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Ender2006
APOCALYPSE LEGION
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Posted - 2009.07.24 00:18:00 -
[1]
So, jeveassets is officially the coolest program ever written for eve and I'm still debating what to get Golden Gnu as a prize.
With that in mind, and conscientious of this forum's love for audits, I'm offering a new feature I would love to see added to future audits. Visible asset disclosure. Illustrated below. This is not meant to take the place of audits but would be a useful addition to them I believe to reassure future investors. Since I've decided against one this is an attempt to meet at the middle ground and stroke my ego. Person who posts the highest assets wins at Eve!! :-P Enjoy!
Ender2006
Ender's Asset Summary
+4bln in IRD bonds
+2.37bln sell orders
+0.341bln isk
+0.6bln APAX bank
Jasmine2006
Jasmine's Assets
+12.460bln in corp wallet
+0.148bln isk
+9.873bln sell orders
+8bln in bs bpos (me50)
+5bln in cap component bpos
+1bln in bc bpos
Estimated Assets
75.995
Estimated Liabilities
20bln +2bln/month = 26bln
Net Assets
49.995b
This is by no means intended to be a full disclosure of assets or accounts. Just an example of how awesome jeveassets is :-P
As a side note I still think audits are a waste of time and offer the following evidence...
According to Cosmoray's latest risk assessment document.
2/26 low risk ventures have had audits (7.7%)
18/32 medium risk ventures have had audits (56.3%)
6/15 high risk ventures have had audits (40.0%)
Since an audit would not appear to correlate with the perceived level of risk, and certainly has been demonstrated to be far from the most important determining factor in the ability to obtain funds, I would argue that there are better ways to spend ones time. Namely developing investor relations and trust. I love cosmoray's analysis though and hope he continues his useful work. |
MrMarketShopper
Caldari
State War Academy
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Posted - 2009.07.24 00:50:00 -
[2]
I'm bored, so why not.
<bunch of characters i'm not telling the name of >:)>
Grand Total: 57.73b
Wallet balance: 40.12b
Assets 17.61b
Market: Maybe a bil.
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Brock Nelson
Caldari
Flux Technologies Inc
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Posted - 2009.07.24 01:09:00 -
[3]
Audit!
Oh wait... |
Claire Voyant
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Posted - 2009.07.24 01:33:00 -
[4]
I get a 104, but when I sort by value a number of barge and battleship BPCs show up at BPO prices, so maybe mid 90's. |
Thoraemond
Minmatar
Far Ranger
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Posted - 2009.07.24 02:17:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Ender2006
As a side note I still think audits are a waste of time and offer the following evidence...
According to Cosmoray's latest risk assessment document.
2/26 low risk ventures have had audits (7.7%)
18/32 medium risk ventures have had audits (56.3%)
6/15 high risk ventures have had audits (40.0%)
Since an audit would not appear to correlate with the perceived level of risk, and certainly has been demonstrated to be far from the most important determining factor in the ability to obtain funds, I would argue that there are better ways to spend ones time.
I'm not sure the word 'evidence' means what you think it means. Did you consider the possibility that some of those 'high risk' ventures are considered high risk in part because they were unaudited?
API audits are not a panacea, but neither are they entirely useless. For example, an audit might offer (nominally) independent confirmation that the jEveAssets screenshots you posted are accurate. |
Ender2006
APOCALYPSE LEGION
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Posted - 2009.07.24 02:37:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Thoraemond
Did you consider the possibility that some of those 'high risk' ventures are considered high risk in part because they were unaudited?
umm, dude, did you even think about what I posted, lol
Of course I understand that the ones in high risk might be there because they were un-audited. That's the whole point. The entire argument was that if the the lack of an audit is the justification for high risk then take a look at the low risk. It has fewer audits by a stunningly huge percentage...
Now cosmoray doesn't use that as the justification of his rankings nor do I mean to imply he does or should. He uses a combination of factors. Otherwise that table would be pretty much reversed.
Clearly things matter a lot more than audits. Now granted, without audits you'd have to actually know the person, the business, and you couldn't have a career being an auditor :-P
Regardless, audits are useful when needed to confirm questionable investments, business models, large isk amounts, etc. this is merely to show what a powerful tool jeveassets is and indicate that it could be used efficiently in auditing. |
Ender2006
APOCALYPSE LEGION
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Posted - 2009.07.24 02:38:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Brock Nelson
Audit!
