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space ganelon
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Posted - 2009.08.03 17:59:00 -
[1]
Apologies if this is discussed somewhere in here already, looked and could not find it.
Proposal: Use "eminent domain"-style policy and exchange all existing T2 BPOs for some version of "fair market value".
The existance of T2 BPOs make invention pretty much worthless, except for small ephemeral niches. I'm not going to go on and on with details to convince anyone, it's really pretty self-evident to anyone who's ever applied a spreadsheet to the issue.
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Arous Drephius
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Posted - 2009.08.03 18:58:00 -
[2]
Perhaps you should check the math on invention. It's far from worthless.
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Information Broker
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Posted - 2009.08.03 19:03:00 -
[3]
actually Invention makes T2 BPO's worthless as t2 bpo's only yield 20-40 mil profit more a week or so (due to no invention costs and other fees) and t2's take years to regain cost of t2 unless you've held since when t2's were sold on market.
btw this is an alt your using right? please say right.
btw is this a response to this thread?
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Misaki Yuuko
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Posted - 2009.08.03 19:06:00 -
[4]
I wonder how I'm getting rich by doing invetion though  Too much clueless people talking about this.
I've a better suggestion: just ban from the game all the "datacores, minerals, whatever, is free" crew, they are more harmfull than all T2 BPO combined together.
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space ganelon
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Posted - 2009.08.03 19:09:00 -
[5]
The math is simple - there is no way for invented BPC users to successfully compete with T2 BPOs researched to 30,30. Having the lottery for getting T2 BPOs and then just ending it is one thing, but pretending invention makes up for it and leaving the BPOs in circulation is quite another.
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lucifers widow
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Posted - 2009.08.03 19:24:00 -
[6]
So if with BPO's in circulation it is worthless to invent why not stop invention and invent something which there is not 2 BPO's ?
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Korbyn Dallaz
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Posted - 2009.08.03 19:24:00 -
[7]
I am just getting into invention so I am just asking here . I have read the guides and done the math and it seems when it comes to ships T2 invention just does not pay . If I am wrong here I would like someone to explain but when I figure in the cost of the Datacores and the chance of failure it seems T2 BPC's are barely better than breaking even and in some cases a flat out loss where I could make more isk selling the datacores . With almost 2 out of 3 chances failing it seem it could be easy to get burnt by an unlucky string of failures if you are dealing in smaller numbers . Am I figuring something wrong here ? And yes I am figuring all level 5 skills and a decryptor into the chance calculator . Now ammo seems to be a different situation I am only talking ships here .
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space ganelon
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Posted - 2009.08.03 19:26:00 -
[8]
 Originally by: Information Broker
and t2's take years to regain cost of t2 unless you've held since ...
sure, i never said T2 BPOs were a great deal to buy, else i'd just go buy one. but they remain out there depressing prices, independent of how much was paid for them. i have no speculation on how many have changed hands vs. still remaining in hands of lottery winners.
and re: datacores, etc. being "free" - of course they're not, that's why 4 mill-ish for a T2 frig BPC is about break-even.
re: being clueless - i don't mind being proven clueless and thus being educated, just callin' it like i see it.
and i admit to possibly just being a little bitter about missing the lottery... :)
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lucifers widow
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Posted - 2009.08.03 19:34:00 -
[9]
Originally by: space ganelon
and re: datacores, etc. being "free" - of course they're not, that's why 4 mill-ish for a T2 frig BPC is about break-even.
re: being clueless - i don't mind being proven clueless and thus being educated, just callin' it like i see it.
Datacores are free same as decryptors.
Cores are given out by R&D agents and decryptors are found in exploration sites.
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Korbyn Dallaz
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Posted - 2009.08.03 19:56:00 -
[10]
Datacores regardless of how they were obtained have a value . If the value of those materials consumed in the invention process is equal to or greater than the The value of the BPC that you might get figuring in the chance of failure then the invention process it's self is not profitable . R&D may be profitable and the manufacture of the ship may be profitable but those are separate ventures that need to be calculated separately if we are talking strictly about the profitability of inventing . When considering investing in skills for invention that is how you must calculate it in my opinion . The people here that are claiming to be making large amounts of isk by inventing are you not figuring the value of the invention materials into the equation ?
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De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Special Projects Executive
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Posted - 2009.08.03 20:10:00 -
[11]
And before the thread has been successfully derailed into an "X has value regardless of how you obtained it" thread, let's go back to the topic at hand.
