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Victor Vision
Amarr
Central Intelligence Service
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Posted - 2009.10.02 12:54:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Victor Vision on 02/10/2009 12:55:44
 Originally by: Kerfira
Edited by: Kerfira on 01/10/2009 21:55:33
Originally by: amdul kabar
Pardon my newbness but the OP is the first guy I've seen who claims he makes 45 mil/hour, and I have not heard anyone else make that much from L4.
Look here for a list of people who've said the figures are good. There are some pretty well known people there too.....
I am pretty well known, and I call you a liar, Mr.Kerfira.
Your numbers are not realistic.
EVE War I-The Beginning - EVE HistoryWiki |
Victor Vision
Amarr
Central Intelligence Service
|
Posted - 2009.10.02 15:44:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Victor Vision on 02/10/2009 15:47:45
Originally by: Kerfira
Then do your own statistics and present them for review, as I have done!
Just putting a wild-ass claim out of your behind makes you look silly. You're not even pointing out any of my figures being wrong, just shouting "I refuse to believe this because I refuse to believe this!"
Silly way of arguing....
It is you, Mr.Kerfira, who is looking silly.
You put up some numbers which are widely disputed
and you are making wild claims, not me.
Present proof for your numbers if you want them to be believable.
How?
Do a video from mission acceptance till end. Including salvaging. Realtime, no cuts.
Can not provide this evidence? Do not want to?
Either way, without proof your numbers mean nothing.
EVE War I-The Beginning - EVE HistoryWiki |
Victor Vision
Amarr
Central Intelligence Service
|
Posted - 2009.10.02 16:46:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Norwegian Wood
Anyone who has bothered to run missions effectively and track their earnings knows Kefira's numbers are legit, several have come in this thread saying they do even better...
The numbers I have are different.
As long as I do not see hard proof for Mr.Kerfira's numbers,
they mean nothing.
You are aware quite a number of people tend to exaggerate or not calculate correctly?
So again, proof please.
EVE War I-The Beginning - EVE HistoryWiki |
Victor Vision
Amarr
Central Intelligence Service
|
Posted - 2009.10.02 17:32:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Victor Vision on 02/10/2009 17:33:15
Originally by: Norwegian Wood
I gave you the proof stop trolling.
2009.10.02 - 04:09 - 609.000 isk (Mission reward)
2009.10.02 - 04:09 - 589.000 isk (Mission reward)
2009.10.02 - 04:21 - 1.564.000 isk (Bounty)
2009.10.02 - 04:46 - 2.898.383 isk (Bounty)
2009.10.02 - 05:01 - 1.440.000 isk (Mission reward)
2009.10.02 - 05:01 - 1.430.000 isk (Mission reward)
2009.10.02 - 05:06 - 3.593.067 isk (Mission reward)
Total Bounties & Rewards hour 1: 12.123.450 isk
2009.10.02 - 05:21 - 10.436.375 isk (Bounty)
2009.10.02 - 05:41 - 11.028.375 isk (Bounty)
2009.10.02 - 05:41 - 1.440.000 isk (Bounty)
2009.10.02 - 05:41 - 1.890.000 isk (Bounty)
Total Bounties & Rewards 35min (5:06-5:41): 24.794.750 isk
Summing up:
Total Rewards & Bounties for the complete 92 minutes: 36.918.200 isk
Isk per hour from rewards & bounties (rounded): 24mil
Isk per minute from rewards & bounties (rounded): 401k
That is what the screenshot shows, no more no less.
EVE War I-The Beginning - EVE HistoryWiki |
Victor Vision
Amarr
Central Intelligence Service
|
Posted - 2009.10.02 18:05:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Victor Vision on 02/10/2009 18:05:31
Originally by: Norwegian Wood
Originally by: Victor Vision
Isk per hour from rewards & bounties (rounded): 24mil
Isk per minute from rewards & bounties (rounded): 401k
That is what the screenshot shows, no more no less.
yes, and I claim to make 20 mil/hr .. in a Mael ... with no LP ... with no salvage.
A Golem will run missions faster than a Mael
A Golem will be able to loot and salvage much quicker than a non-maruader.
LP do have monetary value, and Kefira's ISK/LP is high but not out of the realm of possibility.
You have no rational reason to doubt Kefira's numbers.
The point is, if anyone throws around numbers without providing proof for them, they have no value.
As I said, if the OP is able to provide solid proof for his claims, then I stand corrected.
No problem for me.