Oh wait...
haha I can tell I'm going to love Brock :-P he has an entirely droll sense of humor |
Thoraemond
Minmatar
Far Ranger
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Posted - 2009.07.24 04:26:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Ender2006
Did you even think about what I posted?
It appears that I have given it more thought than you!
You wrote that you think 'audits are a waste of time' and you offer purported 'evidence' to support that assertion. However, the numbers that you posted do not support the claim.
It might be possible to find supportive numbers; e.g.,- numbers that show that no enterprises were upgraded from one risk category to another on the basis of a successful audit, or
- numbers that show that being audited takes two hours of effort, while building a reputation in Market Discussions over the long term takes only one hour of effort (and these two things have an equal impact on the perceived risk of your enterprise).
Even assuming that there is some evidence out there that supports your conclusion, and that the numbers that you present are objectively true, the mere fact that the numbers cover concepts that are related to your argument doesn't make them supportive of your conclusion.
Accordingly, my earlier post focused on your misapplication of the term 'evidence'.
Originally by: Ender2006
This is merely to show what a powerful tool jEveAssets is and indicate that it could be used efficiently in auditing.
It does look like a handy tool: my favourite part of EMMA without so much overhead. |
Ender2006
APOCALYPSE LEGION
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Posted - 2009.07.24 04:49:00 -
[9]
you're right, the word irony would be a much better fit in that sentence. I was not trying to prove empirically that they are a waste of time due to risk category classification alone, merely imply that an audit in no way seems to correlate with commonly accepted risk level. As such, they should not be considered absolutely necessary unless other factors influence them towards that route. Indeed, this very limited data set indicates quite the opposite. Granted the low set is naturally skewed by the lack of auditing options prior to their launch dates anyway.
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Thoraemond
Minmatar
Far Ranger
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Posted - 2009.07.24 07:09:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Ender2006
I was [was] merely implying that an audit in no way seems to correlate with commonly accepted risk level. As such, they should not be considered absolutely necessary unless other factors influence them towards that route. Indeed, this very limited data set indicates quite the opposite.
Your wording has changed, but you are still pointing to those numbers in support of your assertion. Since there's no evident 'incongruity or discordance' between 'an understanding or expectation of a reality and what actually happens', the label 'irony' may be as inapt here as 'evidence'.
Let's agree for the time being that audits are not 'absolutely necessary'. That doesn't mean they are generally a waste of time.
Those numbers are equally consistent with the alternative that audits do consistently reduce the perceived risk of enterprises. Some might move from 'high risk' to 'medium risk', others might move from 'medium risk' to 'low risk'. It is possible that every audit in that dataset did improve the perception of the enterprise that undertook it, though perhaps not always enough to jump to the next category.
(I'll sleep the rest of my pedantry off now, I promise.) |
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Dark-Rising
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Posted - 2009.07.24 07:49:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 24/07/2009 07:50:52
1) You post about audits and business done but not about the business that would not have been done without the support of an audit.
Example: Julian Koll's bond got killed at its birth due to lack of security coupled with lack of audit.
2) You post about audits like launching Jeveassets is about it or little less. Nope, your financial statement is exactly what *every* honest investee (not just the poor new sods) should post.
The auditor is going back in time to check your single transactions that made up that number and ask why that 2B donation arrived off "MyCptKirk" and the guy is not listed in your number of officially stated alts.
The auditor is going to check killboards to try sum up your flying habits and associate a safety flag (or not).
The auditor is flying to every of your POSes (you may ask Brock for confirmation) and see if they are fully fueled, relevant protections active and a sensate defense configured.
The auditor is ensuring and checking your third party insurances ie with protection mercs are up to date.
The auditor is spending several hours *a day* to hint at how to change the prospectus so it becomes more investor-appetible.
The auditor is asking you why you put that scientific alt for sale, when your bond is about research.
The auditor is asking you why you did not allocate X, Y and Z as collateral.
The auditor is calculating how much your missioning ship can earn you, in case the market crashes and you have to dig up interest money in emergency.
The auditor is checking your posting habits to see if there are alarming past posts, if your character you bought 1 year ago was in reality a former corp thief and / or compromised.
The auditor is manually calculating your contracts habits and ETA income
The auditor is manually checking your 482 BPs to see which ones are collateralizable BPOs and what are fluff.
<add here another dozen boring auditing stuff>
3) All of the above taking from 6 hours (almost zero posts single account investee) to 36 hours (4 old accounts, rich posting history, connections, POSes).
