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[Proposal] Automatic Node Reinforcment

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Noghri ViR GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.05 18:57:00 - [1] Right now the current system in place is that if there is a need to reinforce a node, you have to go to the following page and fill out the form: http://myeve.eve-online.com/fleetfightnotification.asp (source: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=940053) The problem with this situation is that sometimes people forget to do this or thinks that someone else in the alliance already did it. Then when everyone shows up and you have a unplayable battle/game. So my proposal is that whenever a r64 moon or sov holding POS is put into reinforced mode, a event is generated for the person handling the node reinforcement to just automatically do this and that the node will remain reinforced until the downtime after the POS is destroyed or repaired. In events where there isn't a r64 moon or sov holding POS you would still have to fill out the form. --------------------------------------------- Noghri ViR for CSM Vote for me here: http://myeve.eve-online.com/council/voting/Vote.asp?c=28 http://noghri08.wordpress.com/
iP0D	Posted - 2009.08.05 19:12:00 - [2] In spite of being awfully close to launching their own SKYNET, CCP does not have unlimited hardware Node reinforcing requires bits and pieces of the good hardware, the pink stuff. So, from what I remember from some devblog the hamsters at World Operations handle these node reinforcement requests, which is probably where all the confusion comes from regarding the hamsters. On a sidenote, tbh I would actually make x64 drama excempt from reinforcing nodes. Make it as bad an experience as possible, just for the sake of experience. But that is probably a very different debate. Btw, if people forget to fill in a form, that is their own fault. Not CCP's. Besides, there are plenty times (tbh it is becoming pretty much standard) where leaderships fake information to their own members for the sake of "roleplaying" (spygames) but quite often and especially in defensive scenarios they claim to file for reinforcing the node but just don't do it. Why? Because it is easier to suck up something when you can blame CCP, and it is easier to face odds when you can dictate how many players you can pump into an unreinforced node so that any hostile forces really have very little chance of making a dent The current system leaves a degree of responsability with the players, while allowing for screwups as well as tactics using the system. If that is cool, keep it as it is until Infiniband or something arrives. If those parts aren't cool, maybe then changes might be needed. But you still face inherent limitations.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre	Posted - 2009.08.05 19:18:00 - [3] Not gonna happen.... The only way you'll get what you want is if they enforce ALL Nodes throughout the entire game. In a sense.. total overhual of hardware. And I doubt they will do that in the near future unless they come onto some major profits. Auotmating a system as you claim is not as simple as it sounds. There are factors that have to be tested... and constantly checked...which take time and CPU load to do.... compounded with it checking any number of hundreds of systems... variables... conditions. You could trigger "said" event just by having a sudden shift of 500 pilots going from point A to point B.... or someone just for kicks re-enforces a POS when there is no battle to be had. Alliance wars are not predictable... you may forsee something happening... but its never going to happen as you plan it to be. Automating a system like that is so mind boggleing you'd need to make a leap to some sort of super AI (poke poke skynet fun) to be able to gauge said response. I don't program... but I know enough to know that what your asking for is nigh impossible at this current time. Now if CCP overhauls all the systems or dedicates a portion of the cluster to 0.0 space or something... then its no question. But there's just too many things to track. We humans are not as predictable as machines... except for our predictable urge to destroy :) ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
Noghri ViR GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.05 19:27:00 - [4] Edited by: Noghri ViR on 05/08/2009 19:35:03 Originally by: Drake Draconis Auotmating a system as you claim is not as simple as it sounds. There are factors that have to be tested... and constantly checked...which take time and CPU load to do.... compounded with it checking any number of hundreds of systems... variables... conditions. You could trigger "said" event just by having a sudden shift of 500 pilots going from point A to point B.... or someone just for kicks re-enforces a POS when there is no battle to be had. Alliance wars are not predictable... you may forsee something happening... but its never going to happen as you plan it to be. Automating a system like that is so mind boggleing you'd need to make a leap to some sort of super AI (poke poke skynet fun) to be able to gauge said response. I don't program... but I know enough to know that what your asking for is nigh impossible at this current time. No it's not. I'm not asking for the nodes to be reinforced via some programing means (well in the sense you were talking about). All you would look at is if a sov holding or r64 moon is in reinforced mode. If so the form could be automatically generated and the person in charge would go about his work of reinforcing the node. That's it. All it is, is automatically filling out that form and improving the end user experience instead of subjecting them to a frame by frame slideshow where they were actually dead minutes ago. --------------------------------------------- Noghri ViR for CSM Vote for me here: http://myeve.eve-online.com/council/voting/Vote.asp?c=28 http://noghri08.wordpress.com/
