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Aristok Sol'Khal	Posted - 2009.06.23 15:01:00 - [1] I ask this question in the science and industry forum, as likely many of you have thought about this. I'm debating between a deep-space transport and a blockade runner for high-sec transportation of medium volume (1000m3-5000m3), high-value (50m-500m) cargo. Both of these ship classes have their own advantages, and I'm looking for some experienced opinions on which should be favored. In my considerations, I have assumed the following configurations: Deep-space transport (Occator): 800mm plate, tons of hardeners, DC, trimarks. SETUP: Roughly 100k effective HP with uniform damage distro, but resists favoring EM,Therm, and Kin damage (most likely damage type in a suicide gank?). STRATEGY: Assuming 20 seconds before Concord arrives, it should outlast all but the largest gank-fleets. 100k effective HP/20s = 5000 DPS = 7-9 Brutix. No plan to run, because no amount MWD or stab will save me. Its all armor or death. Blockade runner (Viator): 2 stabs, 1 istab, 2x agility rigs, covops cloak. SETUP: Calculated align time at 4ish seconds. Warps cloaked. STRATEGY: Enough stab to neutralize 1 or 2 frigs with SeBo. Must avoid tackle only long enough to engage cloak. If I'm tackled its all over. Stealthier.. less people see me. May be vulnerable when undocking at Jita 4-4, Amarr, or Rens. Any thoughts guys?
Remus Kurgan Caldari	Posted - 2009.06.23 15:12:00 - [2] I would suggest, if you do not play to haul more than 5-6k worth of goods, go with a Blockade runner. First of all, with the Cov Ops cloak, it's near invincible and near impossible to catch in either hi sec or low sec. Second, it has a much faster align time than a Deep Space transport. Your warp time will be faster too, so longer trips will go by fairly quickly. Keep in mind with tanks that if you're in hi sec, you don't need to be cap stable, just have enough booster or armor repair to keep you alive to jump back through the last gate, and enough MWD burn to get you there. But, in either case, you should be able to cloak while aligning, so no one will see you all the same.
H3llHound Blacksteel Mining and Manufacturing	Posted - 2009.06.23 16:11:00 - [3] With such low volumes id rather get the blockade runner, the most important points hav been mentioned already. Maybe but your stuff in GSC with password. This way the gankers wont hav much profit ganking u. As goes for jita, try and get a bm from which u can instawarp after undocking.
pyus	Posted - 2009.06.23 16:25:00 - [4] Oh, this is easy. Blockade Runner: 1) Warps faster 2) Way more velocity 3) Much faster algin time 4) Cheaper 5) Can easily hold 5000m3 6) Cov-ops cloak I've been flying my Crane around for nearly a year now and love it. BR's are pretty much sports-cars with plenty of cargo. Cov-ops cloak addition last fall made an already amazing ship nearly un-touchable. Don't bother with the deep-space version unless you really need the extra cargo. I regularly autopilot my Crane on the high-sec trip between Jita and Rens with 150mil or so in cargo. Unlimited value cargo if I'm actively piloting it. For low-sec I'm a frequent flyer of the Jita>Rens low-sec route (making a couple trips a week) Thing to watch out for here are the gangs of smart-bombing BS's frequently in Rancer system - un-docking in Jita is pffft compared to this. For my setup I have Mids: 2x Invuls, 1x 10mn-MWD, 1x Medium shield extender (always been more than enough tank for Rancer). Lows: 1x Inertia Stab, 1x WCS (might argue that a DCU or another inertia stab would be better depending on the situation). Ship is already pretty well tanked for the damages you're most likely to incur (Therm/Kin) Maybe boost EM depending on the ship. Can't remember the trip times exactly, but I think Jita>Rens (high-sec) on AP is around 50min, active pilot is around 30min, Jita>Rens low-sec route is around 15 min. For a deep-space ship double/tripple all those times not to mention it's so easy to catch one. High-sec gankings rarely happen unless you're on AP and really asking for it. It's not an invisible setup, but I'm a pretty impatient person and would much rather take a small risk on 300 mil or so in cargo than wait on a slower ship to do the job. On a more embarassing note, I've lost 4 of these babies due to being lazy, careless, or clueless. Once forgot to set auto-pilot back to high-sec route (AP through Rancer is not recommended). Twice to faction navy shootings upon accidental AP trips through faction space when I had low-standings (now I'm all slick and have diplomacy skilled trained to 2). And once to a 0.0 bubble in curse region when I forgot to turn on the cov-ops cloak. Like I said, I'm impatient, I like to travel a lot and can't be bothered with details. In spite of the losses (which can't be blamed on the ship) I've still made billions flying this ship.
