity cap rig can help a T1 racial frig with probe bonus considerably. If CPP intended on there being diffculty levels based on signal weakness versus probing skill/bonus/ship bonus+rigging, I have yet to see it in effect. There have been times when myself and others have experienced a sig strength of 99.5 or something like that and could not get better, and a bonus such as using a covops with the 10 percent or a T1 with bonus and grav cap, or a named probe (Sisters for example) could have added that little extra bit. I would be curious to find out if there ever could be a site with such low sig strength that one would have to be really twinked in scanning to get a lock on. Would such a site have more reward too?
ArcDragon Caldari FUSION INDUSTRIES	Posted - 2009.06.10 19:25:00 - [37] Just from my own experience there is a noticable difference between Kspace exploration site signal strengths and Wspace ones. I found this hard to prove with numbers so I have left it out of most things I've published. It is the concensus of our corp that sites in a level 5 are definately more difficult than say a C1 or Kspace site. How much we can not quantify, but it does make sense if you think about how to make a site that can net you 700M harder to do. Deadly WHs are consistantly more difficult to pin. Our static wormhole could not be pinned with a T1 character with level 3 scanning skills and no rigs. I keep telling the nay sayers that there is a reason for everything in the guide and this too goes to that fact. If you are in a hard wormhole, the signitures are going to be weaker right off the bat. I knew this, so I wrote it into the guide to have 4/3/3/3. Some of you ought to be more trusting or at least give me the benifit of the doubt. Cheers. If it has a SAVE button...I'm not interested.
lo breeze LB's Hole Mongers	Posted - 2009.06.10 19:53:00 - [38] Quote: There have been times when myself and others have experienced a sig strength of 99.5 or something like that and could not get better, and a bonus such as using a covops with the 10 percent or a T1 with bonus and grav cap, or a named probe (Sisters for example) could have added that little extra bit. I would be curious to find out if there ever could be a site with such low sig strength that one would have to be really twinked in scanning to get a lock on. Would such a site have more reward too? Have you explored 0.0? What is the hardest Class WH you've scanned in? I have a buddy who has decent scanning skills, and has trouble pinning radar's in Class 1 & 2 WH's. He hasn't been able to do it yet as far as I know. I always have to come in with my covops with good skills to get them. Harder sites definitely have better rewards.
Dredge Boomer	Posted - 2009.06.11 00:33:00 - [39] Little bit of overkill there, but useful information none the less. On hostiles in particular; My alt has lived in unknown space for 2 months now, class 5. We have had very little hostile interaction. Once our miners got caught off guard once, this is when we learned to bubble all active wh's. Since then no trouble, every hostile that has entered has been dispatched or podded themselves home. Just for lulz, a guy chased a corpie in from the nextdoor system, attempted to attack a tower, ejected from his ship and jumped out of his pod. LOL, free ship! Thanks buddy :-) We run 6 towers in our 'main' system. From there when there is nothing present in that system, 3 or 4 of us will go 'on tour' with an orca, small tower etc.. to a neighbouring system. This way we are alway active. It is much easier to be based in wh space and occupy systems temporarily. Refueling/supply's is never any problem, the chain is only ever 2 systems. We started this with just 3 guys, more followed. More lulz, when we found this system it was occupied. We promptly decided that we were not sharing. 3 BS's seiged their small tower, put into reinforced then waited with cap support. Yes we got two caps in our entry point. These guys *****ed and moaned as we grinded their tower down, then they decided to try and pack up and leave. Free tower.. lulz
Dredge Boomer	Posted - 2009.06.11 02:33:00 - [40] Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer Originally by: lo breeze Skipping on T2 scanners is ludicrous. You aren't going to pin down harder sites with T1 frigs. Good skills and a gravity cap rig can help a T1 racial frig with probe bonus considerably. If CPP intended on there being diffculty levels based on signal weakness versus probing skill/bonus/ship bonus+rigging, I have yet to see it in effect. There have been times when myself and others have experienced a sig strength of 99.5 or something like that and could not get better, and a bonus such as using a covops with the 10 percent or a T1 with bonus and grav cap, or a named probe (Sisters for example) could have added that little extra bit. I would be curious to find out if there ever could be a site with such low sig strength that one would have to be really twinked in scanning to get a lock on. Would such a site have more reward too? Any site can be nailed with less than desired skills and equipment. If you can't nail a site down, i'm sorry but you just suck at scanning. Try and re-orientate your probes, to close together or to far apart and the scan is weakened. Anything between 5-8 probes should be used always, no less.