iP0D	Posted - 2009.08.05 19:52:00 - [5] Why would the moon goo crowd get automated special treatment. Just think about it. As opposed to faction warfare, lowsec, w-space groupies, heck even Jita or Rens. I'm sorry, but your "proposal" comes down to a case of "we the X64 endgame content kings have more right to a better gaming performance then others". So, that argument being shot down, I am curious what other arguments you have. Don't misunderstand me, I may seem rude, but I'm actually quite interested in a proper argumentation.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre	Posted - 2009.08.05 20:17:00 - [6] Originally by: Noghri ViR Edited by: Noghri ViR on 05/08/2009 19:35:03 Originally by: Drake Draconis Auotmating a system as you claim is not as simple as it sounds. There are factors that have to be tested... and constantly checked...which take time and CPU load to do.... compounded with it checking any number of hundreds of systems... variables... conditions. You could trigger "said" event just by having a sudden shift of 500 pilots going from point A to point B.... or someone just for kicks re-enforces a POS when there is no battle to be had. Alliance wars are not predictable... you may forsee something happening... but its never going to happen as you plan it to be. Automating a system like that is so mind boggleing you'd need to make a leap to some sort of super AI (poke poke skynet fun) to be able to gauge said response. I don't program... but I know enough to know that what your asking for is nigh impossible at this current time. No it's not. I'm not asking for the nodes to be reinforced via some programing means (well in the sense you were talking about). All you would look at is if a sov holding or r64 moon is in reinforced mode. If so the form could be automatically generated and the person in charge would go about his work of reinforcing the node. That's it. All it is, is automatically filling out that form and improving the end user experience instead of subjecting them to a frame by frame slideshow where they were actually dead minutes ago. Regardless... as you obviously lack the experience to understand such complicated concepts... The same thing applies... a system would have to be created to watch... monitor.. predict..calculate.... It's not as simple as a If then Else statement.... Not when it comes to things of EVE online. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
Scatim Helicon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.05 20:42:00 - [7] Originally by: iP0D Why would the moon goo crowd get automated special treatment. Just think about it. As opposed to faction warfare, lowsec, w-space groupies, heck even Jita or Rens. I'm sorry, but your "proposal" comes down to a case of "we the X64 endgame content kings have more right to a better gaming performance then others" I think its more a case of "Reinforced nodes are needed for big fights, and one of the surest ways to cause a big fight is by shooting an alliance's r64s", plus the fact that the tower is (usually) stronted far enough ahead that CCP can prepare the node in time, and that with a tower, you know the location and approximate time that the fight is most likely to happen. Obviously 2 big fleets bumping into each other in lowsec isn't necessarily something that can be predicted in the same way (even if you know the clash is going to happen you can't be sure which system is going to see the heaviest numbers fighting) and so an automated pre-node reinforcement system wouldn't work there. (As you mentioned Jita, I understand Jita is on effectively its own perma-reinforced node 23/7 anyway)
Noghri ViR GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.05 21:00:00 - [8] Edited by: Noghri ViR on 05/08/2009 21:01:43 Originally by: iP0D Why would the moon goo crowd get automated special treatment. Just think about it. As opposed to faction warfare, lowsec, w-space groupies, heck even Jita or Rens. I'm sorry, but your "proposal" comes down to a case of "we the X64 endgame content kings have more right to a better gaming performance then others". So, that argument being shot down, I am curious what other arguments you have. Don't misunderstand me, I may seem rude, but I'm actually quite interested in a proper argumentation. All of your arguments have been pretty well shot down by Scatim Helicon Originally by: Drake Draconis Originally by: Noghri ViR Edited by: Noghri ViR on 05/08/2009 19:35:03 Originally by: Drake Draconis Auotmating a system as you claim is not as simple as it sounds. There are factors that have to be tested... and constantly checked...which take time and CPU load to do.... compounded with it checking any number of hundreds of systems... variables... conditions. You could trigger "said" event just by having a sudden shift of 500 pilots going from point A to point B.... or someone just for kicks re-enforces a POS when there is no battle to be had. Alliance wars are not predictable... you may forsee something happening... but its never going to happen as you plan it to be. Automating a system like that is so mind boggleing you'd need to make a leap to some sort of super AI (poke poke skynet fun) to be able to gauge said response. I don't program... but I know enough to know that what your asking for is nigh impossible at this current time. No it's not. I'm not asking for the nodes to be reinforced via some programing means (well in the sense you were talking about). All you would look at is if a sov holding or r64 moon is in reinforced mode. If so the form could be automatically generated and the person in charge would go about his work of reinforcing the node. That's it. All it is, is automatically filling out that form and improving the end user experience instead of subjecting them to a frame by frame slideshow where they were actually dead minutes ago. Regardless... as you obviously lack the experience to understand such complicated concepts... The same thing applies... a system would have to be created to watch... monitor.. predict..calculate.... It's not as simple as a If then Else statement.... Not when it comes to things of EVE online. So would you mind providing your obviously experience resume of MMORPG programing? If not you might want to quit backseat programing and let CCP decided on the merit of it or not :) --------------------------------------------- Noghri ViR for CSM Vote for me here: http://myeve.eve-online.com/council/voting/Vote.asp?c=28 http://noghri08.wordpress.com/
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre	Posted - 2009.08.05 21:37:00 - [9] Originally by: Noghri ViR So would you mind providing your obviously experience resume of MMORPG programing? If not you might want to quit backseat programing and let CCP decided on the merit of it or not :) I don't have time to teach you how to read... you got thousands of buddies who can however. Feel free to look them up. Its your idea... you figure it out. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
Allen Ramses Caldari Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2009.08.06 02:36:00 - [10] What you are suggesting is impossible. World resource allocation can only be assigned during downtime. ____________________ CCP: Catering to the cowards of a cold, harsh universe since November, 2006.
