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Guide: How to grind MD reputation like a pro

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Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.06.13 13:05:00 - [31] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Nope, it's Lui Kai yep... i never say anything smart in the lounge....
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.06.15 10:04:00 - [32] Addendum: On the field operativity The following is information rarely found in the stickies or not organized enough for a good grasp. Yet it's vital to know. If you are a perspective investee, you should also take in account that being honorable and honest is still not enough. The form you use to talk about your initiatives is important, it is your visit card. Even more important is the approach taken after the investment proposal has been posted. By being in position to ask for public money automatically makes you "weak" in the eyes of the other players. By being a new proponent, you have the additional burden and weakness at having to convince people about the validity of your project. You'll face three kinds of answers: 1) Trolls 2) Average investors 3) Senior investors Trolls are just that: people who will diss your project in any possible way (sometimes with vested interest, they may be involved in your same niche of yours). You have to act cool with them. 1) Answering flame with flame will flag YOU as not worthwhile not them. No proud or flamboyant or "at a tone" answer, this will make them achieve both their objectives: griefing you and making you bad in the eyes of the proper investors. Instead, give a dry answer, without sounding too much condescending. Believe me the trolls will keep spamming their stuff but none will care of them. 2) Average investors: they will ask some simple questions and will often be happy to invest as is. Those are the "easy bunch" but beware they are heavily influenced by reputed senior investors. A word off the latter and they will backtrack, so stay on your toes. 3) Senior investors / auditors: they'll directly address you with autority. If you have a dubious posting past, have been involved in characters trade, scams or are related with particular other characters they WILL find it out. Since everyone are heavily influenced by these voices, you must pay a lot of care that you answer in a non-emotional way. They WILL be call you in uncomfortable trials, but don't confuse them with the trolls. You are meant to answer with clarity and honesty to their inquiries as you are the one with everything to lose if you don't. If there are "dubious" past events you are meant to tell them in advance. You WILL be caught. If you are so good not to be caught, you are not reading this guide anyway. "Red and green flags". When you talk, when you post, when you do stuff in game... you are constantly monitored. Auditors and senior investors will dig in your past and find out that 2005 post where you said something "worrying". They will dig in the killboards to double check what you say. They will check for your past investments and your financial exposure. The results are usually posted as red or green flags. It's easy to get a red flag and you really want to avoid it.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.06.15 10:12:00 - [33] Few suggestions to avoid red flags Even if you are transparent like water, you are easily raising cautionary red flags in the eyes of the investors with your very words. First of all you must be clear, not ambiguous and disclose all what the senior investors and auditors can discover by themselves, which is an huge lot. Being called later for "why didn't you say you are an alt of that guy who was instrumental in that 2006 scam" is going to get your initiative killed before it even starts. You have to be warm at answering, cold at replying. Be educate and avoid retorts, long winded polemics, repeating how you are the most honest being ever created (BIG red flag). At the same time reply in a terse, to the point statement to those asking for factual numbers. Example of good answering: Cosmoray http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1093780 Quote: are shareholders compelled to sell you their shares? Or can they choose to not sell and keep being part of your company? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The fact is I have been running the business for a year. Keeping 8 T1 BS BPO's in constant circulation (24/7) is a grind and a lot of work. I want to move onto other things. The company has 16.9B in liquidatable assets (BPO's and minerals) and I am offering 17.6B. Example of red flags raising answers: Deitis Montage http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1090999 Quote: Q: Krathos Morpheus: "Audit?" A: I have read the the benefits of having an audit and the impacts this can have on investors making investments. However, I will not be requesting an Audit for various reasons. The main reason is that my current account is separated between 2 completely different characters (Deitis and a Pvp char) that have never crossed paths. Quote: I do not plan to use my assets AS collateral. I have 2-3 Bill in assets that I can sell -should the operation fail. No, no one cares your idea is the best thing since iced Quafe. They care of a realistic ROI. This also means a "no, I don't tell you what my NEW AND UNIQUE idea is about" approach will rarely work, because the investors want to know if your idea involves ships construction or T2 BPCs or T3 construction, whatever. This will also rise a big red flag. When you talk about asking for people's monies, also talk about your guarantee. For some, their name is plenty enough, but you are not one of them. That is, don't even bother setting up a bond / IPO if you can't secure some collateral. Collateral can be in the form of "pure money" given to a third, trusted party (ie locked by EBank), BPOs to lock (ie by Bad Bobby and others), goods to lock. In the latter, exactly like in real life, the goods to lock must be easily converted in liquidity. That is, don't try proposing for that "never gonna sell" stuff even with high nominal value because in case of your default, investors want to realize and sell fast. Finally, don't forget to mention auditing! Auditing is about a trusted person looking at your all accounts' characters' activity (you'll have to privately give him your >> full << API key and API user ID (not the log in name!)). Look at that person like it's a private detective, whose mission is to reveal the investors about your past activities and the ability to actually do what you claim. I.e. it's an HUGE red flag to propose a trade company if none of your accounts have any trade skill trained and the auditor will point out so:
