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[Proposal] PDS for Capitals and Super Capitals

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Vyanr Minmatar Professors On Steriods DEFI4NT	Posted - 2009.07.08 05:15:00 - [1] I've been thinking of this for a long while. The common sense factor of EVE has always boggled my mind. Right now, the tens of billions isk Titans and Motherships are generally unarmed in any special way. They're basically just bigger, more expensive versions of the Dreadnought and Carrier. With a Doomsday firing, the Titan is basically 'locked down' in that system for 10 or so minuets. The mothership's only real strengths in battle are Triage and Fighters. Both are immune to general Electronic warfare, but if a heavy interdictor get in, it won't matter that you can't be slowed or your locks disrupted, you can't escape until it's gone. What I wish to present to the floor is for a sort of Point-defense system that is automated for the Super capitals, and for the general ones as well. I would seriously doubt that, in a roleplaying/"real" life situation in this universe, that the factions would not have designed their most powerful ships known to the game to be as weak as possible. There are two possible ways that I'll put forth to accomplish a viable point defense system for capitals. The first is actual turrets already built into the ship, with another UI menu via right-click on the ship to control their firing parameters and target-acquisition guidelines. The second possible way is a new capital modual. Mountable only on Capitals via the normal power grid and CPU costs being astronomical on norm. This modual would be activated to turn the guns on, which would allow 6-24 or so auto cannons/blasters/pulse lasers to open fire on objects targeted at you. These guns would need to have a very fast and accurate tracking speed to be useful enough to destroy drones and missiles, and have enough punch to scare off interceptors and other small craft. Both of these choices would have the guns with unlimited ammo, or with a special new type of ammo which would deplete the cargo bay of the ship. They could have a range of 7-20 Km to better defend the ship. I believe that this would not only allow Carriers and motherships to be more than glorified, expensive logistics ships, but also allow dreadnoughts and titans the chance to put up more of a fight than just sitting there taking the brunt of 100+ drones, etc. Now, a valid point-defense is the "smart" bomb, however, the smart bombs damage your own fighters, drones, fleet members, and even possibly yourself too. They're also only given one particular damage type, and have a comparatively slow cycle time to re-fire. The other, biggest reason is that they have a maximum possible range of 5 km (6 for T2) for the larges. All in all, for the TL;DR folks; Super Capitals should have a defensive system that allows the ship to fight off drones and missiles more effectively than what a smartbomb can bring in terms of re-fire rate, range, and damage output. For the folks who also enjoy eye candy, it could also be more than a little fun to watch as your capital ship's defense systems throw bullets, charges, or lasers into the space around it to shoot down all sorts of little things. ---------
darius mclever	Posted - 2009.07.08 11:05:00 - [2] your point defense system is the support fleet for the super capital. titans or motherships should never be alone. not support.
Herschel Yamamoto Agent-Orange Coalition of Free Stars	Posted - 2009.07.08 16:12:00 - [3] Originally by: darius mclever your point defense system is the support fleet for the super capital. titans or motherships should never be alone. not support. This. Despite how Titans are used in practice at times, they should not be built to be capable of solo operation.
Scatim Helicon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.07.08 16:21:00 - [4] yeah this is dumb, no titan would ever die ever again if it could just fit multiple batteries of autocannons or pulse lasers and obliterate dictors and heavy dictors at will. If you want your titan to be safe(r), protect it with your support fleet.
Ms Murda	Posted - 2009.07.08 16:34:00 - [5] For a titan..... maybe not, But for a Carrier Mothership hells yes! they need a little boost somehow and i think this would be perfect! "The second possible way is a new capital modual. Mountable only on Capitals via the normal power grid and CPU costs being astronomical on norm. This modual would be activated to turn the guns on, which would allow 6-24 or so auto cannons/blasters/pulse lasers to open fire on objects targeted at you. These guns would need to have a very fast and accurate tracking speed to be useful enough to destroy drones and missiles, and have enough punch to scare off interceptors and other small craft."
Sarkadji	Posted - 2009.07.08 19:54:00 - [6] Moronic. Making titans even better suited to the role of solopwntoys is a BAD idea. A titan pilot flying WITHOUT such a defense system called 'support fleet' is an idiot who deserves to die. Twice.