EVE War I-The Beginning - EVE HistoryWiki |
Victor Vision
Amarr
Central Intelligence Service
|
Posted - 2009.10.02 18:54:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Norwegian Wood
Are you familiar with the term "peer reviewed"
In this case, the OP's "peers" are people who have run and timed missions in well suited and fitted ships. I have yet to see one of those people argue with Kefira's numbers.
It is not rational to say "Those numbers look wrong." That is, in fact, the opposite of rational: it is relying on a gut feeling or falling back on some sort of knee-jerk paranoia.
It is rational to say "Those numbers look wrong because I have tried to duplicate your experiment and have been unable to replicate your results." I have not seen anyone make this claim.
In science, everything is seen as "theory" until it is proven a fact.
Even if a million friends, peers, people, celebreties or whatever/whoever agree with the "theory" it still is not a fact.
Theories are like dreams. Some are nice, some shocking, but all are fictional until proven otherwise. Very simple.
If the OP wants to build an argument, he better found his theory with proof.
EVE War I-The Beginning - EVE HistoryWiki |
Victor Vision
Amarr
Central Intelligence Service
|
Posted - 2009.10.02 19:23:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Victor Vision on 02/10/2009 19:24:45
Originally by: Norwegian Wood
Kefira has given you more than fictions and theory, he has provided his data which is fairly easy to replicate for yourself.
He is under no obligation or burden to provide you any thing more. If you continue to disbelieve him, your ignorance is solely the result of your own laziness.
The OP is trying to make a point.
He has given some numbers, but no proof for those numbers.
It is upon him to prove his point, not upon me to prove him wrong.
As long as he can not prove his point, it has no value.
EVE War I-The Beginning - EVE HistoryWiki |
Victor Vision
Amarr
Central Intelligence Service
|
Posted - 2009.10.02 19:36:00 -
[8]
Originally by: amdul kabar
Originally by: Norwegian Wood
Are you familiar with the term "peer reviewed"
In this case, the OP's "peers" are people who have run and timed missions in well suited and fitted ships. I have yet to see one of those people argue with Kefira's numbers.
It is not rational to say "Those numbers look wrong." That is, in fact, the opposite of rational: it is relying on a gut feeling or falling back on some sort of knee-jerk paranoia.
It is rational to say "Those numbers look wrong because I have tried to duplicate your experiment and have been unable to replicate your results." I have not seen anyone make this claim.
The numbers aren't 'wrong', but 'unusual'. If Kef said he makes 25 mil/hour from missions, no one would ask for any proof because it is widely accepted as possible. In that situation, the assumption can be made. Right now, he's saying he makes more than what many mission runner makes, hence so many people coming up and say the numbers could be made up. When you make a controversial statement, you must have empirical data to support your findings. It doesn't matter if there are people who can vouch for said person, proof must be presented as long as there is a side that objects to such findings.
Precisely.
EVE War I-The Beginning - EVE HistoryWiki |
Victor Vision
Amarr
Central Intelligence Service
|
Posted - 2009.10.03 11:25:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
2 mission, in 1 and a half hours is more like 10.000 LP (with the best agents in game and the special connection skills), so at least 6.500 LP/hour and not the pitiful 4.600 your calculation will give.
Look,
I can claim to get 15000LP per minute.
I can claim to get 5mil isk per LP.
I can claim to make 5bil an hour running missions.
But without proof, the claims mean nothing.
Originally by: Venkul Mul
A beginner at level 4 missions will really make around 20 million hour while a expert with top gear and skills can make as much as 50 millions with ease, i.e. the veteran level 4 mission runner get 250% of the profit of the beginner.
Again, you are making assumptions as long as there is no proof.
As I have said, my numbers are different.
EVE War I-The Beginning - EVE HistoryWiki |
Victor Vision
Amarr
Central Intelligence Service
|
Posted - 2009.10.03 11:54:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Victor Vision on 03/10/2009 11:54:14
Originally by: Kerfira
Useless drivel
YOU advocated reprocessing loot, building ships from it, and then selling them under price.
I took up on that and said building ships and selling them takes more than ZERO time.
Besides, are you trying to change the topic?
You put up some mission numbers,
now provide proof for them.
I will continue to doubt you until you finally produce proof.
Since you still have not been able to produce proof, it becomes more and more obvious that your numbers are theoretical.
EVE War I-The Beginning - EVE HistoryWiki |
Victor Vision
Amarr
Central Intelligence Service
|
Posted - 2009.10.03 12:30:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Victor Vision on 03/10/2009 12:35:13
Originally by: Kerfira
Still no proof
As far as I can see it is you slinging mud and being insulting.
Rather amusing, but somehow sad as well.
