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mahhy
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Posted - 2004.10.07 09:56:00 -
[61]
 Originally by: Shadowsword
And you find dual mwd battleships setup for battles at, every corner of the street right? 
Perhaps more often than you would expect. I've seen a good number of people use dual mwd BS's as part of a roving gank squad, deep in enemy territory. I think I've even been on the receiving end of a group of them  (i didn't take the time to ship scan them, nor did I even have a ship scanner fitted, so don't quote me on that!)
Originally by: Shadowsword
The Devs, with their suggested changes, DID propose faster and cheaper missiles, but when some whiners on this forums started screaming about torps doing 60 damage on a frig, the changes were postponed. Maybe you should ponder that before complaining about speed and cost.
Weren't those two separate proposals? Speed/agility changes, then since those didn't work out (as I understood it, the Eve engine couldn't handle it properly), the proposal to change damage output based on sig radius was brought up.
Otherwise I mostly agree with your points.
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mahhy
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Posted - 2004.10.07 09:56:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Shadowsword
And you find dual mwd battleships setup for battles at, every corner of the street right?
Perhaps more often than you would expect. I've seen a good number of people use dual mwd BS's as part of a roving gank squad, deep in enemy territory. I think I've even been on the receiving end of a group of them (i didn't take the time to ship scan them, nor did I even have a ship scanner fitted, so don't quote me on that!)
Originally by: Shadowsword
The Devs, with their suggested changes, DID propose faster and cheaper missiles, but when some whiners on this forums started screaming about torps doing 60 damage on a frig, the changes were postponed. Maybe you should ponder that before complaining about speed and cost.
Weren't those two separate proposals? Speed/agility changes, then since those didn't work out (as I understood it, the Eve engine couldn't handle it properly), the proposal to change damage output based on sig radius was brought up.
Otherwise I mostly agree with your points.
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MaiLina KaTar
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Posted - 2004.10.07 10:16:00 -
[63]
Quote:
They are the most consitent damage dealing type in the game.
Maybe. But I think you'd agree on that they have a lot of drawbacks aswell?
From my experience missiles have become sort of a fourth turret type. They have their advantages and drawbacks. Just like hybrids have some advantages over lasers and vice versa, missiles share pretty much the same relation to the other turret types, but still the missile launcher ammo is much more expensive. That's pretty unfair IMHO.
IMO all battleships also should have equal capabilities when it comes to stuff like NPC hunting or other PvE activities. I think it's pretty unfair that someone who spent months training for his Raven faces increased costs for NPCing while someone who started out as Amarr/Gallente/Minmatar gets a perfect NPCing machine.
Missiles don't do enough damage to justify the extraordinary high cost. And having them require Zyd or Mega to be built is even worse IMO, even if it's just a tiny amount.
Someone who uses hybrid ammo can build all the supplies he needs from the recycled NPC loot. Someone who keeps using a Raven for NPCing for a few months will however have spent a lot of Zyd and Mega for his ammo. That's pretty harsh IMO.
Mai's Idealog |
MaiLina KaTar
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Posted - 2004.10.07 10:16:00 -
[64]
Quote:
They are the most consitent damage dealing type in the game.
Maybe. But I think you'd agree on that they have a lot of drawbacks aswell?
From my experience missiles have become sort of a fourth turret type. They have their advantages and drawbacks. Just like hybrids have some advantages over lasers and vice versa, missiles share pretty much the same relation to the other turret types, but still the missile launcher ammo is much more expensive. That's pretty unfair IMHO.
IMO all battleships also should have equal capabilities when it comes to stuff like NPC hunting or other PvE activities. I think it's pretty unfair that someone who spent months training for his Raven faces increased costs for NPCing while someone who started out as Amarr/Gallente/Minmatar gets a perfect NPCing machine.
Missiles don't do enough damage to justify the extraordinary high cost. And having them require Zyd or Mega to be built is even worse IMO, even if it's just a tiny amount.
Someone who uses hybrid ammo can build all the supplies he needs from the recycled NPC loot. Someone who keeps using a Raven for NPCing for a few months will however have spent a lot of Zyd and Mega for his ammo. That's pretty harsh IMO.