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.06.15 10:17:00 - [34] Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 15/06/2009 10:20:15 Example: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1095081&page=2 Quote: Red flag that requires investee explaination: the proponent claims to start a trade venture and having a Jita alt, but the main character has majorly low trading skills (Trade being the one trained to 4, all the others just 1-2) and the Jita alt has exactly none at all Now, you may feel like this is a very intrusive action but you are also trying to "intrude" in investors' pockets yourself so one hand covers the other. If you want to raise green flags you are mean to ask for an audit since the original business statement. Needing to be kindly "reminded" you forgot to ask for an audit is annoying for the investors and will raise unwarranted polemics (and will be troll flame bait). Refusing to be audited is a massively huge red flag and almost an IPO / bond death sentence unless you are a years old universally trusted enterpreneur. Those accepting multiple audits get a nice carpet of green flags. Being an auditor is a very confidential and delicate job. Auditors come in several "flavours". There's the mega-super-duper universally trusted auditor who is so busy you won't be able to have an audit off him except for prohibitive price or wait time. There's the "relatively new yet known already" auditors that usually provide a very good bang for the buck. There's the new auditors (like me) that will try prove they are trustworthly and will go so far to offer you a free audit. Of course the more seasoned investors won't be convinced by this and will require another more trusted auditor to review the audits / provide for additional checks. Beware, if an auditor offers a free audit and you decline it, it will be a NASTY red flag. Finally, once the business has started, don't forget posting regular statements about the company progress. They build up on your reputation's record. If you get periodic or additional audits done (to prove you are working diligently and honestly) you'll be even more popular. Example: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1095081&page=2 Quote: New green flag, the investee accepted setting up collateral to a very trusted 3rd party. New green flag, the investee contacted me in game for optional, additional checks that he/she did not subtract capitals during the trading phase and before the dividends are paid. The end for now, will add more when I have the time to.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.06.15 10:20:00 - [35] Reserved
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.06.15 10:22:00 - [36] Reserved
Chantilly Layce	Posted - 2009.06.15 11:59:00 - [37] Auditors and corporate espionage? Nawwwwww.... could never happen in EvE.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.06.19 06:17:00 - [38] why no glue? reported.....

CCP Applebabe	Posted - 2009.06.19 08:27:00 - [39] Good work. Thread has been made sticky. Applebabe Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online Contact us

Caleb Ayrania Gallente TarNec Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.06.19 12:59:00 - [40] Hmm.. Now I am getting unsure whether OP made a really valuable post on conduct and presentation of the MD community, or if he made a perfect guide of dos and donts if you want to be a scammer. :) Still a nice piece, NOW with glue applied.. dont breathe the fumes though..
glas mir Reaction Scientific	Posted - 2009.06.19 18:42:00 - [41] seems accurate. The seemingly pointless bonds that the OPs could cover many times over with assets for the single purpose of "building rep" were not constructive.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.06.20 10:32:00 - [42] Originally by: CCP Applebabe Good work. Thread has been made sticky. great thanks :D
Gabriel Virtus hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.06.21 08:57:00 - [43] You should rename this... "How to scam for 10B within a couple months <3 V.V." -GV I know I am always full of constructive posts. You guys are welcome.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.06.21 11:07:00 - [44] Originally by: Gabriel Virtus You should rename this... "How to scam for 10B within a couple months <3 V.V." -GV I know I am always full of constructive posts. You guys are welcome. Your right tbh :D Though im sure the MD watchdogs will see through it... (sure might translate into hope :( )
Chantilly Layce	Posted - 2009.06.22 11:38:00 - [45] Originally by: Ji Sama Though im sure the MD watchdogs will see through it... (sure might translate into hope :( ) While I admire anyone who can pull off a massive "con job" a la "Ocean's 11" (from a purely RP'ing point of view because, hey, it's just a game) that's why it's called a "con job", Muffykins. The best scam is when the mark never even realizes he/she/it is being scammed. That's the beauty of the EvE Market forum, it's the RPG'ing con-man's virtual paradise. There is nothing better than OTHER PEOPLE'S MONEY. To all you aspiring investors out there -- Caveat Emptor -- and keep your friends close and your enemies closer.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.06.22 11:56:00 - [46] Quote: You should rename this... "How to scam for 10B within a couple months <3 V.V." -GV I know I am always full of constructive posts. You guys are welcome I don't know about your "constructive" intentions but you are easily pleased mate. First of all I would not bother with just 10B, actually I don't bother with any amount because it's not ISK what I play games for and scamming would exactly kill that reason. Quote: To all you aspiring investors out there -- Caveat Emptor -- and keep your friends close and your enemies closer. Also: Beware of the friends you believe to know more than the enemies you know.