Noghri ViR GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.06 04:34:00 - [11] Originally by: Allen Ramses What you are suggesting is impossible. World resource allocation can only be assigned during downtime. What I'm suggesting is everything that's already happening, minus a person having to fill out a form. You could have something run before downtime, if there's a r64 or sov holding pos in reinforced mode in a system that process would fill out the form and the person that currently receives them would do what they do right now and reinforce the node. There would be no change other then a person from the alliance not having to fill out the form. --------------------------------------------- Noghri ViR for CSM Vote for me here: http://myeve.eve-online.com/council/voting/Vote.asp?c=28 http://noghri08.wordpress.com/
Avalloc	Posted - 2009.08.06 07:35:00 - [12] I shall be supporting this.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.08.06 08:51:00 - [13] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 06/08/2009 08:58:21 Originally by: Noghri ViR No it's not. I'm not asking for the nodes to be reinforced via some programing means (well in the sense you were talking about). All you would look at is if a sov holding or r64 moon is in reinforced mode. If so the form could be automatically generated and the person in charge would go about his work of reinforcing the node. That's it. All it is, is automatically filling out that form and improving the end user experience instead of subjecting them to a frame by frame slideshow where they were actually dead minutes ago. What you are asking is: - add program routine that at DT scan all the systems (at least low sec and 0.0) for reinforced towers; - after finding the reinforced towers, check the moon for r64 moon minerals; - then flag those systems to the Devs for reinforcement. Problems: - how many thousand towers it would check every DT? - why the node of my system with several r32 moons in reinforcement should not be reinforced but the system with 1 single r64 moon should be reinforced instead? - how many systems we will see that will not the attacked but will get reinforced, reducing server resources for the rest of EVE players? - how long will be the procedure and how costly in term of manpower at DT? No, thanks. Edit: I hadn't noticed this: Quote: or sov holding POS Better and better, how many hundred reinforced node every day for you? So we should now add another request to oru little program: - flag every sov holding POS in reinforcement. And our poor Dev should look some tens of systems requesting automatic reinforcements and decide who will get it and who will not as he can't reinforce them all. And then get the blame of helping alliance A or B if he choose wrong.
Avalloc	Posted - 2009.08.06 09:01:00 - [14] Originally by: Venkul Mul What you are asking is: - add program routine that at DT scan all the r64 moons for reinforced towers; - then flag those systems to the Devs for reinforcement. Problems: - how many hundreds of hundreds it would check every DT? - why the node of my system with several r32 moons in reinforcement should not be reinforced but the system with 1 single r64 moon should be reinforced instead? - how many systems we will see that will not the attacked but will get reinforced, reducing server resources for the rest of EVE players? - how long will be the procedure and how costly in term of manpower at DT? No, thanks. I fixed it for you.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.08.06 09:09:00 - [15] Originally by: Avalloc Originally by: Venkul Mul What you are asking is: - add program routine that at DT scan all the r64 moons for reinforced towers; - then flag those systems to the Devs for reinforcement. Problems: - how many hundreds of hundreds it would check every DT? - why the node of my system with several r32 moons in reinforcement should not be reinforced but the system with 1 single r64 moon should be reinforced instead? - how many systems we will see that will not the attacked but will get reinforced, reducing server resources for the rest of EVE players? - how long will be the procedure and how costly in term of manpower at DT? No, thanks. I fixed it for you. You missed this part: Originally by: Venkul Mul Edit: I hadn't noticed this: Quote: or sov holding POS Better and better, how many hundred reinforced node every day for you? So we should now add another request to oru little program: - flag every sov holding POS in reinforcement. And our poor Dev should look some tens of systems requesting automatic reinforcements and decide who will get it and who will not as he can't reinforce them all. And then get the blame of helping alliance A or B if he choose wrong. So you nice fellow Goon is asking for a scan of all the POS in 0.0 + all the POS of r64 moons in low sec. Care to retract?
