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gk0r
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Posted - 2004.10.11 06:04:00 -
[61]
That's a very good analysis. Very right down to it, however I have a "just-as-good" question as yours.
Many players have all learning skills they need at level 4. If they decide to upgrade them to level 5 and then train those advanced learning skills to level 4 - What's the minimum timeframe when this action will pay itself off? Break even?
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I make up with stupidity for the rest of my corporation.
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gk0r
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Posted - 2004.10.11 06:04:00 -
[62]
That's a very good analysis. Very right down to it, however I have a "just-as-good" question as yours.
Many players have all learning skills they need at level 4. If they decide to upgrade them to level 5 and then train those advanced learning skills to level 4 - What's the minimum timeframe when this action will pay itself off? Break even?
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I make up with stupidity for the rest of my corporation.
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Tripoli
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Posted - 2004.10.11 07:16:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Tripoli on 11/10/2004 07:19:52
Oh God please no more math. 
Suffice to say that it's worth doing.
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Tripoli
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Posted - 2004.10.11 07:16:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Tripoli on 11/10/2004 07:19:52
Oh God please no more math.
Suffice to say that it's worth doing.
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Dzikus
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Posted - 2004.10.11 07:58:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Dzikus on 11/10/2004 08:00:35
I was calculating it using other way.
If you rise your primary attribute +1, you will gain additional +60 SP/hour (+6 bonus from Learning 5 = +66)
If you rise your secondary attribute +1, you will gain additional +30 SP/hour (+3 bonus from Learning 5 = +33).
So if you rise Int/Mem both to +5, you will get addtional +450 SP/hour. With 5 Learning it will be +495 SP/hour.
For rising these two attributes to +5 you have to spent 2x768.000 SP= 1.536.000 SP. So you get it back in 3103 hours = 129 days = about 3 Months.
I know that I'm speaking about a little different thing - Tripoli calculated how much it will take to get back SP invested in 5th point alone. But if I train Adv. Learning, I see it all as an investment - all 5 levels of it. So in this way - I will get all my investet SPs in about 3 month/pair of attributes.
So I will get back my SPs for rising all Adv Learning to +5 in about 7.5 months (Return of Investment) and I will be better then anyone with +4 adv learning after next 3 years 
_________________
Never Give Up, Never Surrender! |
Dzikus
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Posted - 2004.10.11 07:58:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Dzikus on 11/10/2004 08:00:35
I was calculating it using other way.
If you rise your primary attribute +1, you will gain additional +60 SP/hour (+6 bonus from Learning 5 = +66)
If you rise your secondary attribute +1, you will gain additional +30 SP/hour (+3 bonus from Learning 5 = +33).
So if you rise Int/Mem both to +5, you will get addtional +450 SP/hour. With 5 Learning it will be +495 SP/hour.
For rising these two attributes to +5 you have to spent 2x768.000 SP= 1.536.000 SP. So you get it back in 3103 hours = 129 days = about 3 Months.
I know that I'm speaking about a little different thing - Tripoli calculated how much it will take to get back SP invested in 5th point alone. But if I train Adv. Learning, I see it all as an investment - all 5 levels of it. So in this way - I will get all my investet SPs in about 3 month/pair of attributes.
So I will get back my SPs for rising all Adv Learning to +5 in about 7.5 months (Return of Investment) and I will be better then anyone with +4 adv learning after next 3 years
_________________
Never Give Up, Never Surrender! |
ElHofi
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Posted - 2004.10.11 12:02:00 -
[67]
Ok, no more math!
Let¦s do it with an practical example:
Before the advanced learning skills were available i had perception 19 and memory 19.
I was considering train Drone Interfaces ( Prim. Att.: Memory, Sec. Att. Perception ) from 4 to 5 which would have needed 25 days and (i do not remember exactly) 8 hours.
I trained up clarity to 4 and eidetic memory to 4, so, because of the learning skill effect both attributes, memory and perception are on 24 now.
To get both advanced learning skill at 4 i trained a bit below 6 days.
Now to get Drone Interfaces at 5 i need 20 days 3 hours 48 minutes.