CEOcat CAT Corp	Posted - 2009.06.22 17:25:00 - [47] Originally by: Krylon Rhae Just as in R/L... In real life you don't need a rep cause I assume you don't want to spend the rest of your life on the run for my **ty couple of thousand bucks. Obviously this idea has also spread to professional investors and million dollar investments which is pretty funny how ****ed people can be...
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.06.22 18:37:00 - [48] nice point cat TMPI
Gabriel Virtus hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.06.22 21:08:00 - [49] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Quote: You should rename this... "How to scam for 10B within a couple months <3 V.V." -GV I know I am always full of constructive posts. You guys are welcome I don't know about your "constructive" intentions but you are easily pleased mate. First of all I would not bother with just 10B, actually I don't bother with any amount because it's not ISK what I play games for and scamming would exactly kill that reason. I guess the sarcasm was lost on this one. And so is the temporal condition on my statement. Either way, it was sort of a joke... so laugh. -GV
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2009.06.23 11:04:00 - [50] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 23/06/2009 11:15:44 Originally by: Gabriel Virtus Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Quote: You should rename this... "How to scam for 10B within a couple months <3 V.V." -GV I know I am always full of constructive posts. You guys are welcome I don't know about your "constructive" intentions but you are easily pleased mate. First of all I would not bother with just 10B, actually I don't bother with any amount because it's not ISK what I play games for and scamming would exactly kill that reason. I guess the sarcasm was lost on this one. And so is the temporal condition on my statement. Either way, it was sort of a joke... so laugh. -GV He's a Riethe alt, part of an attempt to reenact the GHSC heist, with fewer actors. Of course that scamming kids in an internet game IS all he can think of. Like I said, delusion of grandeur and waste of time at its finest. One of these days I will compile a "trusted alts" list for the posterity, a case study, who knows, perhaps someone can figure out what his alts have in common. Black Sun Empire
Bangbroo TarNec New Eden Retail Federation	Posted - 2009.06.27 21:54:00 - [51] Hi Vaerah, even a total newb like me can understand the most of it! Good explanation and definitly worth the compliments! Good job!
Sir Elliot	Posted - 2009.07.06 00:40:00 - [52] Thread should not be given glue, it should be locked. The reality of this thread is that is a 'how to' guide on scamming. I know Vaerah didn't intend that (I had a long conversation about this topic w/ Vaerah that contributed significantly to the OP), but that's what it is. If mod feels it's noteworthy, put it as an edit in the resource thread.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.07.06 09:46:00 - [53] Quote: The reality of this thread is that is a 'how to' guide on scamming Have you read the text or just the (ironic) title? Because the text is like a Zen about going slow and gradually rise and earn a "place" after due time. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.07.06 11:26:00 - [54] More info at how to ask for public money and pitfalls to avoid Aka... rehashing known stuff once again. You are cool and nice and had that revolutionary idea no one in the universe had before you. But now, how to put that idea in practice? First of all, always recall that no one is due giving you a penny, expecially the first times. Moreover, if you fail both at proposing yourself or at achieving the stated growth, the investors will recall that for the years to come and sarcastic links to old IPO/bond launches will be provided. So, what to do not to be beaten to pulp and have your idea take off? 1) First of all, the idea has to work. Sounds silly to say but how many business proposal never started because they were just not thought well? Or they implied overly optimistic preconditions the veterans know that just won't happen? So, have a sound and working idea, an idea that works even in case its environment knows some stalemate, some drop in profitability and so on. 2) Make people an argument about their money not going poof in a second. That is, if you propose a freight service in low sec, be ready to demonstrate why you won't be popped in 10 minutes and lose everything. 3) Use the premade templates as inspiration not as copy and paste. Hexxx made those templates to suggest a direction, not to give a formulary to paste with half the titles still pointing at it being a demo. If you only give 5 minutes of effort, investors will rate you as poor and careless investee who did not even bother to pour a bit of yourself in your plan. 4) Know what the hell you are talking about. This applies both to the business proposed (ie don't talk about "I will train T2 manufacturing and get rich and share money" as you prove to be clueless) and to the form used. If you start with "this is an IPO with no shares and at the end I'll pay investors their principal..." it looks like you were actually talking about a bond in a nice show of confusion that will drive investors away. 5) Use Wikipedia. Don't know what IPO means? Don't be a nutcase and ask on MD. None will do the menial tasks and much less play secretary / dictionary for you now that the basics are covered by dozens of FAQs and sticked threads. Do your homework and read them or search for them with Wikipedia. Else you really look like a clueless noob, not worth investing 1 ISK with. 6) IPO or bond? If you are reading this odd guide, chances are you really want to propose a bond. IPOs are cumbersome, require substantial effort and reporting. It's better to leave them for when you are accustomed at bonds and investors know you enough to trust you in an IPO. 7) Don't be a dork. Investors are often of the inquisitive and diffident type. You WILL be put on trial. You WILL be questioned. You WILL be put in doubt. You WILL be smack talked. It's more than free abuse on you, it's also a trial of solidness of you against the difficulties. Answer in a clear, dry, educate way and without rants and you'll be golden. