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[Explaination] Why we need infinite orders back.

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Nub Sauce	Posted - 2009.07.20 19:00:00 - [31] Edited by: Nub Sauce on 20/07/2009 19:38:23 This is one of those things that could potentially ruin the game. Basically it would it allow those with the most money to have absolute control of the entire market. No checks, no balances, just absolute control. While we're at it, perhaps they should add an ISK powered shield so that when you get hit. You'd have to lose all your ISK before you could even take damage. For most people, they'd never use it. But for those with 100s of billions... they would be invincible. = ruin game balance. If there was no limit to orders then we'd have two terrible things happen. 1) The big time traders with all the money would rule the market. No new traders would make any real money and even older part time traders would cease to see any real benefit to trading. Mission running time, eh? 2) You'd have the extremely annoying Rtards flooding the market with millions of orders selling 1 tritanium or some such garbage. Clogging the whole market up and making everyone's day just that much worse. Edit: Right now, at least it's possible to find a market item/area that hasn't been tapped yet and actually make some good money without having to devote your entire eve play time to marketing.
Caleb Ayrania Gallente TarNec New Eden Retail Federation	Posted - 2009.07.20 22:03:00 - [32] Originally by: Nub Sauce Edited by: Nub Sauce on 20/07/2009 19:38:23 This is one of those things that could potentially ruin the game. Basically it would it allow those with the most money to have absolute control of the entire market. No checks, no balances, just absolute control. While we're at it, perhaps they should add an ISK powered shield so that when you get hit. You'd have to lose all your ISK before you could even take damage. For most people, they'd never use it. But for those with 100s of billions... they would be invincible. = ruin game balance. If there was no limit to orders then we'd have two terrible things happen. 1) The big time traders with all the money would rule the market. No new traders would make any real money and even older part time traders would cease to see any real benefit to trading. Mission running time, eh? 2) You'd have the extremely annoying Rtards flooding the market with millions of orders selling 1 tritanium or some such garbage. Clogging the whole market up and making everyone's day just that much worse. Edit: Right now, at least it's possible to find a market item/area that hasn't been tapped yet and actually make some good money without having to devote your entire eve play time to marketing. Well 1 is basically already what is happening now, and also the nice protection of the "nontraded monopoly items", extremely relevant on moon stuff like dysprosium... On abusive placed orders.. Hmm if we had infinite orders a limit to injections of orders per 15 minutes would be possible. Also with that a limitation of timeframes and ranges could be added to the office rental, so time range above 24 hours and ranges outside 2-3 jumps could be office only features. This would help population distribution a bit.. micro managing orders gameplay is what we have atm, with bigger order books we would see a permanent price level enter the game on more items and the differences in these prices would reflect peoples patience and their logistic price markups.. Fact is to few traders are active in game, this is VERY obvious if you look at how many items are not traded and have no supply or demand at all. This is not because these items arent spread its just that with the limit the assets are parked in hangars and not placed on market for "rotation". This is slowing down item movement. Also if you look at how often in region difference in price develops to warrent any hauling, then you should notice how relevant the topic is.. Small piles simply arent traded with a high enough frequency.. especially those items that arent widely traded, and thus have little to no demand locally. We are living with Jita as the sole pricesetter, and even there some items arent traded even though their should have a value. Traders that would and should motivate these price developments cant be bothered because maintaining them simply isnt worth it with the current order limitation.. Thus the markets will never pick up and extremely low or extremely high prices is the result. - Money is Love - Sometimes it just gets bend the wrong ways. Feed your Brain: Innovation Thread
Joe Starbreaker The Fighting Republicans	Posted - 2009.07.20 22:54:00 - [33] Like in the real world, where a single company can trade every single good and service, in every quantity and style and color, at any place and time to any customer, with any currency. Right? Think of Tycoon level V as being like Walmart. Yes, you can trade everything from bathroom towels to potato chips to motor oil. That's a lot, and it gives you an advantage, but it is a far cry from selling everything in the world. Your "monopolist" argument is absurd, of course. That's exactly what you want -- one firm to rule them all, one firm to bind them, one firm to find them all and in the darkness bind them. Market niches create the possibility and incentive for people to specialize and trade with one another. Adapt or die. -/ the fighting republicans /-
Caleb Ayrania Gallente TarNec New Eden Retail Federation	Posted - 2009.07.21 11:19:00 - [34] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker Like in the real world, where a single company can trade every single good and service, in every quantity and style and color, at any place and time to any customer, with any currency. Right? Think of Tycoon level V as being like Walmart. Yes, you can trade everything from bathroom towels to potato chips to motor oil. That's a lot, and it gives you an advantage, but it is a far cry from selling everything in the world. Your "monopolist" argument is absurd, of course. That's exactly what you want -- one firm to rule them all, one firm to bind them, one firm to find them all and in the darkness bind them. Market niches create the possibility and incentive for people to specialize and trade with one another. Adapt or die. The argument seem to be the same .. That if there was infinite orders again, then a few could cover and rule the entire market.. I would have tended to agree back when the limitation was first introduced. The limitation on coverage made sense to grant easier access to markets for new players. However as is rather easy to see taking a look at the market saturation and item trade coverage the trader population is simply to small to cover a dynamic market in EVE. The items traded with any noticable frequency is only those that generally all players have interests in, the more specific niche items have next to no activity anywhere... This makes trade in these items so niche that they are either weirdly underpriced or extremely overpriced. The price dynamic is suffering and the markets are stale and in actuallity borring in most items outside high volume items. Also even though the claim that this would benefit "tycoons" the fact of current market is that tycoons have even more market control then in a liberal one with infinite diversification option, and also manipulation is a pure numbers game and a great number of tycoons are taking extreme advantage from this.. I have happily played the game since 2003 and the orer nerf has not made me rage quit. I am doing quite fine in this enviroment, but I still feel the gameplay on market and industrialism would highly improve and benefit more players with the mentioned suggestion.. - Money is Love - Sometimes it just gets bend the wrong ways. Feed your Brain: Innovation Thread
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.07.21 11:54:00 - [35] oh dear, no we dont need infinite orders. This would lead to spammed and intransparent markets! I've trained Tycoon V and this is enough, you have just to select trading items to the most profitable ones.
