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Time to undo the T2 ammo pre-nerf?

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4THELULZ	Posted - 2009.07.23 18:46:00 - [1] I'm taking a guess here - CCP thought that tech 2 short range ammo would be overpowered, and so they put it in-game with horrendous, unusable drawbacks so they could tweak it over time, much like they did with bombs. At least that's the only explanation I can think of for the massively overdone pre-emptive nerf batting they subjected it to. But how about making this stuff, you know, good? Let's take Void ammo for example - this has the makings of a great charge. Better range than antimatter, marginally better damage, a perfect reward for training to t2 guns. But then you get tracking so appalling you end up outdamaging it with antimatter because it misses so much. The others are in a similarly unpleasant state. Go ahead and let them have a drawback to use, but don't make it so ridiculously over the top that faction ammo is better almost all the time. It's not likely to be that difficult to implement, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who'd like to see it become useful.
Duke Starbuckington	Posted - 2009.07.23 18:48:00 - [2] Edited by: Duke Starbuckington on 23/07/2009 18:51:40 bang bang I like guns too How about you fix all ammo so that there aren't only 2 type worth using for each gun.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.07.23 21:30:00 - [3] It was a "post" nerf. They were put in game with little drawback and nerfed hard after a time. Never recovered.
King Rothgar Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.07.24 07:51:00 - [4] Agreed, conflagration is just stupid. It does the same damage as AN multi and has same range but has 1/2 the tracking without additional benefit. Its problems are typical for short range t2 ammo. Lots of disadvantages with no real advantage over faction.

CCP Fallout	Posted - 2009.07.24 07:56:00 - [5] Moved to features and ideas channel.

Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.07.24 08:04:00 - [6] yep, never used it, and when I used against corp recommendation, it I've regret that. T2 munition is for dogs and should be un-nerfed again.
Onys Cissalc	Posted - 2009.07.24 09:02:00 - [7] T2 short ranged ammo used to be overpowered. Think Quake M with only a 25% penalty to tracking speed and no max velocity penalty. Think Scorch with no signature radius or shield HP penalties. Think Void with no tracking penalty at all (at least, this is how I remember it being), better range and just a slightly higher cap usage than it has now. Think Scourge Fury that always hurt like hell regardless of whether your target was moving/painted or not (provided it was at least as large as a cruiser or larger). Dunno - the current damage advantages the different short-ranged ammos have outweigh their suckiness against their faction ammo counterparts (with exception to faction multifrequency, wtq?). Sure you can't track the broad side of a deathstar while moving at a pitiable 50m/s within 2km flying a Rifter, but hey - it shouldn't be able to track you either, right?
Abrazzar	Posted - 2009.07.24 09:33:00 - [8] Well, the penalties should be adjusted for their stacking. For example, the speed penalty of -14% you get for every single Javelin M loaded gun. It should be divided by a number similar to the amount of guns you can fit on that size, like 5 or 6 for medium, 3 or 4 for small and 7 or 8 for large. Right now you come practically to a standstill when loading Javelin and that's quite debilitating when you're in close range combat. In any way, the penalties should be investigated again and adjusted for a better balance.
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2009.07.24 12:19:00 - [9] Edited by: Sidus Isaacs on 24/07/2009 12:19:34 Originally by: Duke Starbuckington Edited by: Duke Starbuckington on 23/07/2009 18:51:40 bang bang I like guns too How about you fix all ammo so that there aren't only 2 type worth using for each gun. Imo, I use antimatter, uranium and thorium often enough. Even lead and sometimes iron/spike. A lot of ships can benfit from use of different ammo. Even on minmater I use EMP, Phased Plasma (and the other one thats got a name thats eludeing me atm), and barrage. Amarr is mostly Multi, Scroch and sometimes Xray/Gamma/Radio/Ultraviolet. The last 4 not as foten tho. For missiles, well, I use Javelines a whole lot less then I used to after they got nerfed into oblivion. But they are not uselss, and I still use them from time to time. Missile damage types speak for it self. So if you only use 2 types of ammo, you are doing it very very wrong imo. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
murder one Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.07.24 22:21:00 - [10] The high damage short range stuff needs to have it's tracking penalties removed completely, and the drawbacks don't need to stack. There just needs to be a flat penalty. -murder one [07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now? [07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2
Xorth Adimus Caldari The Perfect Storm Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2009.07.24 23:44:00 - [11] Please don't make all T2 ammo usable by unnerfing it.. .. We love not using the large number of failed or poorly designed features and other working features you have simply nerfed to death, it makes EVE much much simpler to play.. Also please keep adding other such features without fixing the old ones. I know the game designers love all the hard work they do adding more features that will never be used or they will be so badly nerfed, noone in their right mind will use it. Also please feel free to post this one up on the wall as a motivational poster guys.
Ravenal The Fated E.Y	Posted - 2009.07.25 03:21:00 - [12] pre nerf seems to be the accepted way to introduce new stuff. Some of us remember how it was before new things were prenerfed when put into the game then nerfed horribly a bit later. Originally by: 4THELULZ At least that's the only explanation I can think of for the massively overdone pre-emptive nerf batting they subjected it to. But how about making this stuff, you know, good? Let's take Void ammo for example - this has the makings of a great charge. Better range than antimatter, marginally better damage, a perfect reward for training to t2 guns. But then you get tracking so appalling you end up outdamaging it with antimatter because it misses so much. There is a "hidden" bonus to using t2 guns which is the t2 gun spec skill... up to 10% more damage with that type of gun. However that applies with any kind of ammo (unfortunately?) Originally by: 4THELULZ The others are in a similarly unpleasant state. Go ahead and let them have a drawback to use, but don't make it so ridiculously over the top that faction ammo is better almost all the time. It's not likely to be that difficult to implement, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who'd like to see it become useful. I do agree that t2 ammo is still too pre-nerfed ... I still think that the REAL problem is the faction ammo. It is simply too good (no pre-nerfing?!?) Here I am talking about the LP store faction ammo... the loot faction ammo can be uber good for all I care. The real mismatch is between T2 ammo and LP store faction ammo. One problem with LP store faction ammo is that you don't have to spend tags to get it, unlike other faction gear. Take t2 missiles for example: Caldari navy torps vs rage torps. Without taking the "signature radius bonus" into account what does the rage torp have over the caldari navy one? 11% more damage 44% higher explosion radius (bad mkay) 10m/s less explosion velocity (very bad - 61m/s base) 250m/s less speed So, total of 4 BAD attributes to get 11% more damage ... whoopty bloody doo. Interestingly enough if you take a look at cruise missiles (fury vs caldari navy) 11% more damage 83% higher explosion radius (wtf - at 550 its 100 higher than a normal torp) 9m/s less explosion velocity no reduction on missile speed (I guess the explosion radius is bad enough) So what does this mean? Typhoon 320 signature radius - base speed 130 m/s (no skills - dont add the missile skills either so its even) Standard shield extended drake 450 signature radius(ish) - 140 m/s Rokh 500 signature radius - speed 89 m/s First of all speed has a HUGE impact on the final damage. The fact that none of the torps even has the same explosion velocity as the slowest battleship ... (and oddly enough the cruise missiles have lower explosion velocity than standard torps) is just silly. Sure, it is "easy" enough to web a target down to 71m/s (58m/s in case of cruise fury) + skills ... but ...! Take the average base speed of any ship class, a missile of the same size class should do 100% damage to that ship at that speed if all else is equal (skills and what have you) Take the average signature radius of any ship class, a missile of the same size class should do 100% damage to that ship if all else is equal. Adding the t2 penalties into the mixture ... the increased signature radius for high damage missiles more than negates the 11% base damage increase the missile has over its faction variant AND even in the case of t1 torp (42% higher damage) it is still doing less damage. The only bonus the t2 rage torp is getting is higher damage POTENTIAL with the help of modules like webs and painters ... on to ammo... Quake L (artillery short range t2 ammo) -75% range vs -50% for emp L and its faction variants. 56 base damage vs 50.6 for the republic fleet emp L (10.6%) + 10% velocity penalty (per gun) + 12% cap recharge penalty (per gun) ... yeah big whoopty for extra 11% damage or so over LP store faction stuff. .
steave435 Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.07.25 03:52:00 - [13] Faction ammo beating T2 ammo isn't a problem, officer is supposed to beat complex, complex beat faction, faction beat T2, T2 beat T1. The problem is faction ammo is too easy to get, unlike other faction items, so it's considered the norm rather then luxuary like other faction is, and the fact that for close range, T1 non-faction has better effective damage then T2 due to tracking penalty.

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