--Vel
Experience is what you get right after you need it.
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lucifers widow
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Posted - 2009.08.03 20:12:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Korbyn Dallaz
Datacores regardless of how they were obtained have a value .
Of course they have a value, never said they didn't but the fact still remains they are given out free by R&D agents
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space ganelon
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Posted - 2009.08.03 20:27:00 -
[13]
Originally by: De'Veldrin
And before the thread has been successfully derailed into an "X has value regardless of how you obtained it" thread, let's go back to the topic at hand.
Yes, thanks. Let's try to reframe this without worrying about where these things come from in the 1st place.
Perhaps the thing here is that I am focusing on small/mid-sized ships rather than various modules or ammo, but building frigs or cruisers from invented BPCs just really seems to be a loser relative to selling off the datacores and building materials required. i.e. if you have all the datacores and materials needed invent and build a T2 cruiser or frig, you are better off just selling them than actually inventing and building the item. That just seems lame, to me.
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Misaki Yuuko
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Posted - 2009.08.03 21:13:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Korbyn Dallaz
Datacores regardless of how they were obtained have a value . If the value of those materials consumed in the invention process is equal to or greater than the The value of the BPC that you might get figuring in the chance of failure then the invention process it's self is not profitable . R&D may be profitable and the manufacture of the ship may be profitable but those are separate ventures that need to be calculated separately if we are talking strictly about the profitability of inventing . When considering investing in skills for invention that is how you must calculate it in my opinion . The people here that are claiming to be making large amounts of isk by inventing are you not figuring the value of the invention materials into the equation ?
I'm gettign rich at doing invention, but forget about ships (mostlly, there are some which make money if you know where to market them, NO I'M NOT TELLING YOU WHICH and WHERE).
Why ships don't break even? Cause there are too stupid people who thinks 'stuff is free' and first thing they will invent is ships. This is not a derail, this is the real issue, and you can't hardcore :intelligence: on people. T2 BPOs can't cover 0.05% of market volume in any decent (aka used) item, these are a nonissue. If you are so mad about them go buy one yourself, let's see when you break even.
Go remove T2 BPOs and tell these who bought one for docens of billiosn to GTFO, there is no such thing as "fair market value" for such things, the sceew would be enormous. Just get over it, eventually most T2 BPOs will be out of play, each time a "bitter vet" which owns one quits the game one is practically removed from the game, a lot have allready.
Seriouslly this is mroe trouble than anything else. There are plenty of threads in the science & industry and MD subforums discussing this, go there for more detailed answers if you want.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2009.08.03 21:17:00 -
[15]
Originally by: space ganelon
Apologies if this is discussed somewhere in here already, looked and could not find it.
Proposal: Use "eminent domain"-style policy and exchange all existing T2 BPOs for some version of "fair market value".
The existance of T2 BPOs make invention pretty much worthless, except for small ephemeral niches. I'm not going to go on and on with details to convince anyone, it's really pretty self-evident to anyone who's ever applied a spreadsheet to the issue.
oh please not again. don't blame bpo owners for your own failed market research. i am getting rich with invention.
oh and well not supported.
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space ganelon
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Posted - 2009.08.03 21:46:00 -
[16]
Originally by: darius mclever
oh please not again.
honestly, that's about what i was expecting. so, sorry again if nothing new.
hm, the claim that "T2 BPOs cannot account for .05% of the volume" seems flatly wrong, T2 ship volume is not THAT high. however, it is true that i did not consider that so many ppl might be clueless enough about "opportunity cost" to be not accurately accounting their costs when pricing T2 ships... Functioning market models do require the actors to be semi-intelligent i suppose.
I would of course never be so prsumptious as to ask "where" or "what" on what ppl are producing, but I *am* curious about an order-of-magnitude of what "getting rich on invention" means - ballpark ISK / weeks. Just the number of 0s will do :)
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2009.08.03 21:48:00 -
[17]
few bills per month?
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Slave 2739FKZ
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Posted - 2009.08.03 21:51:00 -
[18]
Rich is subjective, but you can earn more beat the billion per month mark (net profit) with a single char with some effort. Man i know you are angry because you didn't win one of these free t2 bpos, "been there, done that". You could be earning more? probably...
... but negative retroactive changes are allways a bad idea, and have to be avoided if possible, which is the case.
I haven't run the numbers but I'm sure BPOs can't cover much of the daily trade volume on any item, INCLUDING T2 ships, have you seen the ****load of ships that are sold daily?
