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Haulie Berry
109
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Posted - 2012.05.23 15:18:00 -
[1] - Quote
I glossed over it on my first read through of the patch notes and had to go back to look for it after I saw the effects ingame:
Fixed an issue where BPCs invented with decryptors would sometimes have one less production run than they should have.
What this means is that, now, if you use a decryptor on a 1run BPC, you still get all of the bonus runs. Previously using a +2 run decryptor on a 1 run BPC would produce 2 runs instead of 3.
This meant that, for ship invention, if you wanted to use a decryptor you realistically had to use a full run BPC to avoid "losing" a run (and thus exploding your invention cost-per-output-run). Full run ship copies take a long time.
This is no longer the case.
This is a fairly substantial change, as now you can ALWAYS use a 1-run BPC for ship invention, cutting out what was, by far, the largest time factor.
This has an effect on the landscape. |

Katja Faith
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
112
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 15:30:00 -
[2] - Quote
Haulie Berry wrote:I glossed over it on my first read through of the patch notes and had to go back to look for it after I saw the effects ingame:
Fixed an issue where BPCs invented with decryptors would sometimes have one less production run than they should have.
What this means is that, now, if you use a decryptor on a 1run BPC, you still get all of the bonus runs. Previously using a +2 run decryptor on a 1 run BPC would produce 2 runs instead of 3.
This meant that, for ship invention, if you wanted to use a decryptor you realistically had to use a full run BPC to avoid "losing" a run (and thus exploding your invention cost-per-output-run). Full run ship copies take a long time.
This is no longer the case.
This is a fairly substantial change, as now you can ALWAYS use a 1-run BPC for ship invention, cutting out what was, by far, the largest time factor.
This has an effect on the landscape.
CCP admits to fixing a bug that they didn't talk about? Stunned. |

Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor Intrepid Crossing
300
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 15:31:00 -
[3] - Quote
I saw that but didn't have time to test it yet. Did you test this out? If it happens like you say it does, which is possible but I'm not completely sure, then it is a big change.
I wonder if it was a glitch that happened sometimes and not others under certain circumstances and not something that is a big a change. Maximze your Industry Potential! - Get EVE Isk per Hour! |

Haulie Berry
109
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Posted - 2012.05.23 15:34:00 -
[4] - Quote
Zifrian wrote:I saw that but didn't have time to test it yet. Did you test this out? If it happens like you say it does, which is possible but I'm not completely sure, then it is a big change.
I wonder if it was a glitch that happened sometimes and not others under certain circumstances and not something that is a big a change.
I did an invention job on a 1 run drone damage amp BPC this morning with a Test Reports and got 10 output runs.
Admittedly, I'm assuming this will hold for ships and the like - I have not had a chance to do a ship job yet. |

Etharion Calthon
6
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Posted - 2012.05.23 15:55:00 -
[5] - Quote
Haulie:
Great post...also noticed this yesterday inventing the new T2 Small Overclocking Rig, and got 3-run BPCs with Sacred Manifesto on a single-run copy. This is amazing news! At first I thought it was just a glitch with the new BPO, but alas, its all but confirmed now.
Great day for inventors all over the Cluster!
|

Skippermonkey
Tactical Knightmare
1005
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 16:27:00 -
[6] - Quote
great...
if true, how long till EVE isk Per Hour gets update on it Ziffy? My homeboys tried to warn me But that butt you got makes me so horny |

Salo Aldeland
Luma Operations
50
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 18:03:00 -
[7] - Quote
Really?! That was a bug all along? I thought it was a feature!
/dance |

Akrasjel Lanate
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
728
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Posted - 2012.05.23 18:39:00 -
[8] - Quote
aka Farming datacores with guns. |

clixor
Celluloid Gurus
26
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 19:19:00 -
[9] - Quote
For the BPC copiers this could be seen as a nerf as their max run BPC's are pretty worthless now.
|

Salo Aldeland
Luma Operations
50
|
Posted - 2012.05.24 01:13:00 -
[10] - Quote
clixor wrote:For the BPC copiers this could be seen as a nerf as their max run BPC's are pretty worthless now.
I love that a niche industry developed on its own in order to fill a demand caused by a bug. |