Vyanr Professors On Steriods DEFI4NT	Posted - 2009.07.08 21:18:00 - [7] Edited by: Vyanr on 08/07/2009 21:18:29 Edited by: Vyanr on 08/07/2009 21:18:16 Unless the support fleet is going to shoot down every single drone, every single missile-launching ship, and every single hostile ship; there's the need for a efficient way of defending oneself from the tiny buggers that a cloud of drones bring, or the pain of Citadel torpedoes from dreadnoughts. This would be a point-defense system. Titans aren't meant to die. They're flagships of alliances. Quote: no titan would ever die ever again if it could just fit multiple batteries of autocannons or pulse lasers and obliterate dictors and heavy dictors at will. Wrong, the defense system would be a small grade of the racial ship's weapon type, perhaps even the civilian version. Anything larger than a frigate isn't going to take worrisome damage from it, and the bigger ships will have the range to stay outside of the defense system's range. If anything, just make this system for mothership and carriers then, who are otherwise unarmed. That would help with the issue and defenselessness that carrier and mothership pilots deal with. I've seen a few major fleet fights where the primary damage on carrier killmails were drones if there wasn't a dreadnought there. This idea will not grant either of the super capitals the ability to weather fleets aimed to take them down. The current Smartbombs aren't even able to protect the ship enough, let alone kill anything with 'em. This idea is not aimed at allowing the capitals to become invincible, but merely allow them to better defend against drones and missiles. In the real, out of game world, during WWII; All naval military vessels had some sort of mounted machine gun to discourage aircraft from attacking them. Carriers and battleships had a very refined system that had a good chance of knocking almost anything that attacked the ship down. In almost all other sci-fi based universes, the capital ships have an established PDS to help defend the ships from smaller starfighter attack, and in some cases even against missiles. The point-defense system here is mainly a reasoning that, if logic denotes that capital ships are more often than not armed with some sort of anti-fighter/munition defense system that protects the ship in battle should be represented here as well.
steave435 Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.07.08 22:38:00 - [8] Edited by: steave435 on 08/07/2009 22:38:34 Quote: Unless the support fleet is going to shoot down every single drone, every single missile-launching ship, and every single hostile ship; there's the need for a efficient way of defending oneself from the tiny buggers that a cloud of drones bring, or the pain of Citadel torpedoes from dreadnoughts. This would be a point-defense system. That is indeed exactly what they're supposed to do. Your caps shoot the pos/hostile caps/other huge stuff, while your support fleet deal with small stuff. Caps and supercaps deployed alone or with insufficient support need to die. Smartbombs are more then enough defense against drones, juts scoop your own drones before activating, or send them out of range.
Vyanr Minmatar Professors On Steriods DEFI4NT	Posted - 2009.07.09 00:19:00 - [9] Originally by: steave435 Edited by: steave435 on 08/07/2009 22:38:34 Quote: Unless the support fleet is going to shoot down every single drone, every single missile-launching ship, and every single hostile ship; there's the need for a efficient way of defending oneself from the tiny buggers that a cloud of drones bring, or the pain of Citadel torpedoes from dreadnoughts. This would be a point-defense system. That is indeed exactly what they're supposed to do. Your caps shoot the pos/hostile caps/other huge stuff, while your support fleet deal with small stuff. Caps and supercaps deployed alone or with insufficient support need to die. Smartbombs are more then enough defense against drones, juts scoop your own drones before activating, or send them out of range. Ok, please tell me where it is that your support fleet is able to intercept all the missiles and drones that attack the super capital? Also, I do think that a lot of drones can shoot past the 5-6KM range that the smart bomb gives off. with this system, it'd be able to pick off the drones with efficient accuracy and reliability.
Daffyd Bowie	Posted - 2009.07.09 00:41:00 - [10] Edited by: Daffyd Bowie on 09/07/2009 00:46:47 Edited by: Daffyd Bowie on 09/07/2009 00:46:07 Originally by: Vyanr Ok, please tell me where it is that your support fleet is able to intercept all the missiles and drones that attack the super capital? At the point of origin. Unless you've seen alot of supercaps being one-volleyed? Also, Originally by: Vyanr Titans aren't meant to die. They're the flagships... What game are we discussing? I thought these were the Eve-O forums.