Mai's Idealog |
paxdey
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Posted - 2004.10.07 14:03:00 -
[65]
ok just a silly question from a nobie.
white tiger tells us how much it cost to fire the wepons per hour can some one tell me how much damage was dished out in that hour? starting from extream rng to say your optimal engagement rng. extream rng be the point where you can get a target lock
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paxdey
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Posted - 2004.10.07 14:03:00 -
[66]
ok just a silly question from a nobie.
white tiger tells us how much it cost to fire the wepons per hour can some one tell me how much damage was dished out in that hour? starting from extream rng to say your optimal engagement rng. extream rng be the point where you can get a target lock
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Shadowsword
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Posted - 2004.10.07 14:06:00 -
[67]
A lot more damage than ANY long range turret can do, and more than a lot close range ones.
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Shadowsword
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Posted - 2004.10.07 14:06:00 -
[68]
A lot more damage than ANY long range turret can do, and more than a lot close range ones.
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Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2004.10.07 14:53:00 -
[69]
Hmm, I think I deisagree here.
A little moe cost is what you get for flying the easiest to train for and most versatile tier2 BS ingame.
Sorry, but the way you name the downsides of missiles and then go on to downplay all teh pro's is not really a representation of how it is imo Daakkon.
Missiles are expensive ? So what ? You make slightly less of NPCing with a Raven then with a Turret using BS ? C'mon, theres bigger issues then that.
_______________________________________________
Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know.
Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online
Solutions to your issues. |
Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2004.10.07 14:53:00 -
[70]
Hmm, I think I deisagree here.
A little moe cost is what you get for flying the easiest to train for and most versatile tier2 BS ingame.
Sorry, but the way you name the downsides of missiles and then go on to downplay all teh pro's is not really a representation of how it is imo Daakkon.
Missiles are expensive ? So what ? You make slightly less of NPCing with a Raven then with a Turret using BS ? C'mon, theres bigger issues then that.
_______________________________________________
Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know.
Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online
Solutions to your issues. |
Shadowsword
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Posted - 2004.10.07 15:03:00 -
[71]
I'll also point out that most pirates I see (quite a few MAFIA, for the most part), use Ravens and Scorpions.
So missiles aren't that bad, are they?
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Shadowsword
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Posted - 2004.10.07 15:03:00 -
[72]
I'll also point out that most pirates I see (quite a few MAFIA, for the most part), use Ravens and Scorpions.
So missiles aren't that bad, are they?
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Rodge
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Posted - 2004.10.07 15:40:00 -
[73]
I npc hunt in 0.0 in my Raven using Cruise missiles. I appreciate that it costs a little more in ammo, but I build all my own missiles so i get them at cost. And if you collect all the loot that rats drop and reprocess it, it does (just about) cover the minerals needed to build cruise missiles. At least it did before Angels started dropping much less in loot.
Torps cost a lot more to build and I don't think the cost is justifiable for npc hunting, so I save them for PvP only. Torps make some of the biggest rats far too easy anyway.
So as an avid Raven NPC hunter, I don't think any changes are needed. The higher cost is balanced out by the relative lack of skills needed to use them.
[ 2005.04.17 00:34:30 ] Nagilam > u better leave Rodge, u will not gank any1 else 2nite......
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Rodge
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Posted - 2004.10.07 15:40:00 -
[74]
I npc hunt in 0.0 in my Raven using Cruise missiles. I appreciate that it costs a little more in ammo, but I build all my own missiles so i get them at cost. And if you collect all the loot that rats drop and reprocess it, it does (just about) cover the minerals needed to build cruise missiles. At least it did before Angels started dropping much less in loot.
Torps cost a lot more to build and I don't think the cost is justifiable for npc hunting, so I save them for PvP only. Torps make some of the biggest rats far too easy anyway.
So as an avid Raven NPC hunter, I don't think any changes are needed. The higher cost is balanced out by the relative lack of skills needed to use them.
[ 2005.04.17 00:34:30 ] Nagilam > u better leave Rodge, u will not gank any1 else 2nite......
