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Gabriel Theodoulos
Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard
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Posted - 2009.06.14 14:54:00 -
[1]
Ok, ok .... I don't have to tell you how CCP is keeping their cards close to their chest. For years, they have talked about Ambulation (aka Walking in Stations or WiS) and they have tantalized us with juicy sneek peeks of what they can do on the development end. But the question always begs, "why don't they bring out WiS?"
This morning, my two boys and I discussed the matter (yeh, my whole family are EVE addicts) and we think we have grasped the reason why we will not see WiS for a while, and it's due to technology.
The following is our family's prediction for EVE Online's Ambulation: CCP will not introduce WiS until it is practicably possible to skin ships.
Why do we say that? It all has to do with bandwidth and storage capacity.
When you first get on EVE (or it crashes and you clear the cache), all of your pictures disappear. Remember? You have to click on each and every little picture and download them to you client. Once there, you now can see the picture whenever they are needed, but the initial stage doesn't have their picture loaded.
Now, ask yourself this question, "How long does it take to download that little image?" 1 second? 2 seconds? Sometimes it takes even longer. Now imagine you having to download the skin of that character? If you have a good Internet pipe coming into your computer, it might take you 5-10 seconds for each skin. If you have 20-50 characters in Local (which is not unreasonable) it is going to take you quite a while for all of their skins to download. And storage? Little pictures are not hard to store, but the skins of thousands of players will be serious hard drive space!
This is the reason why CCP doesn't bring out customized ship skins and this is why they also will not bring out Ambulation.
So.... now that we (or at least the Hall family) have dragged out our thoughts on why CCP won't bring out WiS, when do we think they will?
CCP will bring out WiS (and customizable ship skins) when the average bandwidth coming into the average home is large enough to download the skins without noticeable difference in gameplay. I see a time when the average (and yes, I mean average) home has a 15-30Meg pipe and the hard drives are (on the average) measured in terabytes (or petabytes). When that happens they will bring out Ambulation (and not far behind will come customizable ship skins).
To be honest, WiS sounds cool, but I really look forward to being able to customize my ships! To have the Roman Eagle of 1PG on the bow of my Prophecy would be awesome!
... well, that's my opinion anyways. |
Valandril
Caldari Ex-Mortis
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Posted - 2009.06.14 14:57:00 -
[2]
Your point beeing ? Because i've seem to missed it. |
Gabriel Theodoulos
Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard
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Posted - 2009.06.14 14:58:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Valandril Your point beeing ? Because i've seem to missed it.
Don't hold yer breathe for Wis!
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Valandril
Caldari Ex-Mortis
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Posted - 2009.06.14 15:07:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Gabriel Theodoulos
Originally by: Valandril Your point beeing ? Because i've seem to missed it.
Don't hold yer breathe for Wis!
And what kind of feature is that ? |
Xailz
Godless Horizon.
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Posted - 2009.06.14 15:38:00 -
[5]
Actually
Correct me if I'm wrong but there is a preset selection of Toon Skins / styles
So the most you'll be downloading is:- What face? A What Suit? B etc. things like Second Life do it (Which are horrible programs) so i think our horrible client will handle it
So really it is all down to your PC not downloading anything; the portraits are just screenshots of your Char Creation screen so they have to be saved on the Server
The only reason i can see for them not bringing it out is quite simple: not many people actually want it (I know i don't)
Xz |
Hariya
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Posted - 2009.06.14 15:42:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Xailz
The only reason i can see for them not bringing it out is quite simple: not many people actually want it (I know i don't)
That and the fact that they have not yet probably sorted out how to implement the PVP in stations. (Especially the must-have suicide ganks.) |
Tarron Sarek
Gallente Biotronics Inc. Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2009.06.14 16:13:00 -
[7]
Wrong part of the forum ->>> General Discussion |
Atraxerxes
Caldari 22nd Black Rise Defensive Unit
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Posted - 2009.06.14 16:28:00 -
[8]
Wrong Forum
Please move
Bur while I'm here. WiS won't happen until CCP actually fixes things like docking in the station after you came out of warp. Not to mention, the only good reason I've heard for ambulation is to help entice more WoW players to subscribe to EVE. So ask yourself; Do you and your family really want to keep playing a game that has to many unfinished expansions already only to get another and on top of that more former WoW players?
As far as ship skins go, it's the most pointless idea ever. Do I really care if a noob is flying in a "hello kitty" kestrel? I can barely see the brackets sometimes, let alone the ships. So giving them skins would be pointless for most pilots as they rarely look that closely at other's ships.
AX
EVE's #1 (full length) podcast "Fly Reckless"
Fly Reckless
Voted "Best New Comer" EON Magazine 2009. Listen to it today |
Abuta Beki
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Posted - 2009.06.15 00:37:00 -
[9]
It is impressive how little some people understand of game design, game engines, meshes and textures.
Individual ship skins and textures are equally easy to implement without any relevant lag as individual character avatars are. Even the thought that it could be any different is a joke, because it is done and done and done and done for years already.
Just because you don't have the slightest clue of game engines and general 3d stuff does not mean that CCP does not have a clue, too.