Herschel Yamamoto Agent-Orange Coalition of Free Stars	Posted - 2009.07.09 01:24:00 - [11] Originally by: Sarkadji Moronic. Making titans even better suited to the role of solopwntoys is a BAD idea. A titan pilot flying WITHOUT such a defense system called 'support fleet' is an idiot who deserves to die. Twice. Or four times.
Grarr Dexx Amarr Corp 1 Allstars	Posted - 2009.07.09 04:49:00 - [12] So basically a smartbomb that doesn't hurt your friends? Get out. Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist
darius mclever	Posted - 2009.07.09 11:19:00 - [13] Originally by: Vyanr Ok, please tell me where it is that your support fleet is able to intercept all the missiles and drones that attack the super capital? Also, I do think that a lot of drones can shoot past the 5-6KM range that the smart bomb gives off. with this system, it'd be able to pick off the drones with efficient accuracy and reliability. 1. support can shoot drones and fighters. 2. titans/motherships usually get faction/offer smartbombs. they hit up to 9k. 3. dps wise battleships/hacs/dreads/carrier fighters are worse for the super capital than any drones. and last but not least the supercapitals are not supposed to defend themself against a fleet.
steave435 Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.07.09 11:35:00 - [14] Originally by: Vyanr Originally by: steave435 Edited by: steave435 on 08/07/2009 22:38:34 Quote: Unless the support fleet is going to shoot down every single drone, every single missile-launching ship, and every single hostile ship; there's the need for a efficient way of defending oneself from the tiny buggers that a cloud of drones bring, or the pain of Citadel torpedoes from dreadnoughts. This would be a point-defense system. That is indeed exactly what they're supposed to do. Your caps shoot the pos/hostile caps/other huge stuff, while your support fleet deal with small stuff. Caps and supercaps deployed alone or with insufficient support need to die. Smartbombs are more then enough defense against drones, juts scoop your own drones before activating, or send them out of range. Ok, please tell me where it is that your support fleet is able to intercept all the missiles and drones that attack the super capital? Also, I do think that a lot of drones can shoot past the 5-6KM range that the smart bomb gives off. with this system, it'd be able to pick off the drones with efficient accuracy and reliability. Easy. Shoot the drones, shoot the missile kaunching ships, or if you really want to kill the missiles instead of the source, fof missiles
Laechyd Eldgorn Caldari Endemic Aggression Exalted.	Posted - 2009.07.09 15:56:00 - [15] terribad idea. pds for titan could be cool if it didn't have dd. But that's it.
Yaay The Players Club	Posted - 2009.07.09 16:02:00 - [16] Originally by: Vyanr The other, biggest reason is that they have a maximum possible range of 5 km (6 for T2) for the larges. You lost all credibility right there. DD changes Docking PVP games
Maxsim Goratiev Imperial Tau Syndicate	Posted - 2009.07.09 19:47:00 - [17] Edited by: Maxsim Goratiev on 09/07/2009 19:47:59 Originally by: Ms Murda For a titan..... maybe not, But for a Carrier Mothership hells yes! they need a little boost somehow and i think this would be perfect! "The second possible way is a new capital modual. Mountable only on Capitals via the normal power grid and CPU costs being astronomical on norm. This modual would be activated to turn the guns on, which would allow 6-24 or so auto cannons/blasters/pulse lasers to open fire on objects targeted at you. These guns would need to have a very fast and accurate tracking speed to be useful enough to destroy drones and missiles, and have enough punch to scare off interceptors and other small craft." Actually that makes moderate amount o sence. Shooting drones, interceptors and frigs. Maybe they would scare off a t1 crouser. Really it is 1 gun, it just looks like many guns placed all over the ship to make it look col, just like the dual/quadriple barrel versions of normal guns. They could even be made automatic and would take out drones and small **. they will be rather weak. Another way to do this is to make a capital smartbomb, twice the size of large smartbomb and more damage. Would be almost same thing, but i think idea with guns sounds cooler. Same thing as smartbomb, give the guns optimal same as current faction smartbombs have. 9-10 km. Make it really a single gun, it is visually multiple guns to make it look cool. Carrier and mothrship module. only one can be fitted. Multiples can be fitted on mothership maybe? motherships need more love. Quote:** terribad idea. pds for titan could be cool if it didn't have dd. But that's it. so lt's get t for carriers and motherships. Maybe he does not have a whole lot of experience with capitals, but idea makes sence, and is worth looking into. Fix Destroyers
darius mclever	Posted - 2009.07.10 01:21:00 - [18] Originally by: Maxsim Goratiev Maybe he does not have a whole lot of experience with capitals, but idea makes sence, and is worth looking into. How can you judge something without having experience with it?