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Borun Tal
Minmatar
Virtual Rock Industries
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Posted - 2009.08.03 23:12:00 -
[19]
First, can you show unequivically (sp?) that the existence of T2 BPOs have an effect on the economy of Eve, or that their use in producing T2 stuffs have a significant impact on Eve's economy? Personally I don't see how they can, so it sounds just like a "well if I can't have one, nobody should!" argument. Fail.
Second, the existence of T2 BPOs have ZERO impact on my invention of the stuff I like inventing and selling. So those with the BPO make more isk in profit, big deal. I don't sell stuff that is already heavily on the market, and I don't sell if the profit margins are too low. So big freakin' deal. Fail.
Third, for the poster who posted the "this is an alt posting, isn't it?" crap, what do you care? Every friggin' toon is an alt, so please kindly stfu.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
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Posted - 2009.08.04 01:19:00 -
[20]
T2 BPOs are fine. Removing them is worse than keeping them.
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Vorick
Caldari
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.04 05:58:00 -
[21]
This idea has been brought up before and never acted upon. However, I'd like to say the most reasonable suggestion I ever saw was to replace all T2 BPOs with an equivalent BPC having enough runs for a full year of constant production.
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Mr Spot
I Blame Chum
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Posted - 2009.08.04 06:22:00 -
[22]
Not supported.
Before invention: "T2 BPO owners are charging too much! WAAH!"
After invention: "T2 BPO owners aren't charging enough! WAAH!"
The truth of the matter is that the ones driving down T2 prices to levels unprofitable for inventors are the inventors themselves. And it's for exactly the same reason as why T1 manufacturing is unprofitable. Some idiot comes along, mines his own minerals for free, collects his own datacores for free, gets his BPCs for free, uses his POS's labs for free, writes down his failed invention jobs as free, uses manufacturing facilities for free, and then puts them on the market for free at a stupid discount to pre-existing orders.
Done right, an inventor can produce many items in the same time a T2 BPO owner can produce only 1, thanks to the fact that invention will yield multiple BPCs to build from in parallel. A smart inventor will be able to make, say, 10 units at 5 million profit in the same time that the supposed game-ruining T2 BPO owner makes 10 million on one unit.
tl; dr: Invention "sucks" because of inventors.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.08.04 06:32:00 -
[23]
Originally by: space ganelon
Originally by: Information Broker
and t2's take years to regain cost of t2 unless you've held since ...
sure, i never said T2 BPOs were a great deal to buy, else i'd just go buy one. but they remain out there depressing prices, independent of how much was paid for them. i have no speculation on how many have changed hands vs. still remaining in hands of lottery winners.
and re: datacores, etc. being "free" - of course they're not, that's why 4 mill-ish for a T2 frig BPC is about break-even.
re: being clueless - i don't mind being proven clueless and thus being educated, just callin' it like i see it.
and i admit to possibly just being a little bitter about missing the lottery... :)
 They depress prices only for those items where the demand is inferior to the production of the existing BPO.
But removing the BPO that allow low cost production of those item will not make them competitive. People would simply move to low cost named/faction versions of the same item instead of paying the invention costs.
Note that T2 module BPC waste don't apply to the T2 material but only to the asteroid ores, so production cost isn't so different. The only real extra cost is the invention process.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.08.04 06:37:00 -
[24]
Originally by: space ganelon
re: being clueless - i don't mind being proven clueless and thus being educated, just callin' it like i see it.
and i admit to possibly just being a little bitter about missing the lottery... :)
I will borrow Secnes words about the sale of a Hulk BPO:
Originally by: SencneS
I guess you really need to work out, instead of spending 100b on the BPO, what if you spend 100b on invention materials for the Hulk..
At a 50% failure rate, you'd lose 50b. But you'd also have thousands of 5 run Hulk BPCs.
Now you can build at maximum speed above and beyond the BPO holder, hell a single Character can build 11 at a time. An entire account can build 33.
The only difference here is when do you want your ISK, sooner or later. Sooner, you do the invention, later, you buy the BPO. Because while you burned up 100B on invention you'd need to sell 5,000 Hulks (20mil profit each). At 33 a day you're recovery time is 152 days.
I don't know how much 100b will get you in invention material so it's hard to know how many 5run BPCs you'll get. If it's 1,000, then you break even, Any more then 1,000 and it's all profit.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.08.04 06:41:00 -
[25]
Originally by: space ganelon
Originally by: De'Veldrin
And before the thread has been successfully derailed into an "X has value regardless of how you obtained it" thread, let's go back to the topic at hand.