Caleb Ayrania Gallente TarNec New Eden Retail Federation	Posted - 2009.07.21 13:39:00 - [36] Originally by: Robert Caldera oh dear, no we dont need infinite orders. This would lead to spammed and intransparent markets! I've trained Tycoon V and this is enough, you have just to select trading items to the most profitable ones. Funny you claim exactly the opposite. Intransperent market prices is what we have now, with items not traded and extreme manipulation going on. Infinite or at least extreme boost to number of outstanding orders would make this diversification possible with the low number of traders. At least if you want to argue against this idea explain and use arguments. Personally I find it rather annoyiing that so many items arent traded, since the profit then all goes to the same protectionistic groups, that have monopolized these areas. Again to repeat myself the dysprosium and similar items are the best examples of this current phenomenon. - Money is Love - Sometimes it just gets bend the wrong ways. Feed your Brain: Innovation Thread
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.07.21 13:58:00 - [37] tbh, I dont understand your problem. For me, spammed market = intransparent market. What is intransparent now?
Khoda Khan Minmatar Zantiu-Braun Corporation Zantiu-Braun Alliance	Posted - 2009.07.21 13:59:00 - [38] /not signed. We have enough shuttles on the market for 8,888,888.88. Don't need an infinite number more.
Caleb Ayrania Gallente TarNec New Eden Retail Federation	Posted - 2009.07.21 14:15:00 - [39] Hmmm. Last I checked many active orders and realized orders = efficient and fast market equilibrium.. The faster a market can respond and find a "real price" the better it is for gameplay as well as the game economy.. Just because there are abusive elements that dont mean a feature should be removed. WE still have a bounty system even though its sort of a joke that you can strip off your own bounties. Finding a solution to the griefers and exploiters is not suposed to stop development of the game.. The shackles brought with market orders was a twin shackles solution. The escrow limitation is more then enough. Although I would personally like it if orders timed above 24 hours and ranges outside 3 jumps would necessitate an office hangar access. The later limitation is to have daytraders open still for anyone, but limiting longer termed investements to bigger groups and thus promote more coop and pvp and less pve. - Money is Love - Sometimes it just gets bend the wrong ways. Feed your Brain: Innovation Thread
Joe Starbreaker The Fighting Republicans	Posted - 2009.07.21 16:56:00 - [40] Originally by: Caleb Ayrania This makes trade in these items so niche that they are either weirdly underpriced or extremely overpriced. Bingo! Price disparities = opportunity for trade! So what exactly is the problem? -/ the fighting republicans /-
Joe Starbreaker The Fighting Republicans	Posted - 2009.07.21 16:58:00 - [41] Originally by: Caleb Ayrania The faster a market can respond and find a "real price" the better it is for gameplay as well as the game economy... LOL, you fail at economics. If all prices were the same everywhere, why would anyone trade? Irregularities are what create the opportunity. -/ the fighting republicans /-
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.07.21 17:14:00 - [42] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker So what exactly is the problem? maybe that he probably wants to spam the market with scam orders
Caleb Ayrania Gallente TarNec New Eden Retail Federation	Posted - 2009.07.21 17:14:00 - [43] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker Originally by: Caleb Ayrania The faster a market can respond and find a "real price" the better it is for gameplay as well as the game economy... LOL, you fail at economics. If all prices were the same everywhere, why would anyone trade? Irregularities are what create the opportunity. Well the ad hominem approach aside.. The prices would not be the same in all regions, but more regions would actually have more items traded and not so many market holes and slow reacting markets.. This is still all about a fairly small amount of traders simulating a world size that is quite considerable, and without an opportunity to reflect this with more orders all traders will need to group in a small number of HUBS.. In short the only places the prices have any real dynamic and reacts even minutely towards a new equilibrium is in places like Jita.. Maybe taking a look at items outside your normal traded items will make people see the point. There are so many markets that might have potential to be opened but due to the opportunity cost and risk of losses in that these new markets wont develop, then no one tries opening them.. Might want to check buy price and value on a little thing like Arkenor raw ORE, that could show what this rant is all about.. - Money is Love - Sometimes it just gets bend the wrong ways. Feed your Brain: Innovation Thread
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.07.21 22:41:00 - [44] Originally by: Caleb Ayrania Might want to check buy price and value on a little thing like Arkenor raw ORE, that could show what this rant is all about.. So? Whats wrong with them?