Aristok Sol'Khal	Posted - 2009.06.23 16:29:00 - [5] Edited by: Aristok Sol''Khal on 23/06/2009 16:35:05 Thanks for the amazing input, Gentlemen. I'm starting to agree with this reasoning. I already own an occator, but may keep that on hand when I simply need the extra cargo space. Can't wait to get home and try out the viator. Does anyone have any tips to reduce the duration of the window within which the ship is vulnerable (i.e., after clicking warp to [object] and before cloak engages)?
Breaker77 Reclamation Industries New Eden Research	Posted - 2009.06.23 16:41:00 - [6] Originally by: Aristok Sol'Khal Does anyone have any tips to reduce the duration of the window within which the ship is vulnerable (i.e., after clicking warp to [object] and before cloak engages)? Click warp to 0 then start pressing the hotkey for the cloak module until it comes on.
Ash Naseen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2009.06.25 00:10:00 - [7] Originally by: Aristok Sol'Khal Does anyone have any tips to reduce the duration of the window within which the ship is vulnerable (i.e., after clicking warp to [object] and before cloak engages)? I have inertia stabs on my prowler and it enters in warp even before the gate cloak to wear off. The align time is similar to the interceptor one.
Tasko Pal THE IRIS Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.06.25 04:23:00 - [8] OTOH, the occator should be good for autopiloting a few hundred mil. Put in stupid amounts of armor and shield hp, an explosive resist, and it should price well compared to a freighter or orca.
Tesal	Posted - 2009.06.25 05:29:00 - [9] Edited by: Tesal on 25/06/2009 05:33:54 Its been reported that the corp hangar on an orca obscures anyone from seeing what is iniside with scans and if they attack it, the contents will all be destroyed. Maybe try that. As far as suicide ganking, it is simple math, you need more tank than the value of your cargo against the DPS priced for the value of the attacking ships and add a premium for the amount of coordination it takes to do a gank. I have watched both the Viator and Occator get ganked on separate occasions in one of the ganking systems, I think Sivala or Eudama, as I flew by. They are not safe for afk transport if the value of the cargo is high enough. If people can gank deadspace fitted Nighthawks and CNR, they can kill your Occator and Viator. Anecdotally for afk travel, a freighter is safe usually up to 2 or maybe 3 billion isk. An Iteron V is usually safe up to 150 to 200 million isk. I would put a Viator at about 250 million maybe, an Occator at about 500 million maybe. When you exceed safety limits you need to fly gate to gate and rely on speed or stealth for security. Obviously an Occator or freighter are the last choice for that. For running errands, I much prefer the viator, its speed is very convenient, and it has the best low sec and 0.0 security in case you need to wander outside of empire. It can also carry a large tower if you need to and supposedly can jump bridge with a black ops (have never tried that so dunno how that all works tbh). Also realize that not all gankers can do math. They may mistake your BPC for BPO and kill you by accident. I have been shot into structure with an empty cargo hold before too.
Tesal	Posted - 2009.06.25 05:30:00 - [10] Originally by: H3llHound With such low volumes id rather get the blockade runner, the most important points hav been mentioned already. Maybe but your stuff in GSC with password. This way the gankers wont hav much profit ganking u. As goes for jita, try and get a bm from which u can instawarp after undocking. GSC won't stop you from getting ganked.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.06.25 10:01:00 - [11] Quote: An Iteron V is usually safe up to 150 to 200 million isk No way. I'd consider it gankable for < 40M and some for 25M. Also, I strongly advise against heavy plating. You are NOT going to survive whatever plate you put up, those who gank you live on that and are not idiots.
RaTTuS BIG Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2009.06.25 11:06:00 - [12] Originally by: H3llHound With such low volumes id rather get the blockade runner, the most important points hav been mentioned already. Maybe but your stuff in GSC with password. This way the gankers wont hav much profit ganking u. As goes for jita, try and get a bm from which u can instawarp after undocking. GSC will not help - can be scooped and then re-packaged in hanger Jita undock BM is easy - warp to that planet in front of you and drop one on the way
Iece Quaan Caldari Utopian Research I.E.L. Hedonistic Imperative	Posted - 2009.06.25 13:43:00 - [13] You can enter cloak the instant after you click the option to warp wherever you're going. Click through the warp menu, position cursor over 'Warp to 0' and get ready to press F1. Click > Press, you don't even have to wait for her to say "WDA" for this to work. The less time you have on overview, the less time for someone to lock =)
Ana Vyr	Posted - 2009.06.25 16:39:00 - [14] I've flown my Blockade Runner through some pretty serious camps. So far I've only ever lost one...got decloaked on a 0.0 bubble camp...I had a MWD fitted and was scrambled...had I fit an AB, I may have made it to the gate (probably not though). At any rate, they are pretty fun to fly for a hauler.
