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Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2009.08.01 08:58:00 - [1] The Tempest does indeed suck. I have over 200 kills in a Tempest in small gang combat and I've made the best of it. Yes you can kill stuff and there are some decent fits. But it sucks in comparision to other BS's so once I had the skills for a Typhoon the Tempest becomes meh. I've used the Tempest for many different things but with a good amount of skill points I can always find something better than a Tempest for a job. A double damage bonus ship should do good damage! There is nothing wrong with the slot layout or bonus's of a Tempest. The idea is fine - a gun boat with 2 utlility slots. It is just the damage and tank combo is bad. To work a Tempest with max skills needs to do a lot more damage. The only way to justify a ship like this is too have high damage. Oh yeah and "primary Tempest!"
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2009.08.04 03:31:00 - [2] Tempest has double damage bonus's so it has to do good dmage. Fix the damage - fix the ship. Please CCP!!
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2009.08.04 21:46:00 - [3] Originally by: AstroPhobic Does nobody take math classes anymore? I swear, how many times has it been proven that alpha is worthless, nay, detrimental? Don't worry though, he's ex BoB. He knows what he's doing. 20 ships with 100k alpha pop a BS with 97k EHP. 20 ships with 50K alpha fail to kill a BS with 97k EHP because it warps out after the first salvo seeing as it was aligned and you hadn't got a bubble on it. Keep on smacking from your position of ignorance Astro. When in doubt smack! One thing I think people might not realise is how far below good a Tempest damage is. If you give a Tempest with AC's 10% extra damage it still won't be very good.
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2009.08.04 21:56:00 - [4] Edited by: Yakov Draken on 04/08/2009 21:56:35 Originally by: Bibbleibble WTB sniper ship with 5k alpha strike. A maelstrom with 5 damage mods and two Collision rigs will still only get 3866 alpha with Tremor (the ammo that is almost mandatory for sniping), and that is potentially the most unrealistic fit you will ever see. You are not getting the point due to your pedantry. I could have said 25 BS's - it doesn't matter. The point is when you have enough Alpha you pop stuff - the numbers are just numbers.
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2009.08.04 22:04:00 - [5] Guys are you really so decidated to your past positions that you can't see that increased alpha means increased ability to insta pop stuff when sniping? Truly you are squirming all over to avoid seeing this really obvious point - the whole point of alpha. If alpha gets increased it is easier to pop stuff - that is the point. None of your random plot logic can escape this.
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2009.08.04 22:09:00 - [6] Originally by: AstroPhobic Not my fault you can't bubble up a fleet. Originally by: AstroPhobic How about this one instead - those same ships fight, and one of the 20 ships with 5k alpha was delayed 2 seconds by lag, or his own ignorance, or slow reactions, or targeting slowly. The primary warps out before dieing seeing as it was aligned and you hadn't got a bubble on it. Ahahaha . . . wow that was funny. You do comedy right? The worst trolls are the ones like you who don't realise thats what they are doing.
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2009.08.04 22:33:00 - [7] Trying to argue alpha never matters is so obviously stupid I'm not going to go into your examples. So you can come up with examples that alpha doesn't matter in - so what? The argument being made was increase alpha so it matters more and your argument is but it doesn't matter right now - what? Are you being totally ignorant for a reason?
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2009.08.05 21:16:00 - [8] Originally by: Bibbleibble So about 8km extra falloff on ACs and a falloff bonus on the tempest? Would that work? No - not even close. I've flown the Tempest in pvp a lot, now I fly the Typhoon, and some extra falloff isn't enough to see me back in my favourite ship. Right now the Tempest is dual damage bonus (ie should be high damage) with 5 mids - keep the fundamentals the same just boost the damage and you will have a really handy ship. The Phoon is a very good gank/tank ship but the emphasis is on tank - 7 lows and split weapons systems making gank mods somewhat inefficient. A high damage Tempest would be a natural pirate gank boat with its low drone damage (this is good as gate guns pwn drones) and 5 mids. Considering its sails and all having the Tempest as a quality pirate boat is the way to go. How much does a Tempests damage need to go up by? When using AC's I think ~15% more damage is needed before it becomes a good ship. I have no idea why people think that giving the Tempest more falloff will solve the problem. A low damage long range ship will suck compared to Amarr BS's. The problem with these threads is all the people making lots of forceful posts with no real experiance in flying Tempests.
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2009.08.12 01:17:00 - [9] This is all good so long as you understand the Tempest needs more damage not more fall off or any of the other ideas. More damage - lots more!