Avalloc	Posted - 2009.08.06 09:40:00 - [16] Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Avalloc Originally by: Venkul Mul What you are asking is: - add program routine that at DT scan all the r64 moons for reinforced towers; - then flag those systems to the Devs for reinforcement. Problems: - how many hundreds of hundreds it would check every DT? - why the node of my system with several r32 moons in reinforcement should not be reinforced but the system with 1 single r64 moon should be reinforced instead? - how many systems we will see that will not the attacked but will get reinforced, reducing server resources for the rest of EVE players? - how long will be the procedure and how costly in term of manpower at DT? No, thanks. I fixed it for you. You missed this part: Originally by: Venkul Mul Edit: I hadn't noticed this: Quote: or sov holding POS Better and better, how many hundred reinforced node every day for you? So we should now add another request to oru little program: - flag every sov holding POS in reinforcement. And our poor Dev should look some tens of systems requesting automatic reinforcements and decide who will get it and who will not as he can't reinforce them all. And then get the blame of helping alliance A or B if he choose wrong. So you nice fellow Goon is asking for a scan of all the POS in 0.0 + all the POS of r64 moons in low sec. Care to retract? You aren't making a whole lot of sense with your argument(s) unfortunately.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.08.06 09:47:00 - [17] Originally by: Avalloc You aren't making a whole lot of sense with your argument(s) unfortunately. What part of: "To fulfil this request CCP need a routine to scan all the POS in 0.0 to see if they are in reinforcement" don't make sense?
steave435 Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.08.06 12:17:00 - [18] Quote: - how many thousand towers it would check every DT? 0. Checking if the moon is an r64 or hold sov (or whatever conditions you want to add/remove) could be made part of the reinforcing process. When the tower hit 25% shield, the check is run, and if it's possitive, the form is filled.
Noghri ViR GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.06 15:39:00 - [19] Originally by: Venkul Mul Edited by: Venkul Mul on 06/08/2009 09:58:19 Every day severals of them are put in reinforcement. severals? I'm loving your argument here. Originally by: Venkul Mul Edited by: Venkul Mul on 06/08/2009 09:58:19 CCP has not the server resource to put teens of system in reinforcement every day without damaging all the other players. There will be a lot of false positive where the POS is put in reinforcement but no big battle follow. Some Dev would need to decide what system should be reinforced and what system should not, based on the resources available and other requests for reinforcements. Every time some non-reinforced system see a big battle CCP would be blamed, with accusations of favouritism. So a big use of resources because someone don't want to make a request for reinforcement. Not a good idea. Clearer now? Since you seem to have such and extensive experience working with the systems and programs used to run Eve, mind if you post your resume here so we can begin deferring to your obvious expertise. Otherwise if this is just more of your backseat programing of Eve.....maybe you should leave what can and can't be done up to the actual people who make the game? --------------------------------------------- Noghri ViR for CSM Vote for me here: http://myeve.eve-online.com/council/voting/Vote.asp?c=28 http://noghri08.wordpress.com/
Serendipity007 GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.06 15:43:00 - [20] Supported ___________________________________________________ "I'm an engineer, not a miracle worker!" - Scotty, Star Trek: TOS
Xipheas Evolving Strategies	Posted - 2009.08.06 16:18:00 - [21] Edited by: Xipheas on 06/08/2009 16:20:03 That being true, you still have the issue that quite often there will be more auto-generated forms than nodes available to do the reinforcing with, and hence still have to be Dev decisions being made, and subsequently finger-pointing about dev interference on one side or another when they did or didn't reinforce a particular node. In the current situation, the lack of available reinforcement is handled by the fact that people don't bother to fill in the form, and then the blame can be laid squarely at their feet. Neither situation is great, I'll admit, but you have to realise you are forcing decisions off players and onto the dev's, to the point that they can be interfering with the outcome. I would have thought you guys of all people wouldn't want that. Edit - fat finger syndrome :(
Herschel Yamamoto Agent-Orange	Posted - 2009.08.06 16:31:00 - [22] I think that this probably will prove to be an unworkable suggestion, but I'd favour raising it to CCP to see what they think of it. They'd have a much better idea of its feasibility than we would.
Waxarn Kel	Posted - 2009.08.06 18:00:00 - [23] I fully support this idea. Let CCP decided the if it's doable or not.

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