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Kaylan Jahlar
Minmatar Industrial Limited
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Posted - 2009.07.02 16:08:00 -
[1]
I already posted a thread about the Covetor skill requirements, but after a more thorough analysis, I realized that the issue goes far beyond that ship. The requirements for the whole Mining Barge and Exhumer class are out of wack and not linear. The training curve is not constant enough between each tier of Mining Barge, which makes the Retriever the only viable barge to use. The Procurer is worthless because for very little additional training, you can fly a Retriever. The Coveter is also worthless since only a few more days of training will get you in an Exhumer. The Mackinaw is not so bad, but not really worth it either since the only difference between it and the Hulk, is one level of Exhumer.
Here is a list the current requirements for Mining Barges and Exhumers. (Each ship is compared to the previous one)
Legend: (New) (+1) (+2) (Same)
Procurer: - Astrogeology III (Rank 3) - Industry V (Rank 1) - Mining Barge I (Rank 4) - Mining IV (Rank 1) - Science IV (Rank 1)
Retriever: - Astrogeology IV (Rank 3) - Industry V (Rank 1) - Mining Barge III (Rank 4) - Mining IV (Rank 1) - Science IV (Rank 1)
Covetor: - Astrogeology V (Rank 3) - Industry V (Rank 1) - Mining Barge V (Rank 4) - Mining IV (Rank 1) - Science IV (Rank 1)
Skiff: - Astrogeology V (Rank 3) - Exhumers I (Rank 5) - Industry V (Rank 1) - Mining Barge V (Rank 4) - Mining IV (Rank 1) - Science IV (Rank 1) - Spaceship Command IV (Rank 1)
Mackinaw: - Astrogeology V (Rank 3) - Exhumers II (Rank 5) - Industry V (Rank 1) - Mining Barge V (Rank 4) - Mining IV (Rank 1) - Science IV (Rank 1) - Spaceship Command IV (Rank 1)
Hulk: - Astrogeology V (Rank 3) - Exhumers III (Rank 5) - Industry V (Rank 1) - Mining Barge V (Rank 4) - Mining IV (Rank 1) - Science IV (Rank 1) - Spaceship Command IV (Rank 1)
(Continues in next post...)
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Kaylan Jahlar
Minmatar Industrial Limited
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Posted - 2009.07.02 16:09:00 -
[2]
reserved
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KaiserSoze434
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Posted - 2009.07.02 17:35:00 -
[3]
I like the addition of spaceship command, it just makes sense. I would also like to see a little diversity in T2 for miners. Something like the did with haulers in the blockade runners. Less raw mining potential but covert capabilities or inherent warp stabs. Maybe even a miner that can fit probes and gets a good bonus to grav sites.
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De'Veldrin
Minmatar Special Projects Executive
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Posted - 2009.07.02 17:37:00 -
[4]
Edited by: De''Veldrin on 02/07/2009 17:39:51 The Procurer isn't worthless because of the time to train to a retreiver, the Procurer is worthless because you can outmine it in a combat ship.
Before I trained for mining barges, I was using a Hurricane to mine in. I didn't bother getting a Procurer because the Hurricane actually mined faster than a Procurer could, even with an MLU fitted.
I went straight to a retreiver because that was the first level of Barge that actually boosted my mining rates.
My only real problem with your suggestion is that it doesn't address the central problem that the Procurer and the Skiff are, essentially, useless ships.
That aside, I do agree that Mining Barges need a good thorough looking at, as I pointed out in your other thread. However, in retrospect, I think it needs to go beyond just skill requirements. --Vel
Experience is what you get right after you need it.
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Kaylan Jahlar
Minmatar Industrial Limited
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Posted - 2009.07.02 17:47:00 -
[5]
Originally by: De'Veldrin Edited by: De''Veldrin on 02/07/2009 17:39:51 The Procurer isn't worthless because of the time to train to a retreiver, the Procurer is worthless because you can outmine it in a combat ship.
Before I trained for mining barges, I was using a Hurricane to mine in. I didn't bother getting a Procurer because the Hurricane actually mined faster than a Procurer could, even with an MLU fitted.
I went straight to a retreiver because that was the first level of Barge that actually boosted my mining rates.
My only real problem with your suggestion is that it doesn't address the central problem that the Procurer and the Skiff are, essentially, useless ships.