Qaedienne	Posted - 2009.06.11 03:21:00 - [41] Originally by: lo breeze Skipping on T2 scanners is ludicrous. You aren't going to pin down harder sites with T1 frigs. I use a Heron, and haven't failed to scan down a site yet. I guess I live in the ludicrous wormholes.
Qui Shon	Posted - 2009.06.11 06:33:00 - [42] Skipping on T2 scanners and Sisters gear IS absolutely ludicrous. NOT because you can't scan everything down with T1 crap, but because you're WASTING time and effort.
Turiel Demon Minmatar Shadow Reapers	Posted - 2009.06.11 12:29:00 - [43] Absolutly, a covops is not an expensive ship compared to all the things you're taking in (even sisters launcher and probes are tbh), and that 40%/50% extra probe strength will speed up your scanning so much. It means discovering and ignoring the sites that are grav that much faster, it means getting signals at 1 AU instead of 0.5, it means you don't have to be so precise about probe placement when trying to get that annoying 99,xx% signal at 0.25 AU etc. Pretty much all Core class sites need you to go down to 0.25 AU with: sisters probes, sisters launcher, covops 4, scan strength skill 4. Without at least half of those things, I'll bet some core sigs can't be completely scanned down. I can finish finding all interesting sigs in an average 16 sig C6 system in 25 minutes, without, I bet it would take me much longer.
ArcDragon Caldari FUSION INDUSTRIES	Posted - 2009.06.11 16:15:00 - [44] I'm getting ****ed about this scanning crap. YES you can scan down MOST things with LESS than T2 with faction equipment and rigs and 4/3/3/3. YES YOU CAN. NOW LISTEN UP. You have BILLIONS at stake. Your whole corp income depends on the profitablity of this or that wormhole. You can not predict when hostiles will come in. You can not get ANY warning about when a wormhole forms because some null sec corp wants to invade so they were scanning all morning looking for the right WH. So, in short, your pants are down to some degree ALL THE TIME. What does that mean? It means you can get popped at ANY TIME. Why would you care about that? Well, if ALL of your corp mates DON'T bring in scan ships OR they only bring in T1 crap then one of two things is going to happen. 1) The only guy with a scan ship will be the one popped. You are screwed. 2) The only scan ship(s) you have available is the crappy T1 type. So, while you are out taking one hour searching for that exit or entrance the hostiles are taking down your POS. TIME IS IMPORTANT. It's not up for debate gents, spend the money on a fantastic T2 ships with rigs and faction equipment. I PROMISE you will never go back to using T1 crap after just a few system scans. They are worlds apart. If everything you do depends on scanning ships, then why not get the best???
ArcDragon Caldari FUSION INDUSTRIES	Posted - 2009.06.11 16:34:00 - [45] Tweaked People and added THE GOAL.
DoctorMartin	Posted - 2009.06.11 17:08:00 - [46] Originally by: ArcDragon I'm getting **ed about this scanning crap. Gettin mad at video games! Quote: 2) The only scan ship(s) you have available is the crappy T1 type. So, while you are out taking one hour searching for that exit or entrance the hostiles are taking down your POS. TIME IS IMPORTANT. What's the rush? You should have strontium in the tower and thus plenty of time to find your way out and make your escape if you are planning on abandoning your tower/system. If you are trying to scan your way back** to your wormhole system/pos and you don't know where it is then you have bigger problems than a sub-optimal scanning ship. If you aren't trying to run away and you aren't trying to find your way back to your pos... then what are you scanning down during an attack that's so time dependent?