Joe Starbreaker The Fighting Republicans	Posted - 2009.07.21 23:09:00 - [45] Originally by: Caleb Ayrania Might want to check buy price and value on a little thing like Arkenor raw ORE, that could show what this rant is all about.. Yes, please enlighten us. What is it about? -/ the fighting republicans /-
Caleb Ayrania Gallente TarNec New Eden Retail Federation	Posted - 2009.07.22 12:07:00 - [46] Well its fairly simple really.. There are 3 variants of Arkenor. Why is only the normal one bought in Jita at something close to a "real" price? The reason is that the potential volumes are to small to warrent initiating the market for the rarer variants. The traders wont "waste" their orders, thus no buy develops. Since there is no buy then no sellers will start bringing it to sell, and thus hoard it till they can either refine (even with minor loss) or resell in bulk somehow.. The result is small volumes arent being used and thus effectively slows the game economy. The contracts trade is meant for packages and for bulk. The SCC is shackled by the order limitation and passive assets, crassus hoarding and protectionistic and monopolistic economy is the result.. - Money is Love - Sometimes it just gets bend the wrong ways. Feed your Brain: Innovation Thread
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.07.22 14:37:00 - [47] so because there is nobody willing to trade rarely used goods we should allow market spamming, is that right?? If you think the good is worth trading why dont you spend one of your valuable slots for that??
Cali Serrano Baptism oF Fire Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2009.07.22 15:24:00 - [48] I believe the market works just fine as is. Currently there is reason to haul things from region to region and I don't believe there is anyone with a monopoly on a single item. These low volume trade items you speak of are items NO ONE WANTS ... or at least rarely. An increase in available trade orders is not going to do anything but increase the discrepancy between items for sale and items sold, hence causing the problem you see to get worse while having negative aspects elsewhere. One of which could ( and probably would be to a degree ) of price equilibrium being reached between regions and less reason for trade. I'm going to say not a good idea. Also to your arkonor arguement, it's mostly found in deep 0.0, it's bulky while it's refined minerals are not. To haul the raw product all the way into a market hub is not a very cost effective compared to the amount of refined minerals you can fit compared to raw ore. That's the reason you get so little. And the 'unreal' price you see for the variants is because not a lot makes it to the hub but some one has found a niche market of making money off the little that does. So in that regard, the market is actually representing what is going on very nicely I.E. supply and demand. There is no supply or demand for the arkonor variations in the market hubs themselves, that's why the prices are off.
Joe Starbreaker The Fighting Republicans	Posted - 2009.07.22 18:04:00 - [49] Originally by: Robert Caldera If you think the good is worth trading why dont you spend one of your valuable slots for that?? this -/ the fighting republicans /-
Caleb Ayrania Gallente TarNec New Eden Retail Federation	Posted - 2009.07.29 07:58:00 - [50] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker Originally by: Robert Caldera If you think the good is worth trading why dont you spend one of your valuable slots for that?? this Quite simple really.. Without infinite or at least a big increase in orders players are forced to either JUNK SELL, as in sell to any lame grief prices order as in a fraction of the value, or they are forced to recycle it, this destroys and increase the items price artificially and is bad for distribution mechanics, last to haul the item to a better venue to sell. Looking in one of my current hangars I see 800+ different items, and this mainly loot and ammo. Lets say I wanted this handed of the loss I would sell this at with insta sell is way beyond 25-50% below avg. This is not acceptable to me so I would at least like the function of being able to set it up for sale at a good price for those that would take it off my hands, say 10-25% below avg value. Due note I am using avg and not outlying price differences. With more orders this is exactly one of the things you would see develop a market saturated with many orders of different ranges and thus warranting way more opportune buy and sales. Another important thing you would see with a huge number of orders is instead of the 0,01 isk wars opportune trims/buyups of current market levels would be seen. This would be a trade strategy based on market intel and future investments.. A freakish thing you see in current market is that BIGGER PILES have a markup in price. This is a rather market wise weird phenomenon, because sure the package of a specific huge volume could mean a price markup, but the loss on broker fees if the order times out is big, thus we are forced to do the server straining update game, instead of relying on rotating the universal supply in stockpiles. On an end note I was around when there was infinite orders in EVE, and the market was easier to service even though population of traders was still an issue.. So its not like I havent got any background knowledge of this.. Back then it was possible to abuse mainly due to no need for escrow.. Now with escrow some limitation will make sure things are balanced. Tycoon wannabe go here: SCC Lounge Got Game? Peak a boo...

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