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.07.06 11:38:00 - [55] 8) Size matters. You are not going to budge anyone for a 100M IPO. Investors are often those so advanced in end game to have "problems at stuffing money somewhere", that is they reached and passed the thresold where grinding money i.e. by trading drops in efficiency or can't scale well any more for a lone individual. So, you have to find a sweet spot. Leave IPOs out of the scene. Start with a sub 1B bond and fulfill it nicely and paying well and on time. NEVER EVER remind people how you are doing it "to farm rep, so next time I can escalate to a bigger bond". Because you'll switch on all the Ponzi schemes, all the scam alert signals in the investors heads and you'll be buried in flames. After all, if you play poker, are you going out and shout "HEY I GOT 4 ACES" or will you get the others to put more on the platter so you can smash them harder later? Basically don't just be an e-peen farmer, there's plenty of dedicated forums for that kind. Here's the place to conduct business and eventually dangle your appendage LATER. 9) Don't be overly secretive. There's really little you could hide from people whose job is to invest billions every day. On the contrary, start an "Discussion" thread well before you make your proposal. In that thread you may hint at your project and ask for a discussion. In doubt refer to Bad Bobby's work to see how it's done: Discussion => http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1101208 Actual IPO => http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1106485 Remember to put realistic and achievable dates both for investors to reserve shares / bonds and to send money. 10) Get a damn audit done. I know I am an auditor (a green one at that) so I am interested. I also know that an auditor is just as meaningful as his trustworthiness is. But that's not for you the new, perspective investee to "bother". The very act of being available to be checked out is usually one of the final enabler triggers to have the business roll. Despite the many flaws, despite the deep lack of game provided tools, a decent audit can still spot an host of valuable information and is actually more useful than the alternative (that is, blind trust). A cool feature is when you present proposal and then, before the reservations take place, you get the audit done in advance, without a need for investors to punch you about it. 11) NEVER, N E V E R, NNEEVVEERR say you are making the new business proposal "to get known", "to raise my reputation", "for fun". These are catchphrases for fail. To investors, the former are basically as hideous as sand in the eyes, the later is vastly irrelevant to why they will invest in you. 12) Recall that investors are inquisitive and worrysome when someone else is using their billions. Don't disappear without a trace (unless you were out to scam of course!). Have periodic reports off yours and eventually off the auditor to confirm your claims and progress (also, tell the auditor about this reports plan of yours). 13) If possible, once you are done, don't immediately start a bigger venture. It reeks of stepping stone investments made up to build a ladder ending in a big multi-billionaire scam. Investors really hate to see that. 14) If something goes wrong, and you care for your reputation, openly state about it. Lost the freigther that was an important asset to your capitals bond? Don't disappear or hide it, it'll come out in due time and you'll lose any credibility. Just state about the loss, take the hit (they won't condone your mistakes so easily) like a man and go ahead. There's a number of investees who defaulted, lost money, lost assets thru the years and still manage to get new IPOs / bonds running because they proved to have balls of steel when things turned sour. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.07.06 11:40:00 - [56] 15) Don't give up. After all, you are to achieve the hardest feat: to convince people who spent years in building up a fortune, to give it to an unknown, in a game with no safety and where scamming is allowed. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Yendor Widdershins Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2009.07.14 14:48:00 - [57] Nice post and good information in the thread. Consider this a "please re-sticky" bump.
Dzil Caldari StrwBerry Pancakes	Posted - 2009.07.14 14:54:00 - [58] I'd prefer we let this fall - it's had its time at the top for a while. If this information is truly invaluable, please consider helping get it added to the evelopedia wiki instead. Or linked to as a guide in the market resources thread. ---------------------- Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m for 7+ standings ----------------------
kano donn	Posted - 2009.07.14 20:50:00 - [59] ... 0_0 so... im very new to the market and in eve am mostly a pvp person. from reading this and the reactions, i gather that a big part of eve is in out of game lending so someone may produce goods at a huge profit.... now i understand that i am missing much more of this. anyone able to fill me in?
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.07.15 16:58:00 - [60] This guide is now linked in the Evelopedia at: http://wiki.eveonline.com/wiki/Market_%28Useful_threads%29 - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz

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