For a new auditor all of this nets from 0 (zero) ISK to 30M.
For a less new nets 100M.
Only the top, like Shar, would earn 250M.
Why some FEW (4?) public auditor exist for this pay then? Because they earn something else.
I can't say for the others, but in my specific case, as incredible as it looks for a game, I earn valuable knowledge to use in my RL trading operations. A bit like Chribba earns RL advertisement for his WEB company.
4) Last but not least, the auditor is that guy you try your best to hide your skeletons in the closet to, but he finds them and the investors trust him to exactly do that.
Ah, then there's EvE Assets.
Quote:
I was not trying to prove empirically that they are a waste of time due to risk category classification alone, merely imply that an audit in no way seems to correlate with commonly accepted risk level.
The accountable risk level covered by auditing is not "perceived". It's a simple compound statement about the amount of collateral (< 80% of capital it's high risk bar mitigating factors and that's it) and the sound-ness of the business.
If investors are so stupid to be influenced by "perceived" risk, this is all for the best of such an investee good at making a nice enticing text.
We don't lack of examples of social engineering and stepping stones that fooled investors, but that is not the auditor but the single investor's job to be trustable to his own clients about his financial skill.
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Fleshbot
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Posted - 2009.07.24 17:07:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Ender2006
As a side note I still think audits are a waste of time and offer the following evidence...
According to Cosmoray's latest risk assessment document.
2/26 low risk ventures have had audits (7.7%)
18/32 medium risk ventures have had audits (56.3%)
6/15 high risk ventures have had audits (40.0%)
Lies, damn lies, and statistics.
What we should be looking at is the risk of failure/fraud & audit rates, not risk level & audit rates. I could care less what ventures get funding, I care which ones are going to pay back my investment.
And as Vaerah mentioned, how many scams were killed before funding or were stillborn before posting because of the audit barrier?
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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
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Posted - 2009.07.24 18:48:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Ender2006
Since an audit would not appear to correlate with the perceived level of risk, and certainly has been demonstrated to be far from the most important determining factor in the ability to obtain funds, I would argue that there are better ways to spend ones time. Namely developing investor relations and trust.
The utility of an audit depends very much on who you are, your reputation, and the people who are prepared to speak in favour of you. Few sane people have ever claimed that audits magically reduce risk - it's more a matter, as you put it, of building investor relations by demonstrating a willingness to co-operate, by verifying as many details as possible.
---
34.4:1 mineral compression
ISRC Racing, Season 7 - schedule |
Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
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Posted - 2009.07.24 18:50:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Fleshbot
And as Vaerah mentioned, how many scams were killed before funding or were stillborn before posting because of the audit barrier?
It's not an easy question to answer - I suspect that not as many people are bothering with the more blatant scam IPOs these days.
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34.4:1 mineral compression
ISRC Racing, Season 7 - schedule |
cosmoray
Cosmoray Construction
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Posted - 2009.07.24 19:19:00 -
[15]
I never knew I was so rich!!!!
Nice program, but its has the same hole as some other external programs show. It can't differentiate between BPO's and BPC's.
According to jeveassets I am worth over 500B, and my best asset is a nice shiny Hulk BPO, then a covetor BPO. Shame they are both BPC's!!!
Overall not bad though.
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cosmoray
Cosmoray Construction
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Posted - 2009.07.24 19:22:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Ender2006
According to Cosmoray's latest risk assessment document.
2/26 low risk ventures have had audits (7.7%)
18/32 medium risk ventures have had audits (56.3%)
6/15 high risk ventures have had audits (40.0%)
Easy explanation.
Most of the low risk businesses were run before audits were common or even used. Became low risk by either:
1. Running businesses
2. Gaining rep on MD via posts
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Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.07.25 00:48:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro
Originally by: Fleshbot
And as Vaerah mentioned, how many scams were killed before funding or were stillborn before posting because of the audit barrier?
It's not an easy question to answer - I suspect that not as many people are bothering with the more blatant scam IPOs these days.
Case in point with the Z'xera debacle. Genuinely went through guidance with both myself and eValF even to the point where I offered to pick up purchases of any components that might not sell on market or his 'client' didn't purchase.
15b IPO and thankfully the prints were locked away and for whatever reason the guy had a change of heart and donated the parts back. He walked away with around 3b in isk if I had to guess so far. |
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