Vasundhara	Posted - 2009.06.25 18:31:00 - [15] Originally by: RaTTuS Originally by: H3llHound With such low volumes id rather get the blockade runner, the most important points hav been mentioned already. Maybe but your stuff in GSC with password. This way the gankers wont hav much profit ganking u. As goes for jita, try and get a bm from which u can instawarp after undocking. GSC will not help - can be scooped and then re-packaged in hanger Jita undock BM is easy - warp to that planet in front of you and drop one on the way What if you deployed the GSC when you first get locked or shot at (assuming you don't get one-shotted)? Or is that what you are referring to? I'm not highly familiar with the mechanics of password protected GSCs.
Steve Cain Guardians of the Void Irano Research Alliance	Posted - 2009.06.25 18:54:00 - [16] How about an Orca? 40,000 m3 of unscannable cargospace from the Corp hangers.
Iece Quaan Caldari Utopian Research I.E.L. Hedonistic Imperative	Posted - 2009.06.25 19:17:00 - [17] Originally by: Vasundhara What if you deployed the GSC when you first get locked or shot at (assuming you don't get one-shotted)? Or is that what you are referring to? I'm not highly familiar with the mechanics of password protected GSCs. More than likely won't work, you will probably be too close to something ( or some object ) to launch the GSC.
Joe Starbreaker The Fighting Republicans	Posted - 2009.06.25 19:17:00 - [18] Blockade runner is best, and fun to fly. You might also use a covert ops if there are a few particularly small things making up the core of that 500m-isk cargo. -//-
Vasundhara	Posted - 2009.06.25 22:15:00 - [19] Originally by: Iece Quaan Originally by: Vasundhara What if you deployed the GSC when you first get locked or shot at (assuming you don't get one-shotted)? Or is that what you are referring to? I'm not highly familiar with the mechanics of password protected GSCs. More than likely won't work, you will probably be too close to something ( or some object ) to launch the GSC. A good point, but the scheme is already not foolproof due to the chance of getting one-shotted or lagging out and soforth. My question is that, assuming it was sucessfully deployed, would there be a way for anyone without the password to access it? If the idea works at all, it would be worth keeping the highest value items in a single GSC to attempt to bail should things go awry. I suppose if it is the case that the random jump-in point is always too close to the gate to deploy a can then the idea is mostly worthless but I'm still interested to know the mechanics of the GSC itself.
Gavin DeVries	Posted - 2009.06.26 01:00:00 - [20] Secure containers take 60 seconds to anchor. Up until that time anyone can scoop them, and the password won't protect it.
Baka Lakadaka Gallente Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2009.06.26 02:35:00 - [21] Originally by: Vasundhara Originally by: Iece Quaan Originally by: Vasundhara What if you deployed the GSC when you first get locked or shot at (assuming you don't get one-shotted)? Or is that what you are referring to? I'm not highly familiar with the mechanics of password protected GSCs. More than likely won't work, you will probably be too close to something ( or some object ) to launch the GSC. A good point, but the scheme is already not foolproof due to the chance of getting one-shotted or lagging out and soforth. My question is that, assuming it was sucessfully deployed, would there be a way for anyone without the password to access it? If the idea works at all, it would be worth keeping the highest value items in a single GSC to attempt to bail should things go awry. I suppose if it is the case that the random jump-in point is always too close to the gate to deploy a can then the idea is mostly worthless but I'm still interested to know the mechanics of the GSC itself. The GSC would have to be ANCHORED for the password to have any use. Do you really think you're going to get a GSC ejected, anchored and passworded in time? Even if by some miracle, you managed it, there's a GSC sitting in space that they just know you're going to return to, so as soon as you come in to collect your gear, they'll gank you and take your stuff (not to mention you've lost a second ship).
Moose Balzak	Posted - 2009.06.26 11:08:00 - [22] Orca. FTW
yani dumyat Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.06.26 12:56:00 - [23] It costs about 35 mill after insurance to put together a suicide torp raven with volley damage of 4000 to 5000 depending on skills and fitting, 4700 volley damage with faction torps on the setup i used. The badger in the following example had an EHP of about 3500. In a 0.5 system i destroyed a lightly tanked badger in 2 shots and had time to get another 2 shots off at a passing cruiser before concord chewed through my tank so a bit less than half that volley damage was actually being applied to the hauler due to explosion radius / velocity. If we take conservative figures then i can get 2000 applied volley damage and at least 3 volleys off at a 0.5 gate so my cost is 35 mill per 6000 EHP on the hauler being ganked. By using smart bombs, turret ships or battlecruisers you can probably get a better ratio of isk to applied damage especially if you are ganking in numbers (plate fit thorax anyone?). So as a ganker what does my industrial toon use to transport stuff in empire? Whatever gets the job done fastest Smartie proofed frigates and matari transports are favorite due to speed and omni shield tanks. Sig_________________________________________________________________________________ My alliance, corp, psychiatrist and parole officer claim no responsibility for my actions on these forums.