I lost 1 day. But if i would train Hvy Drone Operation to 5 too ( same Rank, same time) i would win 4 days.
At the end a simple math:
without the advanced skills:
Drone Interfacing to 5 = 25 days 8 hours
Hvy Drone Operation to 5 = 25 days 8 hours
------------------
Result: 50 days 16 hours
with advanced skills at lvl 4:
Clarity from 0 to 4 3 days
Eidetic Memory fro 0 to 4 3 days
Drone Interfacing to 5 = 20 days 4 hours ( rounded up the minutes )
Hvy Drone Operation to 5 = 20 days 4 hours ( rounded up the minutes )
-----------------
Result: 46 days 8 hours
After 46 days, i have already won 4 days to train another skill.
Who said you have them to train them immediately up to lvl 5?
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ElHofi
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Posted - 2004.10.11 12:02:00 -
[68]
Ok, no more math!
Let¦s do it with an practical example:
Before the advanced learning skills were available i had perception 19 and memory 19.
I was considering train Drone Interfaces ( Prim. Att.: Memory, Sec. Att. Perception ) from 4 to 5 which would have needed 25 days and (i do not remember exactly) 8 hours.
I trained up clarity to 4 and eidetic memory to 4, so, because of the learning skill effect both attributes, memory and perception are on 24 now.
To get both advanced learning skill at 4 i trained a bit below 6 days.
Now to get Drone Interfaces at 5 i need 20 days 3 hours 48 minutes.
I lost 1 day. But if i would train Hvy Drone Operation to 5 too ( same Rank, same time) i would win 4 days.
At the end a simple math:
without the advanced skills:
Drone Interfacing to 5 = 25 days 8 hours
Hvy Drone Operation to 5 = 25 days 8 hours
------------------
Result: 50 days 16 hours
with advanced skills at lvl 4:
Clarity from 0 to 4 3 days
Eidetic Memory fro 0 to 4 3 days
Drone Interfacing to 5 = 20 days 4 hours ( rounded up the minutes )
Hvy Drone Operation to 5 = 20 days 4 hours ( rounded up the minutes )
-----------------
Result: 46 days 8 hours
After 46 days, i have already won 4 days to train another skill.
Who said you have them to train them immediately up to lvl 5?
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Severe McCald
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Posted - 2004.10.11 14:48:00 -
[69]
Tripoli, could you help me out here? I am confused.
As I understand the way learning skills work, each additional attribute point gives a diminishing return on investment. To take a theoretical model, if base memory and intelligence were each 10, then training up the basic memory and intelligence learning skills by one level would reduce training time (for skills using these two attributes) by 9.09 % (recurring). Training up another point (on each) would reduce training time by a further 8.33% and so on.
Accordingly, going from 10 to 11 on an attribute gives a much greater improvement in training times than going from 20 to 21.
On that basis, one might expect that the percentage improvement in training time obtained by a character without implants to be greater than the percentage improvement in a character with implants. Do you agree with this statement?
However, if you start with higher attributes, the time spent training the advanced learning skills will be reduced (when compared to the person with lower attributes), in proportion to the benefit received from that training. That is, if your attributes enable you to train the advanced learning skills twice as quickly as another character, the benefit you receive from that training is half the benefit received by that other character. Hence the "straight line" increase you refer to.
Have I understood it correctly?
Severe
And Moses was content to dwell with the man:and he gave Moses Zipporah his daughter. And she bare him a son, and he called his name Gershom:for he said, I have been a stranger in a strange land. |
Severe McCald
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Posted - 2004.10.11 14:48:00 -
[70]
Tripoli, could you help me out here? I am confused.
As I understand the way learning skills work, each additional attribute point gives a diminishing return on investment. To take a theoretical model, if base memory and intelligence were each 10, then training up the basic memory and intelligence learning skills by one level would reduce training time (for skills using these two attributes) by 9.09 % (recurring). Training up another point (on each) would reduce training time by a further 8.33% and so on.
Accordingly, going from 10 to 11 on an attribute gives a much greater improvement in training times than going from 20 to 21.