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Nafri
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Posted - 2004.10.07 15:49:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Shadowsword
I'll also point out that most pirates I see (quite a few MAFIA, for the most part), use Ravens and Scorpions.
So missiles aren't that bad, are they?
thy just rock on EW
and most people trained caldari BS when thy ruled the battlefields
Wanna fly with me?
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Nafri
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Posted - 2004.10.07 15:49:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Shadowsword
I'll also point out that most pirates I see (quite a few MAFIA, for the most part), use Ravens and Scorpions.
So missiles aren't that bad, are they?
thy just rock on EW
and most people trained caldari BS when thy ruled the battlefields
Wanna fly with me?
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Meau
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Posted - 2004.10.07 15:54:00 -
[77]
Edited by: Meau on 07/10/2004 15:56:12
Not that it is of any relevance, but anyone else remember the first heavy missiles coming out in beta? 
They cost 100k+, and it was argued that this is fine, cause 4 will take out a heavy frigate, which costs 500k  .
Back to the discussion, <Meau over>
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Meau
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Posted - 2004.10.07 15:54:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Meau on 07/10/2004 15:56:12
Not that it is of any relevance, but anyone else remember the first heavy missiles coming out in beta?
They cost 100k+, and it was argued that this is fine, cause 4 will take out a heavy frigate, which costs 500k .
Back to the discussion, <Meau over>
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Cirle
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Posted - 2004.10.07 16:19:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Joshua Calvert
I can vaguely remember a promise that missile production costs would be changed a few patches ago but missiles still cost the same as they did from the start.
(expletive) not this debate again. Missile costs have come down in price at least twice since I started.
The first time, the production number was increased from 1 to 10 missiles per batch (did not check that the cost did not increase, but I think it didn't).
The second time was in the last patch where it was promised, with the cost of the missiles dropping by 1/2 to 1/3 of the previous value.
Yes, missiles cost more than ammunition, but it is still less than you make on the bounties for most things.
If you want comparitive costs, btw:
PrePatch:
Cataclysm (Cr Th)
47710 per batch
15.9 per point of damage (no resistances)
Wrath (Cr Ki):
35693 per batch
11.89 per point of damage
PostPatch:
Catalysm (Cr Th):
14676.5 per batch
4.89 per point of damage
Wrath (Cr Ki):
12989.5 per batch
4.32 per point of damage
If you consider large antimatter:
6413.5 per batch
0.5282 per point of damage
(assuming 110 damage per shot)
You can put your own average damage in there if you like.
Would I like missiles cheaper? Yes. Are they too expensive, not really. They mainly need an increase in base speed, and the specialisation skills.
If anything, ammunition is far too cheap and needs to be increased in cost. So why not just increase all ammunition costs by 5x?
Cirle |
Cirle
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Posted - 2004.10.07 16:19:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Joshua Calvert
I can vaguely remember a promise that missile production costs would be changed a few patches ago but missiles still cost the same as they did from the start.
(expletive) not this debate again. Missile costs have come down in price at least twice since I started.
The first time, the production number was increased from 1 to 10 missiles per batch (did not check that the cost did not increase, but I think it didn't).
The second time was in the last patch where it was promised, with the cost of the missiles dropping by 1/2 to 1/3 of the previous value.
Yes, missiles cost more than ammunition, but it is still less than you make on the bounties for most things.
If you want comparitive costs, btw:
PrePatch:
Cataclysm (Cr Th)
47710 per batch
15.9 per point of damage (no resistances)
Wrath (Cr Ki):
35693 per batch
11.89 per point of damage
PostPatch:
Catalysm (Cr Th):
14676.5 per batch
4.89 per point of damage
Wrath (Cr Ki):
12989.5 per batch
4.32 per point of damage
If you consider large antimatter:
6413.5 per batch
0.5282 per point of damage
(assuming 110 damage per shot)
You can put your own average damage in there if you like.
Would I like missiles cheaper? Yes. Are they too expensive, not really. They mainly need an increase in base speed, and the specialisation skills.
If anything, ammunition is far too cheap and needs to be increased in cost. So why not just increase all ammunition costs by 5x?