ArcDragon Caldari FUSION INDUSTRIES	Posted - 2009.06.11 18:21:00 - [47] I'm not enganging in anymore explanations. I've already explained. I have also rewriten sections of the guide, so reread it before you post please. Please contribute rather than argue about some point. This is a GUIDE, take it or leave it. If your opinion is different than mine about something then YOU write a guide. I wrote this because I KNOW what works and thought I'd be nice and share it.
Iece Quaan Caldari Utopian Research I.E.L. Hedonistic Imperative	Posted - 2009.06.11 18:32:00 - [48] Edited by: Iece Quaan on 11/06/2009 18:35:05 You're definitely better off with a rigged covops as a main scanning vessel, with good support skills. You don't want to spend all your time scanning out sites, you want to spend your time looting them. There's really no excuse not to, cloaked covops is undetectable and invulnerable unless you make a mistake. That said, it's worth having a backup of some sort, whether you park a Probe at the POS, or park an alt in a scanning ship with less than optimal skills. Something is better than nothing. It only takes one sleepy WTZ moment to get your covops instapopped by argos turrets. =) This is your get out of jail free card in case you get hosed. It only needs to be good enough to find exit WHs, not top-level radar sites. The thing to remember is that if you don't have some sort of backup, you run the risk of having everything lost. Balance that against the time investment of training an alt for a week and parking him in a t1 scan frig in your WH system. Look at it as insurance.
Iece Quaan Caldari Utopian Research I.E.L. Hedonistic Imperative	Posted - 2009.06.11 18:33:00 - [49] Edited by: Iece Quaan on 11/06/2009 18:33:54 double post.. on my internets? it's more common than you think
DoctorMartin	Posted - 2009.06.11 19:50:00 - [50] Originally by: ArcDragon I'm not enganging in anymore explanations. I've already explained. I have also rewriten sections of the guide, so reread it before you post please. Please contribute rather than argue about some point. This is a GUIDE, take it or leave it. If your opinion is different than mine about something then YOU write a guide. I wrote this because I KNOW what works and thought I'd be nice and share it. I have a pretty good idea of what works and what doesn't. There's no argument that there is a day-night difference between a covops with rigs and sisters probes and a battleship with a probe launcher stuffed in there for emergencies. I was simply trying to understand the need for a fast scanning ship to scan down things while your tower is being attacked.
Arlic0 Caldari Aperture Harmonics	Posted - 2009.06.11 22:30:00 - [51] Nice write up. Thanks Arc!
Qaedienne	Posted - 2009.06.12 03:19:00 - [52] Originally by: Qui Shon Skipping on T2 scanners and Sisters gear IS absolutely ludicrous. NOT because you can't scan everything down with T1 crap, but because you're WASTING time and effort. Originally by: Turiel Demon Absolutly, a covops is not an expensive ship compared to all the things you're taking in (even sisters launcher and probes are tbh), and that 40%/50% extra probe strength will speed up your scanning so much. It means discovering and ignoring the sites that are grav that much faster, it means getting signals at 1 AU instead of 0.5, it means you don't have to be so precise about probe placement when trying to get that annoying 99,xx% signal at 0.25 AU etc. Pretty much all Core class sites need you to go down to 0.25 AU with: sisters probes, sisters launcher, covops 4, scan strength skill 4. Without at least half of those things, I'll bet some core sigs can't be completely scanned down. I can finish finding all interesting sigs in an average 16 sig C6 system in 25 minutes, without, I bet it would take me much longer. Originally by: ArcDragon I'm getting ****ed about this scanning crap. YES you can scan down MOST things with LESS than T2 with faction equipment and rigs and 4/3/3/3. YES YOU CAN. NOW LISTEN UP. You have BILLIONS at stake. Your whole corp income depends on the profitablity of this or that wormhole. You can not predict when hostiles will come in. You can not get ANY warning about when a wormhole forms because some null sec corp wants to invade so they were scanning all morning looking for the right WH. So, in short, your pants are down to some degree ALL THE TIME. What does that mean? It means you can get popped at ANY TIME. Why would you care about that? Well, if ALL of your corp mates DON'T bring in scan ships OR they only bring in T1 crap then one of two things is going to happen. 1) The only guy with a scan ship will be the one popped. You are screwed. 2) The only scan ship(s) you have available is the crappy T1 type. So, while you are out taking one hour searching for that exit or entrance the hostiles are taking down your POS. TIME IS IMPORTANT. It's not up for debate gents, spend the money on a fantastic T2 ships with rigs and faction equipment. I PROMISE you will never go back to using T1 crap after just a few system scans. They are worlds apart. If everything you do depends on scanning ships, then why not get the best??? All 3 of you need to relax. If you're really living in a wormhole, you'd realize that you don't get that many additional sigs per day. The time it will take to scan new sigs down with either a T1 or T2 scanning ship will be trivial. Therefor, if you don't already have the skills to run a T2 scanning ship, it's not the end of the world. If you've already got the skills, knock yourself out. Sorry you think I'm peeing in your cheerios, Arc. Qui Shon: This whole game, by definition, is a waste of time. Why flip out about this tiny aspect of it?