On that basis, one might expect that the percentage improvement in training time obtained by a character without implants to be greater than the percentage improvement in a character with implants. Do you agree with this statement?
However, if you start with higher attributes, the time spent training the advanced learning skills will be reduced (when compared to the person with lower attributes), in proportion to the benefit received from that training. That is, if your attributes enable you to train the advanced learning skills twice as quickly as another character, the benefit you receive from that training is half the benefit received by that other character. Hence the "straight line" increase you refer to.
Have I understood it correctly?
Severe
And Moses was content to dwell with the man:and he gave Moses Zipporah his daughter. And she bare him a son, and he called his name Gershom:for he said, I have been a stranger in a strange land. |
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anthonieak
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Posted - 2004.10.11 15:53:00 -
[71]
Edited by: anthonieak on 11/10/2004 15:56:32
It pays off in the end. but some skills you want too learn first because it gives you more R&D points or better refining effinciency or better production effinciency.
You plan in future but you life now. And what will happen in 3 months or even 3 years from now are you still playing eve or did someone or something crossed your path.
I think i will train too 4 then train some other skils first and in mean while if time lets me i train the skills too lvl 5. That will be if i play an other game or be on vacation.
AK
***********************************************
Missing Lola Gold Since 6-4-2004
Miner Addicted |
anthonieak
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Posted - 2004.10.11 15:53:00 -
[72]
Edited by: anthonieak on 11/10/2004 15:56:32
It pays off in the end. but some skills you want too learn first because it gives you more R&D points or better refining effinciency or better production effinciency.
You plan in future but you life now. And what will happen in 3 months or even 3 years from now are you still playing eve or did someone or something crossed your path.
I think i will train too 4 then train some other skils first and in mean while if time lets me i train the skills too lvl 5. That will be if i play an other game or be on vacation.
AK
***********************************************
Missing Lola Gold Since 6-4-2004
Miner Addicted |
Tripoli
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Posted - 2004.10.11 23:19:00 -
[73]
 Originally by: Severe McCald
As I understand the way learning skills work, each additional attribute point gives a diminishing return on investment. To take a theoretical model, if base memory and intelligence were each 10, then training up the basic memory and intelligence learning skills by one level would reduce training time (for skills using these two attributes) by 9.09 % (recurring). Training up another point (on each) would reduce training time by a further 8.33% and so on.
Accordingly, going from 10 to 11 on an attribute gives a much greater improvement in training times than going from 20 to 21.
On that basis, one might expect that the percentage improvement in training time obtained by a character without implants to be greater than the percentage improvement in a character with implants. Do you agree with this statement?
However, if you start with higher attributes, the time spent training the advanced learning skills will be reduced (when compared to the person with lower attributes), in proportion to the benefit received from that training. That is, if your attributes enable you to train the advanced learning skills twice as quickly as another character, the benefit you receive from that training is half the benefit received by that other character. Hence the "straight line" increase you refer to.
As your attribute improve your training TIME decreases in a non-linear manner; however, the number of SP/day you can train increases on a linear scale.
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Tripoli
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Posted - 2004.10.11 23:19:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Severe McCald
As I understand the way learning skills work, each additional attribute point gives a diminishing return on investment. To take a theoretical model, if base memory and intelligence were each 10, then training up the basic memory and intelligence learning skills by one level would reduce training time (for skills using these two attributes) by 9.09 % (recurring). Training up another point (on each) would reduce training time by a further 8.33% and so on.
Accordingly, going from 10 to 11 on an attribute gives a much greater improvement in training times than going from 20 to 21.
On that basis, one might expect that the percentage improvement in training time obtained by a character without implants to be greater than the percentage improvement in a character with implants. Do you agree with this statement?
However, if you start with higher attributes, the time spent training the advanced learning skills will be reduced (when compared to the person with lower attributes), in proportion to the benefit received from that training. That is, if your attributes enable you to train the advanced learning skills twice as quickly as another character, the benefit you receive from that training is half the benefit received by that other character. Hence the "straight line" increase you refer to.
As your attribute improve your training TIME decreases in a non-linear manner; however, the number of SP/day you can train increases on a linear scale.