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2009.08.12 01:41:00 - [10] Originally by: AstroPhobic I think the tempest needs a 7th turret, to start. I reaaaaallly really do. It's becoming pretty clear that it can't do anything with 6. I dread this fix. For serious gang usage I wouldn't fit a 7th gun if I could as I want two RR's. I don't want 1/6th extra gun damage in return for losing 1/2 my contribution to the gangs rep tank. This Tempest would have ok damage, a crap tank, and less utility. What I would like to see is the damage bonus go from 5% to 7.5% and AC's to gain about 5% extra damage. I would then consider using a Tempest once again as it would have good damage and utility to make up for the crap tank.
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2009.08.12 01:54:00 - [11] Edited by: Yakov Draken on 12/08/2009 01:56:44 Originally by: AstroPhobic I don't see the tempest making a decent addition to an RR gang considering it's lackluster DPS (and range, for that matter) and EHP. The extra damage would help but you either drop enough damage mods to have a decent buffer or you're paper thin. What? Astro sometimes even NightmareX is right - the Tempest is at its best in RR gangs which really struggle to fit enough tackle along with everything else. Right now it is a mediocre RR gang BS but with extra damage (that is what we were talking about right?) its' 5 mid slots really comes to the fore. Also capless weapons really matter in RR gangs (believe it!), and a Tempest gets damage on fast enough. Some of the key things to bring to RR gangs are 2 large RR's, ECCM, MWD, and a heavy cap booster - the Tempest loses nothing to bring them and can run the 2 RR's comfortably. This is a Tempests strength.
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2009.08.12 04:44:00 - [12] So back on track it seems large projectiles need about 20% extra damage. I was only looking at the Tempest but if +20% works for the Maelstrom as well then cool. The incredible thing is that looking at Tempest fits adding 20% gun damage still leaves them mediocre in terms of gank plus tank. This should be ok when combined with 5 mids, capless weapons, 2 utility highs, and ammo switching.
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2009.08.12 05:17:00 - [13] Originally by: Psiri 20% more falloff, not damage. Using the traits of projectiles that will translate into more damage anyway. AC's are not s'posed to be blasters, as for blasters they need 20% more tracking. Tempests aren't, have never been nor should be Megathrons. They've got the most speed and utility of all battleships around, expecting a 5mid minmatar BS speed Mega is asking for a bit much, no? Check the damage - it is not that great with +20%. With +20% fall-off it remains a joke. With +20% damage you still do less damage than Mega plus less tank so you arn't a straight gank/tank ship like the Mega. It won't be like a Mega but it will deal solid damage. Almost every comparision of a Mega vs whatever ignores the Mega's second bonus. The Mega is the best up close damage dealer, in theory and practice, because of raw damage plus tracking. Bottom line is the Tempest is a double damage bonus ship with only 6 lows. Either it does good damage (which it isn't close to right now) or it sucks. Stop trying to make the Tempest into something else - go with the logic of its bonus's and make it a damage dealer. This should be obvious.
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2009.08.12 21:39:00 - [14] Originally by: Seriously Bored With a decent damage boost, ACs fit nicely in between Blasters and Pulses, . . . As for the Tempest, it would still be a confusing, unfocussed ship. No Large Projectile boost will fix that. But it might make it so that it's "versatility" is attractive once again, if it can deal fairly decent damage while still doing three other things. EDIT: For those of you still shy about a damage boost: With +20% damage, ACs still do equal or less damage than Pulses, much less Blasters. It just shows how busted they currently are. This to me summerizes the conclusions of this thread. It is amazing we have got this much clarity - thanks to all who contributed. Now we need to take it to the Assembly Hall and keep it on the front page for as long as we can. I was looking at making a post in Assembly but I think you should Seriously Bored - put your graphs up and all. PM me in game if you do and I'll mobilize all the support I can as I really care about this issue as do a number of my corpmates. I have over 200 kills in a Tempest, for 2 losses, and yet as things stand I will never fly this ship again. The Tempest is inferior to another ship for ever task I can find. I want to fly the Tempest, it fits my implants much better than the Phooon I now fly, I actually like the funky slot layout, and it is the best looking pirate BS there is. But I fly the best ship for the job and right now, for low sec, that is never the Tempest.
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2009.08.12 21:58:00 - [15] Originally by: Orakkus Already there... Assembly Hall Thread Not clear enough imo. We need a thread specifically asking for a straight damage increase, +20% looks about right, as most of the others ideas for fixing the Tempest are really bad - like the 7th gun slot one which doesn't fix the problem it just changes it.
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2009.08.13 21:21:00 - [16] Having cleared up the confusion over the Maelstrom's dps I'm back with the idea of changing the Tempests damage bonus to 7.5% and adding 7.5% extra damage to large all projectiles. That is a 20% damage increase for Tempests and 7.5% for Maelstroms.
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2009.08.24 21:05:00 - [17] As part of fixing large AC's/Tempest I'd like to see Hail buffed. Take away the cap penalty and have it track at 75% rather than 50%.

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