Your only way out of this is to provide proof for your numbers.
Instead of wasting your time replying to this thread,
get some screen grab software (FRAPS is well known)
and let us see if you speak the truth.
It is very, very simple.
EVE War I-The Beginning - EVE HistoryWiki |
Victor Vision
Amarr
Central Intelligence Service
|
Posted - 2009.10.03 17:56:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Kerfira
With each set of statistics I've uploaded a downloadable spreadsheet to eve-files, which details EVERY single mission run, how much ISK is earned for bounties and rewards, how much LP is earned, how much salvage is made (split down in individual types), and refined loot (split in individual minerals). Also provided are the prices used to calculate the totals.
Care to elaborate how this is supposed to be proof for your mission/salvage times given?
EVE War I-The Beginning - EVE HistoryWiki |
Victor Vision
Amarr
Central Intelligence Service
|
Posted - 2009.10.03 19:12:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Victor Vision on 03/10/2009 19:15:07
Originally by: Trigos Trilobi
One of 9 chars of the OP? Certainly sounds similar
Reread what was said about that screeny.
The guy who posted it said he makes 20mil/h average.
That is unequal to 45-50mil/h average.
You can find the corresponding discussion here. If I may remind you, you were part of it. 
For the 45-50mil/h average, solid proof required.
Preferrably a complete fraps of such a mission/salvaging run.
Got it?
EVE War I-The Beginning - EVE HistoryWiki |
Victor Vision
Amarr
Central Intelligence Service
|
Posted - 2009.10.03 20:43:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Victor Vision on 03/10/2009 20:44:31
Originally by: Trigos Trilobi
Theoretical assumptions
What in the world is so hard about providing a fraps of a complete mission/salvage run?
PvPers post fraps all the time. (Not of missions of course, but of heroic acts of PvP )
Once solid proof is presented, the discussion can go from there.
EVE War I-The Beginning - EVE HistoryWiki |
Victor Vision
Amarr
Central Intelligence Service
|
Posted - 2009.10.03 21:24:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Victor Vision on 03/10/2009 21:25:00
Originally by: Trigos Trilobi
...I'm sure it would amuse you to no end if someone actually went through the troubles to fraps and post a mission...
Fraps is very simple to use, no effort at all.
Step 1: Install fraps.
Step 2: Assign video capture hotkey.
Step 3: Press said key.
Step 4: Upload movie on www.eve-files.com, in the upload section here.
Step 5: Post link to movie in this thread.
Done.
Originally by: Trigos Trilobi
...I, atleast, am done with your trolling.
Wonderful.
EVE War I-The Beginning - EVE HistoryWiki |
Victor Vision
Amarr
Central Intelligence Service
|
Posted - 2009.10.04 14:00:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Victor Vision on 04/10/2009 14:05:47
Originally by: Trigos Trilobi
...The guy I was replying to already accepted the numbers by the mael pilot, which were past 20m/hour from mission reward + bounties alone. I just pointed out that you can easily extrapolate the marauder income from that.
If I accept some numbers it does not make them true. (Even though I whish it was so)
Maybe the guy had a buddy who was remote reping him in the mission so he could use more dps?
Who knows.
Originally by: Trigos Trilobi
...a simple 20m/0.4 puts us at a rough estimate of 50m/hour total. It is, as I said, a rough estimate, but it still proves that my or the OP's numbers are easily within realm of reason...
Basing a request for a nerf of 100's or maybe 1000's of mission runners
on a "rough estimate" reached by a hypothetical extrapolation of some other, differing
mission data, seems higly laughable to me.
If the OP can not prove the numbers he is giving as average mission income,
then all the rest of his arguments he builds upon those unproven numbers are built on air.
They have no relevance.
As I have said, my personal guess is that the OP is a failed 0.0 existance.
This is not meant as an insult, it is an observation.
As I have also said, I further guess that the OP did the same thing you just did,
he took some (maybe even realistic) mission data he had - or made - and extrapolated
these numbers. He did this since the hourly income he could achieve with missions would have given him no reason to call for a nerf.
IF the OP had just been bragging about his utter competence in running missions,
I would not have bothered to reply to his thread. I have seen unrealistic claims for mission income before, just as I have seen unrealistic claims of many things.
Does not bother me the least, it is part of human nature to exaggerate.
However, if someone - as in this case the OP - calls for a nerf of pretty much everyone residing in high sec, then I see it as appropriate to respond. Even though he may just be an elaborate troll and laughing about all the responses - and with that free bumps - he got.