Yes, thanks. Let's try to reframe this without worrying about where these things come from in the 1st place.
Perhaps the thing here is that I am focusing on small/mid-sized ships rather than various modules or ammo, but building frigs or cruisers from invented BPCs just really seems to be a loser relative to selling off the datacores and building materials required. i.e. if you have all the datacores and materials needed invent and build a T2 cruiser or frig, you are better off just selling them than actually inventing and building the item. That just seems lame, to me.
The price/value of the datacores is dictated by the most rewarding form of invention.
I have recently redone my math for some common T2 module (with BPO) and I have got as high as 70% gain after evaluating all the components and datacores at the best price between minimum sell price or higher buy price.
As i checked only what I can already build probably some item give even higher returns.
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Gaven's Bihotch
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Posted - 2009.08.04 06:59:00 -
[26]
/me reattatches ass which fell off when laughing hysterically
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.08.04 07:51:00 -
[27]
Originally by: space ganelon
Apologies if this is discussed somewhere in here already, looked and could not find it.
Proposal: Use "eminent domain"-style policy and exchange all existing T2 BPOs for some version of "fair market value".
The existance of T2 BPOs make invention pretty much worthless, except for small ephemeral niches. I'm not going to go on and on with details to convince anyone, it's really pretty self-evident to anyone who's ever applied a spreadsheet to the issue.
I bolded the wrongest part.
Please compare margins on HICs and HACs to see why.
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space ganelon
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Posted - 2009.08.04 08:40:00 -
[28]
OK, so maybe I over-generalized from a few point-cases... I'll keep filling out the spreadsheet with more items and see where that takes us. (Yes, the spreadsheet precedes any actual building, to whoever poo-poo-ed me for not doing mkt research) Thanks for talking the time to comment, even those of you who were slightly flame-esque.
Sad if the bad prices really are mostly due to inept cost accounting.
Bill to Bill+1/2 a month... well, not bad if that's supplemental, but i'm sure not switching careers :)
-space
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.08.04 10:23:00 -
[29]
Originally by: space ganelon
Bill to Bill+1/2 a month... well, not bad if that's supplemental, but i'm sure not switching careers :)
-space
For 1 character spending less than 1 hour day doing that and including only the net profit from invention?
If you include the profit from the trade part (buying lows cost component) it get at 2-3 billions doing it in a lazy way.
Use all 3 character on your account and you will make 6-8 billionsmonth using 2 hours/day. It scale well with the number of characters doing it, you don't need to put your buy and sell orders more than once and a single inventor can produce enough BPC for all the characters; the other characters only need to log in, start 10 building jobs and leave.
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Kolmogorow
Freedom Resources
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Posted - 2009.08.04 15:03:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Misaki Yuuko
...T2 BPOs can't cover 0.05% of market volume in any decent (aka used) item, these are a nonissue...
I think this number is far away from the truth. Let's take the example of the "high demand" item 1MN Afterburner II:
- A single T2 BPO builds around 650 to 700 items per month
- Sold items in Heimatar in July: 3287
Means: A single 1MN Afterburner II BPO covers around 20% of the market in Heimatar. Most regions have less throughput than Heimatar, a few have higher throughput. Supposed there are still 10 to 15 1MN ABII BPOs in use (noone really knows, except CCP) I would guess 10% to 20% remains a valid number for the whole of the EVE universe.
This is a considerable factor on the market in my opinion but is it a factor which could dictate the price or even destroy invention?
From an economic viewpoint: No. But there might be a serious "psychological" effect, for instance: T2 BPO owner places a big pile of items on the market for a price which is profitable for him but not for an inventor who has higher costs. Inventor isn't cool enough, gets nervous and undercuts the price, next inventor does the same, and so on... They better would wait until the BPO owner had sold his stuff which would be the case after less than a week according to the calc above; after that the market would be clean of BPO produced items and the inventors could sell for the price they need for the rest of the month.
In my opinion only the economic viewpoint should be taken into account if we think about removing T2 BPOs from the game, not this psychological argument (if it exists in reality at all), that's a problem of the inventors, not of market, production, supply and demand itself. (Well, undercutting to death and not considering the real complete costs is a general problem anyway, also for T1 production, not only for T2.)
So finally I would still follow your conclusion - well, I replace "nonissue" by "not a big issue".
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