Kva Plexcha	Posted - 2009.06.12 03:38:00 - [53] Ultimately, Its ArcDragons guide to keeping a wormhole, and he is suggesting what he thinks is best. I'm sure I scan differently from others, and if I wanted to share my tips in a guide, I would. Just take whatever info from this guide that suits your playing style and wing the rest your way. I think the guide is great, and lots of info here that I can process. And Arc has changed or tweaked plenty of things that He thinks is great, so keep suggesting things.
Ashmira Wintereyes Caldari Free Spirits	Posted - 2009.06.12 07:31:00 - [54] It's a nice guide for sure, however a little point could be changed and that's to mention this guide is primarily targeted at well established corps with enough funding to maintain such an expensive amount of materials in w-space, as it surely aint for starting corps that think about moving into w-space. I know this will trigger discussions as , noob corps have no place in w-space etc, but bottom line is that alot of systems are visited very infrequently, while some have alot of connections to known space and see fleets on regular base. As others mentioned/flamed a little about doing the same with less then half what is in the guide, that might be more realistic for the smaller/starting corps out there being bored of hi-sec, but are afraid of moving to low-sec and perhaps the ones shouting all can be done with alot less isks could write a 'starters w-space populating guide' for them so one has 2 flavours, the starter and high-end shoppinglist. maybe a nice addition for ArcDragon, which gives out usefull guides i might add, is to make an estimated cost for his setup, this way possible starters can see if they are close to the mark that works for them, or can draw out the plans for their corp to swap around some stuff and adjust it to a price closer to their planned investment.
Qui Shon	Posted - 2009.06.12 09:07:00 - [55] Edited by: Qui Shon on 12/06/2009 09:11:56 Originally by: Qaedienne All 3 of you need to relax. If you're really living in a wormhole, you'd realize that you don't get that many additional sigs per day. The time it will take to scan new sigs down with either a T1 or T2 scanning ship will be trivial. Therefor, if you don't already have the skills to run a T2 scanning ship, it's not the end of the world. If you've already got the skills, knock yourself out. Qui Shon: This whole game, by definition, is a waste of time. Why flip out about this tiny aspect of it? I'm not flipping out, I'm emphasizing certain words. I have learned to do this because people in general seem to have low reading comprehension, and tend to miss out on key words. When I do flip out, as much as one can on a messageboard, you will get all caps and half expletives. But of course even then it will be theatrics, not actually "flipping out". If you want to go live in w-space JUST to have fun, as opposed to being motivated BOTH by fun and profit, and you think scanning is fun, if you don't care whether it's actually profitable compared to some other available activity, or whether you get blown up when you one day get the wrong wh (which you in all likelyhood will, sooner or later), then no guide or advice matters at all. What you should realize is, any system you set up in, you should be emptying of suitable sigs in no time at all, like in a few days. It's your neighbouring systems that you spend your scanning effort on, where you can find the riches available in w-space. Either that or you move systems every 3-6 days. It's also your neighbouring systems where you find your threats, and if you are a small group, you may need to find them before they find you to avoid losses. If you haven't ran across any YET, good for you, hope your luck continues. ps. Small POS's are a midafternoon snack for many w-space PvP groups. Personally, I think using a large pos is the only alternative that makes any sense. That makes it too annoying and too timeconsuming for most people to bother with.