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Ashley Thomas
Veneratio Venator Alliance
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Posted - 2009.06.15 01:04:00 -
[10]
OP does have a very good point...
jita would really turn into a black hole
Veritatum Cognoscere |
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Total Disaster
Caldari Frontier Industry
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Posted - 2009.06.15 08:33:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Total Disaster on 15/06/2009 08:34:49 Didn't CCP stated already that WiS won't be available in all stations?
so I'm pretty sure that Jita won't get any WiS Stations if it might overload the systems.
P.S.
if they only send the avatars attributes and not any texture, then the client will generate the model himself. No need for big data transfers |
Navtiqes
Space Sheriff
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Posted - 2009.06.15 08:39:00 -
[12]
Cause they're still deciding on how the WiS quicktime events should be?
Press X to not die!
Too slow. |
Fi Vantage
Minmatar Kha'rific-Mintor Outriders.
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Posted - 2009.06.15 08:45:00 -
[13]
It has to happen by early 2010!
Because according to this, "Ambulation...will be the technology foundation for the World of Darkness character system."
It also says that "CCP is working on new projects, the largest of which is World of Darkness, an MMOG that is scheduled to launch 2010."
They'll have to create it sometime before WoD's release. Say when it's 50% complete. So I say early 2010. |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
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Posted - 2009.06.15 08:56:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Destination SkillQueue on 15/06/2009 08:56:41
Originally by: Total Disaster Edited by: Total Disaster on 15/06/2009 08:34:49 Didn't CCP stated already that WiS won't be available in all stations?
so I'm pretty sure that Jita won't get any WiS Stations if it might overload the systems.
Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia
When was it said, where and by who? I remember a time when we were unsure if every station would have WiS but this could be a looong time ago. From what I recall we couldn¦t come up with a good reason to prenerf it from our side.
The more popular a station is, the more expensive it will be to start a new bar or any other venture. We expect that this will limit the amount of ventures somewhat and we do expect that popular stations will be more frequented since there are a lot of people there anyway.
We don¦t want to prenerf WiS by allowing in selective stations only. We would make supply scarce but that should be something that could better regulated by players, we give the tools and you can decide how to use them and whether you want a bar desperately enough that it might not be profitable at all.
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Serpents smile
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Posted - 2009.06.15 09:20:00 -
[15]
WiS will happen when the majority of EVE players is willing to dump that stoneage old craptop and replace it with one that can run ShaderModel 3. |
Nova Fox
Gallente Novafox Shipyards
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Posted - 2009.06.15 09:21:00 -
[16]
The reason why Walking in stations is not out now is because there arent a whole lot of developers working on it. |
Doomed Predator
The Graduates Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.06.15 09:26:00 -
[17]
Did all the march dudes(boxxies) discover WiS and now feel an urge to post or what? It's probably a few topics per day with WiS this and that. It'll soon(TM) The 'Fendahlian Collective' strikes again |
Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2009.06.15 09:33:00 -
[18]
Procedural textures -> infinite detail, only few kb big
With procedural general (textures, objects etc.) you can get extremly high details, they scale as much as you want without any loss of quality and are only few kb big.
But of course if you cling to the old and outdated pre-manufactured details which are so clumsy and tens of mb big, then you won't go anywhere soon.
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TedJanitor
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Posted - 2009.06.15 10:50:00 -
[19]
Edited by: TedJanitor on 15/06/2009 10:50:51 Bear in mind our character faces are quite comlicated things, with many little factors, And it would be unreasonable to expect the same level in a 3 dimensional function, and instead the game can use a more efficient method, one of a limited set of parameters with which to skin.
This would work by having a number of variables which could be altered, each having nothing to do with another, and the game having a storage somewhere full of these, so it would be able to manage a much faster render in the skins - this is in a way the premise which is the difference between a set of instructions on how to paint a picture, and the picture itself - you'll find the former much less data intensive - this does the eve clients job of helping to work for CCP, so they have to handle less data.
As to skinning ships, the same idea can be applied - I'm not sure about emblems and other decals like that, but the idea of a small set of skins which can be applied to areas of a ship could work - but also consider gameplay factors, the fact that t2 ships, which are often distictively coloured might lose they're individuality, because you must remember that t2 gear isn't just better, it's a status symbol too.
Anyway, that's just me thinking of how to help solve your problem with wis.
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Midge Mo'yb
Antares Shipyards Hoodlums Associates
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Posted - 2009.06.15 10:58:00 -
[20]
i was always under the impression that the pictures/icons/portraits were rendered localy. |
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TedJanitor
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Posted - 2009.06.15 11:05:00 -
[21]
Are they? Well there goes my idea... Still, simpler skins could work too - and if they are rendered locally, they're a pretty good render |
Armoured C
Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Aggression.
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Posted - 2009.06.15 11:10:00 -
[22]
i believe we will be seeing it soonÖ
not this expansion but next one
as it was only in alpha at FF |
threeDspider
Caldari Caldari and United Breweries The Firm.