Haulie Berry
112
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Posted - 2012.05.24 19:19:00 -
[11] - Quote
clixor wrote:For the BPC copiers this could be seen as a nerf as their max run BPC's are pretty worthless now.
Good. Maybe indie newblets will be able to find the occasional public copy slot, now. |

Industrializata
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.24 19:56:00 -
[12] - Quote
so for example a 1 run bpc of 425 mm railgun has the same chance of invention like a 300 run one?
the output will be 1 run of t2 -4/-4 ?
and for a 300 run one the output will be a 10 run of t2 -4/-4 ?
assuming that the invention process is succesfull.
thanks in advance!
|

Haulie Berry
112
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Posted - 2012.05.24 20:03:00 -
[13] - Quote
Industrializata wrote:so for example a 1 run bpc of 425 mm railgun has the same chance of invention like a 300 run one?
the output will be 1 run of t2 -4/-4 ?
and for a 300 run one the output will be a 10 run of t2 -4/-4 ?
assuming that the invention process is succesfull.
thanks in advance!
The success chance is the same regardless of the number of runs used - this hasn't changed (though decryptors will alter the success rate).
This change applies only to the number of output runs produced when a decryptor affecting the output runs is used.
Previously, if you used a +9 run decryptor on a 1 run bpc of 425mm railgun, a successful attempt would produce a 9 run 425mm railgun II BPC.
If you used no decryptor, you would get a 1 run BPC - so 1 + 9 would still equal 9. One run would be lost.
Now it will produce a 10 run BPC - the 1 run you would have gotten had you not used a decryptor, plus the 9 runs from the decryptor.
So, previously:
1 run, no decryptor = 1 output run 1 run, + 9 decryptor = 9 output runs 300 run, no decryptor = 10 output runs 300 runs, +9 decryptor = 19 output runs.
NOW:
1 run, no decryptor = 1 output run 1 run, + 9 decryptor = 10 output runs 300 run, no decryptor = 10 output runs 300 runs, +9 decryptor = 19 output runs.
This is important for ship (and, to a lesser degree, rigs) invention, because the base output runs on a ship invention job are always 1, even with a full run BPC. The only way to get more than 1 ouput run was to use a decryptor, but if you used a decryptor with a 1 run BPC, you would lose one of your "bonus" decryptor runs.
Now you do not. So, if you want to use a decryptor for ship invention jobs, you can do it with a 1 run BPC, saving yourself the vast majority of the copy time required, and you won't lose any of your bonus decryptor runs. |

Sienaris
Corellian Trading Corporation
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.26 14:54:00 -
[14] - Quote
this should empty a lot of copy lines in npc stations from high sec :) and remove some POS-es that no longer are needed |

Lady Naween
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
21
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Posted - 2012.05.27 02:37:00 -
[15] - Quote
huh.. i didnt even notice that. oh crap wrong char but meh to lazy to change. \ thats a good find :) |

Tadeo Musashy
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2012.05.27 03:28:00 -
[16] - Quote
this IS indeed a nice buff / tweak (if confirmed not to be a VU "bug") - thanks for sharing... as you already said it would need a confirmation fior ships though - mostly for the sake of science, as IMO anything other the -1 ME its almost useless for ships... (valid untill finally some new decryptors types will be available / introduced) |

Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor Intrepid Crossing
313
|
Posted - 2012.05.27 03:47:00 -
[17] - Quote
I've updated EVE IPH with this change. I did some testing on Sisi and found it to be true with 1 run BPCs. I haven't tried ship invention yet but will tomorrow.
I'm not sure it's going to have such a huge affect on invention overall. It's actually a great fix for something that seemed so stupid in the past (I honestly think it was a typo if the formula is right). I guess you don't have to wait for long copy times on ships but you won't get out the extra runs either. So it'll all be a wash I'm betting. Maximze your Industry Potential! - Get EVE Isk per Hour! |

Lone Gunman
Forhotea Corporation Infernal Creations
18
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Posted - 2012.05.28 10:03:00 -
[18] - Quote
I just tested this with ship invention Kestrel 1 run BPC with "User Manual" Decryptor and the result was a 3 run -3ME Manticore BPC. |

Lutz Major
Austriae Est Imperare Orbi Universo
290
|
Posted - 2012.05.28 11:54:00 -
[19] - Quote
Bye bye, nice and complex game play ...
Welcome, mass-gaming suitable easy rules!
 |

Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor Intrepid Crossing
317
|
Posted - 2012.05.28 12:11:00 -
[20] - Quote
Lutz Major wrote:Bye bye, nice and complex game play ... Welcome, mass-gaming suitable easy rules!  How is it any less complex? If anything, it finally fixed an inconsistency that should have been corrected long ago and the effect will be minimal. I'm actually surprised someone at CCP actually took the time to look at it. Maximze your Industry Potential! - Get EVE Isk per Hour! |

clixor
Celluloid Gurus
26
|
Posted - 2012.05.29 08:27:00 -
[21] - Quote
Zifrian wrote:Lutz Major wrote:Bye bye, nice and complex game play ... Welcome, mass-gaming suitable easy rules!  How is it any less complex? If anything, it finally fixed an inconsistency that should have been corrected long ago and the effect will be minimal. I'm actually surprised someone at CCP actually took the time to look at it.
For T2 producers (especially focussing on T2 ships) ofcourse this 'fix' is a godsend. But really i didn't see anything particuliary wrong with the former situation. In the end it was a rational choice players had; do i invest in multiple BPO's? And is the isk for copying worth the +1 run on the T2 BPC?
By removing the choice per definition the system is less complex without judging if the particular change is good or bad.
|

Haulie Berry
127
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Posted - 2012.05.29 13:26:00 -
[22] - Quote
Lutz Major wrote:Bye bye, nice and complex game play ... Welcome, mass-gaming suitable easy rules! 
Always wondered if anyone would be a big enough ******* to gripe about a basic arithmetic fix. Turns out I shouldn't have. |

Tadeo Musashy
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
7
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 07:01:00 -
[23] - Quote
Haulie Berry wrote:Lutz Major wrote:Bye bye, nice and complex game play ... Welcome, mass-gaming suitable easy rules!  Always wondered if anyone would be a big enough ******* to gripe about a basic arithmetic fix. Turns out I shouldn't have.
welcome into the "fair" word of everybody has his own agenda...
most likely some ppl who had a nice bussines selling maxruns copies took a nice litle hit from this "fix" - depending on their T1BPOs library they found they have some sunken iskies therefore they have a legit reason to whinne about this "fix"... its just another example of my "changes on the run" is bad theory... errr... ofc we can put it your way: "its a nice buff to invention mechanics" and i would have to agree with that (especially when i wont need to pay or copy maxruns to have better runs outputed t2 copies)... but what about ppl who may find their bussines sliced or ruined after this "fix" altho they made the "bussines plan" considering the rules inplace?
pls note i'm not whinning nor criticizing this particular "fix" (and neither any other past, current or future changes)... i'm just pointing again on the unfairness of "changes on the run" without compensations! |

Haulie Berry
146
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Posted - 2012.05.30 14:30:00 -
[24] - Quote
And, like you, they will not be compensated - nor do they deserve to be. Thing is, the first rule is that the rules are going to change. In fact, that the rules change every six months or so is considered to be a fairly major marketing point of the game. Every player is aware of this and has already explicitly agreed (more than once, most likely) to play under those terms, which makes crying about it when the rules do change both infantile and nonsensical.
It's right there in the EULA:
Quote:E. New Releases of the Software
You are not entitled to receive any new releases of the Software, or any expansion packs, updates, upgrades or similar products under the EULA, but CCP may, in its sole discretion, offer any or all of the foregoing to you. CCP may update, upgrade or otherwise enhance the Software at any time, in its sole discretion, without obligation to you. |

Tadeo Musashy
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
7
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 23:53:00 -
[25] - Quote
Haulie Berry wrote:And, like you, they will not be compensated - nor do they deserve to be. Thing is, the first rule is that the rules are going to change. In fact, that the rules change every six months or so is considered to be a fairly major marketing point of the game. Every player is aware of this and has already explicitly agreed (more than once, most likely) to play under those terms, which makes crying about it when the rules do change both infantile and nonsensical. It's right there in the EULA: Quote:E. New Releases of the Software
You are not entitled to receive any new releases of the Software, or any expansion packs, updates, upgrades or similar products under the EULA, but CCP may, in its sole discretion, offer any or all of the foregoing to you. CCP may update, upgrade or otherwise enhance the Software at any time, in its sole discretion, without obligation to you.
the above chunk from EULA is reffing to the software - but ofc, if you find it suitable you could quote it for your odd purpose of promising me i wont be compensated.... all that like i'd be after some stuff from your inventory or some of your SPs...
in the same time CCP Ytterbium have here a way more adequate, fair and tolerant oppinion - i'm quoting below:
"... While we do acknowledge that initial the initial period to train up for high-level research agents take times, effort and money, we are not particularly fond of the passive datacore income in general. Indeed, once the initial requirements are met, this is not so much of an active profession and more of a passive collection of items, which we want to look at. ......
While our current intention is to turn datacore gathering into more of an active profession than it currently is, we will be following feedback closely to make sure players that invested time into Research corporations are not abandoned, most likely by making further changes to them in the next release...."
i wonder if you really cant see i'm right - or its just some sort of "forum attitude"... |