Bobbeh Minmatar Navy of Xoc Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.07.17 09:53:00 - [19] Ive always liked the idea of point defense guns but not on the capitals. Make a t2 destroyer thats a flak ship or something dont put it on capitals, if im flying my MS and i need to get drones off me i smartbomb with officer bombs and they pop nicely if little ships are bothering me i lauch appropriate drones 20 warrior 2's make quick work of most lil ships if they are in a bubble with ya.
Phootaba	Posted - 2009.07.17 11:11:00 - [20] Edited by: Phootaba on 17/07/2009 11:12:53 Originally by: Vyanr In the real, out of game world, during WWII; All naval military vessels had some sort of mounted machine gun to discourage aircraft from attacking them. Carriers and battleships had a very refined system that had a good chance of knocking almost anything that attacked the ship down. In almost all other sci-fi based universes, the capital ships have an established PDS to help defend the ships from smaller starfighter attack, and in some cases even against missiles. The point-defense system here is mainly a reasoning that, if logic denotes that capital ships are more often than not armed with some sort of anti-fighter/munition defense system that protects the ship in battle should be represented here as well. Real life, is real life. When bismarck sunk, it was hours and hours of intence atlantic chase and a mighty sea battle untill they sunk it/it sunk it self. How ever, point is that to sink such a ship you needed a couple of ships in it's size. Like Hms Hood (may they all rest in peace). Shure maybe a few topedo bombers got in a torpedo or more. Point is, Bismarck went solo, and died. No mather all the PDS on the ship. And Honestly, the only real threat an AA battery on a WWII ship could take down was fighters, becouse the danger, aka bombing airplanes were simply flying to high. So, if we put this into Eve (that is a game) Perhaps a titan could fend off a couple of Hobgoblin I's. No more, no less with a PDS. All the other ships simply have to much range. And why would anyone try to point a Titan with an interceptor, as the OP stated; only Hictors can accually hold Titans/MM's (and that's outside 20km range. I know, I'm a hictor pilot). So if your flagship goes flying on it's own, even with a PDS, that isn't overpowered, it aint going to do any difference really. A solo "flagship" dies, in Eve and in WWII. So, No support. Phoo Edit, minor spelling misstake.
Felix Mibaz	Posted - 2009.07.17 11:32:00 - [21] The best defense is not being alone and doing stupid things with your super cap(that you can't get out of). Which if you are flying it stupidly, you should lose the ship... Sometimes the hardest lesson, is the most expensive to learn. Not supported. PS - Not bashing you, don't even know you...
Ankhra Mainyu	Posted - 2009.07.17 13:36:00 - [22] Supported. It makes no sense for a powerful ship to be threatened by small ships that do not require much of a protection. On the other hand the balance factor of the game has to considered carefully.
AtheistOfDoom Amarr The Athiest Syndicate Advocated Destruction	Posted - 2009.07.17 21:53:00 - [23] Originally by: Ankhra Mainyu Supported. It makes no sense for a powerful ship to be threatened by small ships that do not require much of a protection. On the other hand the balance factor of the game has to considered carefully. Support fleets. capitals are not supposed to be solopwnmobiles. Pew Pew Lazorz!!!
darius mclever	Posted - 2009.07.17 22:54:00 - [24] Originally by: Ankhra Mainyu Supported. It makes no sense for a powerful ship to be threatened by small ships that do not require much of a protection. On the other hand the balance factor of the game has to considered carefully. If your cap ship pilot is stupid enough to engage a sub cap fleet without support, they deserve to die. it is as simple as that. we do not want the times back where motherships were basically invincible in lowsec.
Ardetia Caldari United Front Alliance	Posted - 2009.07.27 18:10:00 - [25] while it is laughable that a small fly can lock down a carrier 10 times its size or a titan 100 times its size i dont see this being a part of the solution ive always said i want capitals and super capitals to have inherent warp scramble strength such as ranging from carrier: 1 to titan: 3 up to CCP to make this whole ordeal less laughable :P

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