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Posted - 2009.06.15 11:14:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Abuta Beki It is impressive how little some people understand of game design, game engines, meshes and textures.
This tbh |
Gibbo5771
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Posted - 2009.06.15 11:18:00 -
[24]
In my opinion, walking in stations an all that jazz were there original ideas, but they needed some guinea pigs to test there half programmed/developed server/client and bit of more than they could chew so got all these bugs, half finished things in the game and while they were at it, make some money on the way
But then thats sorta like GTA, from GTA3-San Andreas were just small builds from the big one that hit in 2008 GTA4(Pc Version).
So I think this is how CCP operated, I prob just stated the obvious
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Chantilly Layce
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Posted - 2009.06.15 11:20:00 -
[25]
I have to say I'm in the "Not holding my Breath" camp on this one.
Impressive as CCP's game technology is, and kudos by the freighter-load for what CCP [usually - <grin> ] accomplishes with each Release, I think that WiS will be such a huge leap forward in their game tech that I can wait another year or two for CCP to buff and polish WiS all they damn well want to.
WiS will be the release that CCP should have called "Quantum Rise"... because it will be.
Besides, I need more time to afford a new PC anyway, so please, CCP, take your time
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Dariah Stardweller
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Posted - 2009.06.15 11:20:00 -
[26]
I'd rather they fixed their coding b4 releasing yet another (pointless) expansion.
Bugs that are multiple years old are not being dealt with but they do want to implement WiS? *shakes head
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Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.06.15 11:55:00 -
[27]
I preferred the theory about the bureaucratic problems the aliens have encountered when trying to transfer the WiS source code to CCP.
It made more sense than the OP, and was more believable. |
Sader Rykane
Amarr Midnight Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.06.15 11:58:00 -
[28]
If this were the way that skins are actually loaded, care to explain why we have so many texture files / models stores locally on our computers? If we're just constantly downloading (and presumably trashing) texture files throughout our gameplay then wouldnt the client only be like 10 MBs?
I'm surprised that atleast one of you three couldn't figure that out during your little "discussion". |
Imiarr Timshae
Caldari Funny Men In Funny Hats
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Posted - 2009.06.15 12:13:00 -
[29]
Good post OP. The only correction I have is that the amount of people in local will not mean downloading their skins, as the people who know that WiS it useless fluff will not use this feature, and thus will not have to load other peoples skins unless we actually enter the stations and walk around. |
Jim Hazard
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Posted - 2009.06.15 12:17:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Jim Hazard on 15/06/2009 12:20:53
Originally by: Gabriel Theodoulos
Why do we say that? It all has to do with bandwidth and storage capacity.
When you first get on EVE (or it crashes and you clear the cache), all of your pictures disappear. Remember? You have to click on each and every little picture and download them to you client. Once there, you now can see the picture whenever they are needed, but the initial stage doesn't have their picture loaded.
So you think its not possible to store a preset of character textures on your local HDD? It works in any other game.. why would it be a problem for ambulation? Does not really make much sense tbh.
Originally by: Gabriel Theodoulos
Now, ask yourself this question, "How long does it take to download that little image?" 1 second? 2 seconds? Sometimes it takes even longer. Now imagine you having to download the skin of that character? If you have a good Internet pipe coming into your computer, it might take you 5-10 seconds for each skin. If you have 20-50 characters in Local (which is not unreasonable) it is going to take you quite a while for all of their skins to download. And storage? Little pictures are not hard to store, but the skins of thousands of players will be serious hard drive space!
Stuff like player faces and so on can be generated locally.... your PC just needs to use the same info as the character editor, which is just a few numbers which tells your PC, the attributes for your body, face and so on. (basically just a few bit)
Originally by: Gabriel Theodoulos
This is the reason why CCP doesn't bring out customized ship skins and this is why they also will not bring out Ambulation.
It¦s true that a complete customization would cause a lot of traffic, but i d rather expect ccp not to allow total customization just as it is with spaceships. If i remember correctly ccp is not planning to let us paint our ships or anything like that, they just thought about giving us the option to display corp and alliance logos on the hulls.
Originally by: Gabriel Theodoulos
So.... now that we (or at least the Hall family) have dragged out our thoughts on why CCP won't bring out WiS, when do we think they will?
CCP will bring out WiS (and customizable ship skins) when the average bandwidth coming into the average home is large enough to download the skins without noticeable difference in gameplay. I see a time when the average (and yes, I mean average) home has a 15-30Meg pipe and the hard drives are (on the average) measured in terabytes (or petabytes). When that happens they will bring out Ambulation (and not far behind will come customizable ship skins).
Bandwith of the players is not an issue at all.. did you ever check how much bandwith eve or any other online game needs? its nothing.. In times where no1 really is using a 56k modem anymore that is not an issue (increased load on the server is a different story).
My speculation: CCP is trying to get as much as possible out of their engine b4 bringing out ambulation as they at least were planning to use the engine for World of Darkness - Online as well. Since CCP is "laser focused" on eve, WOD surely will be released later so I would also use some more time to work on the engine, since no1 wants to release a new game with totally outdated graphics.
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