ArcDragon Caldari FUSION INDUSTRIES	Posted - 2009.06.12 13:26:00 - [56] Put in a cost estimate, very generic, good idea Ashmira. Qui is correct about the toughness of a small POS. A group of 6 battlecruisers took one out in a wormhole. I was there for it. I never thought about the time it takes as being a part of the defense, but I think your right about that too Qui. Cheers.
Haram Haram	Posted - 2009.06.15 10:48:00 - [57] Originally by: Qui Shon Edited by: Qui Shon on 09/06/2009 12:12:29 Originally by: Haram Haram First off, you only need Astrometrics at 1. Higher level in Astro will merely give you an extra useless probe. Only 4 probes are needed to get a 100% scan result. If you need more probes you are doing something wrong. Always I see this this near useless word "need". Yes you can scan with just Astro 1, but in wh-space it's far too slow to be of much use, Quote: It takes more time to place 7 probes than it does 4 and result is the same. So if it takes you longer to find something with 4 probes than it does with 7 you are really doing something wrong. Secondly, for a class 5 a 100% battleship or better? lmao. try a buffertanked bc at lvl 1. Buffer, sig and speed are most important. And in this order. And what use is a buffertanked bc at lvl 1? Even if you can keep it alive against the sleepers, which I'm sure you can, so what? How much dps does it do at 70km? How much at 1km, if you intend to get in close on each rat, and how much time do you waste doing that? What does it actually contribute? Frig killer? Yeah, maybe after the battleships have taken down the sleeper rr ships. I can only conclude that you have never flown a drake. Big shield buffer, good resists, good enough dps. Same dps at 70km as 1 km. Will kill anything solo thats is not remote repped. No time wasted. Its pointless to have a high dps ship that melts in 30 seconds. You need a gang for core sites anyway. So its about survival first and dps through numbers later.
ArcDragon Caldari FUSION INDUSTRIES	Posted - 2009.06.17 19:06:00 - [58] Fixed typos and made the guide a little less hostile. Some still think there is some overkill but I am keeping it as is because the way it is written is the only way to give those that use it all of the information they could need. As will everything else in this game, you can feel free to ignore it. If it has a SAVE button...I'm not interested.
Herzog Wolfhammer	Posted - 2009.06.18 03:45:00 - [59] Edited by: Herzog Wolfhammer on 18/06/2009 03:49:42 Originally by: ArcDragon Edited by: ArcDragon on 17/06/2009 19:20:35 Fixed typos and made the guide a little less hostile. Some still think there is some overkill but I am keeping it as is because the way it is written is the only way to give those that use it all of the information they could need. As with everything else in this game, you can feel free to ignore it. Overkill on the skills? I came across a radar site that would not go above 75 percent - a hidden serpentis shipyard. Yes it was K-SPACE! And don't anyone tell me I can't scan, I got the BMs to prove it. As I write this I am doing SOE missions for the LPs to get better scanning gear. One more courier mission and I will be in a clock tower soon.
Reef Skywalker	Posted - 2009.06.20 15:43:00 - [60] Good guide. Make it better, don't waste energy on people that don't want to listen, they won't listen anyway. Use T2 frigs. If You dig, You can earn money for a fully fitted one in minutes. Sisters probes are cheap (like 5kk for a set?) and give +10% strength. Sisters launchers are expensive (like 40kk for a piece?) and give +5% strength. I don't use the Sisters launcher. Use T2 Gas Miners. As an exercise You can count how much You time/money You loose by not doing so (T1 takes about twice as long to do a given cloud). Please provide more info on tactical usage of bubbles in w-space. Also please provide an example POS fit (I am interested in the ratio of jammers, turrets and the carebear stuff).

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