Cirle |
JoCool
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Posted - 2004.10.07 16:55:00 -
[81]
I agree that missiles are way too expensive for PvE - PvP must be irrelevant!
Tank's prices sound, although they're still as expensive as 20 Shots of the average large ammo piece, reasonable.
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JoCool
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Posted - 2004.10.07 16:55:00 -
[82]
I agree that missiles are way too expensive for PvE - PvP must be irrelevant!
Tank's prices sound, although they're still as expensive as 20 Shots of the average large ammo piece, reasonable.
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Marcus Grisbius
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Posted - 2004.10.07 17:52:00 -
[83]
First of all the missiles prices have been slashed twice since the beginning of the game. Being in the ammo production business for more than a year I've been able to watch missiles become more and more useable and sought after.
I remember torps going for the 20-30k apiece range not the the current 3-5k range. That was also before the Zydflation that we are experiencing today. The price of missiles has been reduced twice already since the beginning of the game. Right now the main cost of the missiles comes from the inflated Zydrine costs.
Aside from that, the benefits of using missiles are enormous for both PvP and NPC hunting. You can easily take on multiple bship rats with a decent raven setup. However, it takes a lot of skill and practice to achieve that with a turret based setup. Not to mention that you dont have to switch guns to hit the interceptor frigs with missiles.
The cost of the missiles is well worth the added assurance of being able to dish out incredible amounts of firepower. Being able to kill another ship even just 10 secs quicker can often spell the difference between having to collect insurance or not.
Certainty of death... little chance of success... what are we waiting for? - Gimli, son of Gloinn |
Marcus Grisbius
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Posted - 2004.10.07 17:52:00 -
[84]
First of all the missiles prices have been slashed twice since the beginning of the game. Being in the ammo production business for more than a year I've been able to watch missiles become more and more useable and sought after.
I remember torps going for the 20-30k apiece range not the the current 3-5k range. That was also before the Zydflation that we are experiencing today. The price of missiles has been reduced twice already since the beginning of the game. Right now the main cost of the missiles comes from the inflated Zydrine costs.
Aside from that, the benefits of using missiles are enormous for both PvP and NPC hunting. You can easily take on multiple bship rats with a decent raven setup. However, it takes a lot of skill and practice to achieve that with a turret based setup. Not to mention that you dont have to switch guns to hit the interceptor frigs with missiles.
The cost of the missiles is well worth the added assurance of being able to dish out incredible amounts of firepower. Being able to kill another ship even just 10 secs quicker can often spell the difference between having to collect insurance or not.
Certainty of death... little chance of success... what are we waiting for? - Gimli, son of Gloinn |
0subzero0
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Posted - 2004.10.07 18:41:00 -
[85]
K because it has alrdy been done that it makes ok ? I can take any real life exemple how stupid that sounded coming from you. And finally to shut this thing up: all you ppl saying that missiles do much more dmg that turrets PS: ALL YOUR INGAME BIOS SHOW A 1000+ DMG!!!!! put that times the number of times you hit before a torp and tell wich is worth paying for! To top it off, you apoc flyers can fit upt to 8 times that 1000dmg and have the pg to this while us raven flyers ponly have 11k pg wich is less then the arma WICH IS 40 mil less in COST!!!! so plz stop *****ing about how missiles are so much better then turrets when you shoot 8 times every 10-15 secs with your turrets having a almost 50 % chance of doing as much dmg as a torp at optimal range. tell me again why the price for torps are ok ?
---------------------------------------------
Yea thats right, I went there
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination. |
0subzero0
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Posted - 2004.10.07 18:41:00 -
[86]
K because it has alrdy been done that it makes ok ? I can take any real life exemple how stupid that sounded coming from you. And finally to shut this thing up: all you ppl saying that missiles do much more dmg that turrets PS: ALL YOUR INGAME BIOS SHOW A 1000+ DMG!!!!! put that times the number of times you hit before a torp and tell wich is worth paying for! To top it off, you apoc flyers can fit upt to 8 times that 1000dmg and have the pg to this while us raven flyers ponly have 11k pg wich is less then the arma WICH IS 40 mil less in COST!!!! so plz stop *****ing about how missiles are so much better then turrets when you shoot 8 times every 10-15 secs with your turrets having a almost 50 % chance of doing as much dmg as a torp at optimal range. tell me again why the price for torps are ok ?