That aside, I do agree that Mining Barges need a good thorough looking at, as I pointed out in your other thread. However, in retrospect, I think it needs to go beyond just skill requirements.
The small versions (Procurer and Skiff) can be useful if someone doesn't want to train for Cruisers and Battleships (which is the case for most specialized miners out there). My mining character for example, concentrated all his training to go from Frigate to Mining Barges as fast as possible.
For someone who just wants something better than a frigate to mine, the Procurer would be a good thing to buy if the learning gap between it and the Retriever wasn't so small. Same goes for the Skiff.
That said, I do agree that the ship bonuses for those two ships could be better to make it worth it even more.
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Resivan
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Posted - 2009.07.02 17:51:00 -
[6]
No problems I see with the addition of Spaceship Command III for T1 barges and Mining V for Covetor and above. I do find the idea of requiring Science V for the Hulk odd given that of the mining related science skills only Hydromagnetic Physics has that as a prereq (Astrogeology requires it at IV, as does Metallurgy). If you really want miners to train Science V, the Mackinaw is the place for it. If the intent is merely to add a few more days to the Hulk requirements I think Exhumers IV is a better way to go.
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Kaylan Jahlar
Minmatar Industrial Limited
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Posted - 2009.07.02 18:18:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Resivan I do find the idea of requiring Science V for the Hulk odd given that of the mining related science skills only Hydromagnetic Physics has that as a prereq (Astrogeology requires it at IV, as does Metallurgy). If you really want miners to train Science V, the Mackinaw is the place for it. If the intent is merely to add a few more days to the Hulk requirements I think Exhumers IV is a better way to go.
Yeah, I thought about that too, but Science is a Rank 1 skill while Exhumer is a Rank 5 skill. One level of Exhumer is more than a few days of training, which is why I thought it would be too much of a gap, but it would make sense to me as well if others are accepting the change.
Accorging to EVEMon, on my miner (which has learning skills and attributes optimized for Industry skills with +3 implants), it would take around 4 days to get from Science IV to Science V, while it would take roughly 7 days to go from Exhumer III to Exhumer IV. Is 3 more days too much?
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De'Veldrin
Special Projects Executive
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Posted - 2009.07.02 19:09:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Kaylan Jahlar
The small versions (Procurer and Skiff) can be useful if someone doesn't want to train for Cruisers and Battleships (which is the case for most specialized miners out there). My mining character for example, concentrated all his training to go from Frigate to Mining Barges as fast as possible.
For someone who just wants something better than a frigate to mine, the Procurer would be a good thing to buy if the learning gap between it and the Retriever wasn't so small. Same goes for the Skiff.
That said, I do agree that the ship bonuses for those two ships could be better to make it worth it even more.
I agree with both your points there. (And I'm adding my support, which I forgot to do earlier. This definately needs a looking over). Pure miners, who aren't training cruisers and up probably would find the Procurer useful. But I doubt my situation was unique or even that uncommon, especially for people who only have time to play one character.
All of that aside, I agree with your proposed skill changes, but I sincerely hope that any review CCP does of these ships goes beyond the skill requirements alone. --Vel
Experience is what you get right after you need it.
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Kaylan Jahlar
Minmatar Industrial Limited
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Posted - 2009.07.02 20:19:00 -
[9]
Originally by: KaiserSoze434 I like the addition of spaceship command, it just makes sense. I would also like to see a little diversity in T2 for miners. Something like the did with haulers in the blockade runners. Less raw mining potential but covert capabilities or inherent warp stabs. Maybe even a miner that can fit probes and gets a good bonus to grav sites.
Humm, maybe that could be something done to make the Procurer and the Skiff more useful. Make them the perfect Ninja/Exploration Miners. They would be quicker than the other ships of their class, mine a little less (but still able to use a Strip Miner and Gas Harvesters), be able to fit a Core Probe Launcher, and have a slight bonus to scan probe strength.
I don't know if it's possible, but to make it very specialized, the strength bonus could be only for sites of a particular type (Gravimetric for hidden belts, and Ladar for gas clouds).
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Resivan
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Posted - 2009.07.02 20:27:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Kaylan Jahlar
According to EVEMon, on my miner (which has learning skills and attributes optimized for Industry skills with +3 implants), it would take around 4 days to get from Science IV to Science V, while it would take roughly 7 days to go from Exhumer III to Exhumer IV. Is 3 more days too much?