beor oranes Caldari The Capitalist Protectorate	Posted - 2009.06.26 13:51:00 - [24] Edited by: beor oranes on 26/06/2009 13:52:12 To be honest as long as you are not afk hauling (freighter ftw) and you are not at war I've never seen the need to use anything but a Itty 5 or Badger MK 2. Using cans, with I-stabs in the lows (and cargo expanders in the hold if I need to more more). WTZ means they have to be quick to catch you and if you use a couple of routes to and from your base to where you sell and don't move at the same time at the same time every day, you won't need to spend all that isk on a Transport Ship. I think its more about being smart than throwing isk at it.
Ghoest	Posted - 2009.06.26 21:33:00 - [25] Dont go afk through Sivala, no matter what your flying.
Illectroculus Defined	Posted - 2009.06.26 23:37:00 - [26] So far I've saved my blockade runner, I do a lot of flying in 0.0, and with 2 stabs even if a ship gets a lock I'm usually fine. I had one case where 2 frigates locked me with disruptors and I had to resort to my last hope of escape, An ECM Burst II which was able to break one of the locks and let me escape. THe odds of that helping aren't good, and you basicly get one shot at it, but I can't think of any other modules that would help in that situation. (and if you do escape you have to remember you now have aggro and can't jump or dock for a minute of so)
Tres Farmer Gallente Federation Intelligence Service	Posted - 2009.06.27 10:10:00 - [27] Originally by: Aristok Sol'Khal .. I'm debating between a deep-space transport and a blockade runner for high-sec transportation of medium volume (1000m3-5000m3), high-value (50m-500m) cargo. .. I fly a Viator for this since 2 years through low/high sec and only got killed once in null sec in a bubble, cause I dumbass warped in direct line from station to the gate Originally by: Aristok Sol'Khal Blockade runner (Viator): 2 stabs, 1 istab, ... STOP. The survivability of a BR depends to 100% on its warpedcloack + fast alignment.. forget I-stabs. They don't help you on this one. So, fit it FAST and AGILE and sacrifice only as much as needed for your cargo and keep the sig radius LOW. Thus my fit for speed: [Viator, Fast] 3x Nanofiber Internal Structure II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Cap Recharger II [empty med slot] Covert Ops Cloaking Device II Low Friction Nozzle Joints I Cargohold Optimization I Cargohold: 3x Expanded Cargohold II + 1 Giant Secure Container, 5,100m3 And if I need maxxed Cargo I just swap the Nanofibers for the Expanded Cargoholds and can even put a 2nd GSC into it. Gives then 10,000m3.
Mystafyre Caldari Awaken tribe	Posted - 2009.06.27 20:05:00 - [28] Warp to zero. Enough said.
Illectroculus Defined	Posted - 2009.06.27 22:14:00 - [29] Another, slightly unorthodox alternative if you don't have racial industrial 5, but you do have access to exhumers is to use a Skiff as a transport ship. It's fast, agile, has decent tank, 4500m^3 of cargo and has the bonus over most transports of being able to field drones as a weapon system. As a miner I got in exhumers before I could fly transports, so for a long time I used my skiff as a transport. Now, I love my covops cloak and wouldn't give it up.
Kyra Felann Gallente Noctis Fleet Technologies	Posted - 2009.06.28 07:04:00 - [30] Originally by: Tres Farmer Originally by: Aristok Sol'Khal Blockade runner (Viator): 2 stabs, 1 istab, ... STOP. The survivability of a BR depends to 100% on its warpedcloack + fast alignment.. forget I-stabs. They don't help you on this one. Uh...how is -20% to inertia not going to help you align faster? Because that's what an Inertia Stablizer II gives you. Also, nanofiber internal structures are less effective at increasing align time than inertia stablizers (they got changed a while back in the speed nerf). They increase max velocity and decrease inertia, but not as much as an overdrive or inertia stabilizer, which only improves one of those. Max velocity doesn't help you align faster, so nanofibers are inferior to inertial stabilizers for blockade runners. You honestly don't seem to know what you're talking about. You will get a faster align time with 3 inertia stablizer IIs than nanofibers.

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