Haulie Berry
156
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 23:58:00 -
[26] - Quote
Quote:the above chunk from EULA is reffing to the software - but ofc, if you find it suitable you could quote it for your odd purpose of promising me i wont be compensated.... all that like i'd be after some stuff from your inventory or some of your SPs...
Read it again.
Quote:E. New Releases of the Software
You are not entitled to receive any new releases of the Software, or any expansion packs, updates, upgrades or similar products under the EULA, but CCP may, in its sole discretion, offer any or all of the foregoing to you. CCP may update, upgrade or otherwise enhance the Software at any time, in its sole discretion, without obligation to you.
"The Software" in this context refers to the game itself, as well as all of its component parts, including mechanics, rules, UI, etc.
Quote:While our current intention is to turn datacore gathering into more of an active profession than it currently is, we will be following feedback closely to make sure players that invested time into Research corporations are not abandoned, most likely by making further changes to them in the next release...."
...and? That doesn't sound like you're getting compensated to me. Sounds like, at best, they will simply make it marginally more competitive with FW - but make no mistake, it's never going to be what it was. |

Tadeo Musashy
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
7
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 00:25:00 -
[27] - Quote
Haulie Berry wrote: ...and? That doesn't sound like you're getting compensated to me. Sounds like, at best, they will simply make it marginally more competitive with FW - but make no mistake, it's never going to be what it was.
who said anything about "things should roll back the way they were"? i have no problem to agree (most of) the changes indeed improve the gameplay / gameexperience... that is overall but also for me... ONE MORE TIME: what i'm really after is for them to admit "changes on the run are unfair but necesary" and to make it officialy by offering some shty formal 1 free skillpoint as welldeserved compensation for players that got affected in the proccess...
no harm ment but is my english THAT bad? |

Tugarin Zmey
AZK UBER ALLES
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.14 09:19:00 -
[28] - Quote
So, looks like this formula isn't correct now? CCP, would you please post a right one? |

Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor Intrepid Crossing
349
|
Posted - 2012.06.17 11:48:00 -
[29] - Quote
Tugarin Zmey wrote:So, looks like this formula isn't correct now? CCP, would you please post a right one? This is what I've been using and it seems to work.
InventedRuns = Math.Min(Math.Ceiling((Input_T1_BPC_Runs / T1_BPC_MaxRuns) * (T2_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy / 10) + Decryptor_Runs_Bonus), T2_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy)
Main difference is I've removed the round down part from the formula. Maximze your Industry Potential! - Get EVE Isk per Hour! |

Tugarin Zmey
AZK UBER ALLES
1
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 14:04:00 -
[30] - Quote
Zifrian wrote:
InventedRuns = Math.Min(Math.Ceiling((Input_T1_BPC_Runs / T1_BPC_MaxRuns) * (T2_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy / 10) + Decryptor_Runs_Bonus), T2_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy)
Main difference is I've removed the round down part from the formula.
Did you mean Math.Max instead of Math.Ceiling? |

Fynen
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
17
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 03:34:00 -
[31] - Quote
Tugarin Zmey wrote:Zifrian wrote:
InventedRuns = Math.Min(Math.Ceiling((Input_T1_BPC_Runs / T1_BPC_MaxRuns) * (T2_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy / 10) + Decryptor_Runs_Bonus), T2_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy)
Main difference is I've removed the round down part from the formula.
Did you mean Math.Max instead of Math.Ceiling?
Math.Max would require two parameters, of which the higher one gets choosen. Seems to me the change isn't as simple as that... hm... but how would that formular look nowadays then? |
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