---------------------------------------------
Yea thats right, I went there
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination. |
Daakkon
|
Posted - 2004.10.07 20:47:00 -
[87]
Edited by: Daakkon on 07/10/2004 20:53:39
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Hmm, I think I deisagree here.
A little moe cost is what you get for flying the easiest to train for and most versatile tier2 BS ingame.
Sorry, but the way you name the downsides of missiles and then go on to downplay all teh pro's is not really a representation of how it is imo Daakkon.
Missiles are expensive ? So what ? You make slightly less of NPCing with a Raven then with a Turret using BS ? C'mon, theres bigger issues then that.
In reply to how easy the Raven is to fly and train and how versitle it is as a Tier 2 Battleship. As I might recall, is there only Tech 1 Cruiser / Seige Launchers that have a 25 Sec+ ROF with out skills, Might I recall that theres only Tech 1 Weapon upgrades for missiles, not to mention look at how long it took for them to come out and just now they brought out meta weapon upgrades for Missiles.
Torps dont do anymore damage then turrets do, the ROF of missile launchers is what balances it out.
Might I recall thats theres only 3 skills out for missiles, might I recall that they released new tech 2 advance learning skills for gunnry? MISSILES ARE TO EXPENSIVE, END OF STORY.
us caldari ship pilots shouldn't be shafted if we wanna npc hunt
EDIT - I know here you say that missile cost don't effect the PVP'ist. Well what about the new player owned structures that have 3 million hit points? What then, are we actually going to use torps against that and speed over 10 mill to just blow up 1 little force field POS?
www.dark-cartel.com |
Daakkon
|
Posted - 2004.10.07 20:47:00 -
[88]
Edited by: Daakkon on 07/10/2004 20:53:39
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Hmm, I think I deisagree here.
A little moe cost is what you get for flying the easiest to train for and most versatile tier2 BS ingame.
Sorry, but the way you name the downsides of missiles and then go on to downplay all teh pro's is not really a representation of how it is imo Daakkon.
Missiles are expensive ? So what ? You make slightly less of NPCing with a Raven then with a Turret using BS ? C'mon, theres bigger issues then that.
In reply to how easy the Raven is to fly and train and how versitle it is as a Tier 2 Battleship. As I might recall, is there only Tech 1 Cruiser / Seige Launchers that have a 25 Sec+ ROF with out skills, Might I recall that theres only Tech 1 Weapon upgrades for missiles, not to mention look at how long it took for them to come out and just now they brought out meta weapon upgrades for Missiles.
Torps dont do anymore damage then turrets do, the ROF of missile launchers is what balances it out.
Might I recall thats theres only 3 skills out for missiles, might I recall that they released new tech 2 advance learning skills for gunnry? MISSILES ARE TO EXPENSIVE, END OF STORY.
us caldari ship pilots shouldn't be shafted if we wanna npc hunt
EDIT - I know here you say that missile cost don't effect the PVP'ist. Well what about the new player owned structures that have 3 million hit points? What then, are we actually going to use torps against that and speed over 10 mill to just blow up 1 little force field POS?
www.dark-cartel.com |
Grim Vandal
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Posted - 2004.10.07 22:26:00 -
[89]
well missiles get changed in one way or another ...
... confirmed by the devs ...
read here for more information how they would be changed.
Teh price for missiles is fine atm. However if the change above gets in or something similar (torps, cruise would do less dmg vs smaller targets .....) than I agree that missiles should be cheaper. Anyway nothing will happen till shiva hits the fan.
Greetings Grim |
Grim Vandal
|
Posted - 2004.10.07 22:26:00 -
[90]
well missiles get changed in one way or another ...
... confirmed by the devs ...
read here for more information how they would be changed.
Teh price for missiles is fine atm. However if the change above gets in or something similar (torps, cruise would do less dmg vs smaller targets .....) than I agree that missiles should be cheaper. Anyway nothing will happen till shiva hits the fan.
Greetings Grim |
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