EVE War I-The Beginning - EVE HistoryWiki |
Victor Vision
Amarr
Central Intelligence Service
|
Posted - 2009.10.04 19:21:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Trigos Trilobi
...my crude estimation was based on three assumptions:
Lets have a look:
Originally by: Trigos Trilobi
a) a mael pilot can make 20m/h in rewards+bounties alone as proven by the screenshot earlier in this thread, and a golem can easily match a mael in this regard
A mission runner can make 20mil/h in rewards/bounties if the mission he chose pays well. Some may be able to get more out of a well paying mission in rewards/bounties per hour.
But not all missions pay well. Declining a mission gives a standings hit if done too frequently. So it is hardly possible to decline all "bad" missions for a single agent within a timeframe of say - 8hrs. Typically mission runners will have more than one agent, and switch agents if declining further missions for the first agent seems unfavourable. Usually switching agents means spending time traveling to the next agent.
During that time no income is earned, lowering the isk/h over a longer period of time.
Originally by: Trigos Trilobi
b) a golem pilot can loot and salvage a mission without significantly impacting the mission completion time
On a small mission with relatively few NPCs, a marauder pilot will probably be able to both complete the mission and collect loot/salvage with only a slight increase of time compared to running the same mission without looting/salvaging.
However, even in that case, the effort for running the mission obviously increases, since the mission runner will not only have to target and shoot the NPCs, but also target and tractor/salvage the loot.
Also, the time needed for completion is likely to increase somewhat, simply due to multitasking usually reducing the speed with which every single task can be done (if performed by humans at least)
On a large mission, with many NPCs in the mission, the cargo bay of a marauder (1225qm in case of the golem) is not large enough to hold all loot/salvage. An additional ship has to be brought in to slavage the rest. Larger missions often yield about 2000qm in loot/slavage.
Bringing in an additional ship to loot/salvage, increases mission time by a few minutes at the very least - even when bookmarking the wrecks.
Also it needs to be kept in mind that the range of tractor beams on marauders is 40km.
While this range is sufficient to reach most wrecks in a mission, it may not be sufficient to reach all of them. If the wrecks can not be reached, a lot of time is lost if it is chosen to loot/salvage these wrecks anyway.
Furthermore, the distance at which the NPCs spawn from the marauder has an impact on completion time. A short range high dps marauder will have to wait for the NPCs to come within range - both of his guns/launchers and of his tractor beams. Multiple missions that I know of have NPCs spawn as far as 100km away from the mission runner. This can cost time when killing these NPCs and is even more likely to cost time when wanting to loot/slavage.
Originally by: Trigos Trilobi
c) reward+isk forms about 40% of a mission income.
The most disputeable assumption of the three.
Extra income from missions besides bounties/rewards depends highly on salvage part prices (which fluctuate), mineral prices (which fluctuate) or module prices (which fluctuate).
Also extra income from missions depends on number of LPs gained per mission (this depends on security status of the system the agent is located in, Agent quality and other factors such as connection skill books).
It also depends on LP/isk conversion rates, which can vary steeply between differing LP stores.
On top of that, creating/maintaining spreadsheets with data about LP store items and their current conversion rates can take a lot of time. This time would have to be included in any isk/hour calculations.
Plus you may only have access to an agent with high LP/h yield but a sub optimal LP store or vice versa. Lowering LP/isk conversion rates.
And it takes time to get access to top quality agents.
EVE War I-The Beginning - EVE HistoryWiki |
Victor Vision
Amarr
Central Intelligence Service
|
Posted - 2009.10.04 19:26:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Trigos Trilobi
If you accept all three assumptions, it mathematically follows that a golem pilot would do that 50m/hour. It's not rocket science, really. And obviously it's just a crude estimation, but crude estimations like this are used all the time to quickly verify if some more complicated calculation or data set is roughly of the proper magnitude.
If you want to contest this, please show how any of the above assumptions is wrong.
There is a difference between something being wrong and something being not right all the time. The assumptions may be correct in a temporary optimal situation, but are very unlikely to be maintainable over a longer period of time. The assumptions may be acceptable to calculate maximum peak income, but they are not very good for calculating actual average income over longer periods of time.
Originally by: Trigos Trilobi
Furthermore I'd be interested to hear if any of you contesting the ops numbers have ANY numbers of your own to show. Any estimates of how much wrong those numbers are?
Typical estimates of average lvl 4 mission runner income is around 20mil isk per hour.
(This would be including people who earn as little as 10mil and those who may be able to maintain 30 mil per hour)
Again, these numbers are what you get over longer periods of time, not peak income.
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