It took me around 4 days to train Exhumers IV (+4s, stats optimized around a plan that has a lot of other ship skills in it). Seemed to me time well spent for the added yield (though I don't plan to do Exhumers V any time soon), so I think a lot of miners would be training it anyway.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange Coalition of Free Stars
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Posted - 2009.07.02 21:15:00 -
[11]
I like this. Good proposal, and better done than most of the similar ones.
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Just fearless
The Necromongers
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Posted - 2009.07.02 22:40:00 -
[12]
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Yakius Warkar
Minmatar Industrial Limited
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Posted - 2009.07.03 06:46:00 -
[13]
The mining ships definitely need to revised skill wise and bonus wise. Like you suggestions
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Galen Gallente
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Posted - 2009.07.03 13:50:00 -
[14]
I agree with everything except Science V for the Hulk. Either Science V for all Exhumers or do not change it for any of them. There is no reason for Science to go up 1 rank. The only reason Science IV is required is for the Astro-geology. It then trumps the science as it is a more specialized skill.
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Kaylan Jahlar
Minmatar Industrial Limited
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Posted - 2009.07.03 13:54:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Kaylan Jahlar on 03/07/2009 13:55:19
Originally by: Galen Gallente I agree with everything except Science V for the Hulk. Either Science V for all Exhumers or do not change it for any of them. There is no reason for Science to go up 1 rank. The only reason Science IV is required is for the Astrogeology. It then trumps the science as it is a more specialized skill.
Then we need something else to make the training gap between the Mackinaw and the Hulk longer (but not too much) so the Mackinaw can be a worthy intermediate ship to use. Maybe set the Hulk requirement to Exhumer IV instead of III? This would add about 7 days of training which may make the Mackinaw worth it at least for a week.
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Kaylan Jahlar
The Assembly Hall needs your support! |
Dirk Larien
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Posted - 2009.07.03 13:56:00 -
[16]
good idea
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Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange Coalition of Free Stars
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Posted - 2009.07.03 15:38:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Kaylan Jahlar Edited by: Kaylan Jahlar on 03/07/2009 13:55:19
Originally by: Galen Gallente I agree with everything except Science V for the Hulk. Either Science V for all Exhumers or do not change it for any of them. There is no reason for Science to go up 1 rank. The only reason Science IV is required is for the Astrogeology. It then trumps the science as it is a more specialized skill.
Then we need something else to make the training gap between the Mackinaw and the Hulk longer (but not too much) so the Mackinaw can be a worthy intermediate ship to use. Maybe set the Hulk requirement to Exhumer IV instead of III? This would add about 7 days of training which may make the Mackinaw worth it at least for a week.
The Mackinaw is an ice mining ship. It doesn't matter if you make the Hulk outright easier than the Mackinaw, people will still use the Mackinaw.
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Sharp Feather
Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2009.07.03 18:32:00 -
[18]
Its logic, I support. =================================================
Before: Developers loved games and made money. Now: Developers love money and make games. |
Kaylan Jahlar
Minmatar Industrial Limited
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Posted - 2009.07.03 19:52:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto The Mackinaw is an ice mining ship. It doesn't matter if you make the Hulk outright easier than the Mackinaw, people will still use the Mackinaw.
Right, I forgot about the ship roles when I wrote this... Humm, in this case, if both the Mackinaw and the Hulk should be somewhat at the same level (due to the specialized Ice Harvesting role of the Mackinaw), then perhaps the Mackinaw should have Ice Harvesting IV as a required skill. |
Comodore John
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Posted - 2009.07.05 03:51:00 -
[20]
Originally by: De'Veldrin Edited by: De''Veldrin on 02/07/2009 17:39:51 Skiff are, essentially, useless ships.
this is where i stopped: the skiff is a low sec or null sec space mining barge, its primary role as far as i can tell from the bonuses is that its for escaping a solo pirate or whoever using just one scrambler, and to mine mercoxite. i think a skiff is more valuable in non high sec space simply because of the +2 warp strength.
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Uronksur Suth
Sankkasen Mining Conglomerate Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2009.07.05 07:25:00 -
[21]
Supported, but personally, I'm not sure I agree with your levels for Astrogeology on the Barges.
I think 2,3,4 would be more reasonable, rather then 3,4,5.
But then again, your the one crafting the idea, and I approve of this in general, just with that caveat I thought I'd mention.
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