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Tripoli
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Posted - 2004.10.12 17:02:00 -
[75]
Entity's Post
Another post well worth reading as it tells the time to payoff training the advaced learning skills from level 0 to 5. My calculation was only the payoff for training the last level of them.
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Tripoli
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Posted - 2004.10.12 17:02:00 -
[76]
Entity's Post
Another post well worth reading as it tells the time to payoff training the advaced learning skills from level 0 to 5. My calculation was only the payoff for training the last level of them.
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Nerhtal Al'Thali
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Posted - 2004.10.13 06:57:00 -
[77]
Usefull information - shame its not a sticky yet!
"Game Experience And Dev Opinions May Change With The Time Of Day During Online Play"
Oveur
"First in, last out"
Bridgeburner Motto |
Nerhtal Al'Thali
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Posted - 2004.10.13 06:57:00 -
[78]
Usefull information - shame its not a sticky yet!
"Game Experience And Dev Opinions May Change With The Time Of Day During Online Play"
Oveur
"First in, last out"
Bridgeburner Motto |
Kaeten
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Posted - 2004.10.13 14:33:00 -
[79]
Im training all except the Charisma to 5 FULL STOP. (I started with charisma 12 :()
___________________________________
Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante
Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante
Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante |
Kaeten
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Posted - 2004.10.13 14:33:00 -
[80]
Im training all except the Charisma to 5 FULL STOP. (I started with charisma 12 :()
___________________________________
Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante
Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante
Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante |
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Chuck Yeager
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Posted - 2004.10.25 13:20:00 -
[81]
Im just gonna get them all to lvl4, i figure even then it will be 1/2 a year or somthign to get my sps back but its worth it just to have each skill train that bit faster, i getting one point on a primary attribute can reduce th training time for a 5day skill by several hours 5-7 or so.
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Chuck Yeager
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Posted - 2004.10.25 13:20:00 -
[82]
Im just gonna get them all to lvl4, i figure even then it will be 1/2 a year or somthign to get my sps back but its worth it just to have each skill train that bit faster, i getting one point on a primary attribute can reduce th training time for a 5day skill by several hours 5-7 or so.
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Mean Jeebus
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Posted - 2004.10.25 16:55:00 -
[83]
yay Texa$
\o/
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Mean Jeebus
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Posted - 2004.10.25 16:55:00 -
[84]
yay Texa$
\o/
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Frozen Light
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Posted - 2004.10.26 07:00:00 -
[85]
After checking the math in this post (My head still hurts), I think the time spend in traning from lvl 4 to lvl 5 can be used to train other more useful stuff like weapon skills and so on. So it really doesn't matter if you can get large turret skill to level 5 4 days earlier than me when I take down your BS and pod you :)
So do you really NEED level 5? Can't say that you do. Level 4? Well, that's what I'll train.
// Frozen
--
Currents ships lost in Exodus: 3x Moa, 1x Kestrel, 1x Merlin
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Frozen Light
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Posted - 2004.10.26 07:00:00 -
[86]
After checking the math in this post (My head still hurts), I think the time spend in traning from lvl 4 to lvl 5 can be used to train other more useful stuff like weapon skills and so on. So it really doesn't matter if you can get large turret skill to level 5 4 days earlier than me when I take down your BS and pod you :)
So do you really NEED level 5? Can't say that you do. Level 4? Well, that's what I'll train.
// Frozen
--
Currents ships lost in Exodus: 3x Moa, 1x Kestrel, 1x Merlin
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Einheriar Ulrich
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Posted - 2004.10.26 20:05:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Frozen Light
After checking the math in this post (My head still hurts), I think the time spend in traning from lvl 4 to lvl 5 can be used to train other more useful stuff like weapon skills and so on. So it really doesn't matter if you can get large turret skill to level 5 4 days earlier than me when I take down your BS and pod you :)
So do you really NEED level 5? Can't say that you do. Level 4? Well, that's what I'll train.
// Frozen
Sooner or later you will have to learn them anyway, new things, new skills coming ingame
So Say I. Einheriar Ulrich of the Bloodline of Einheriar.
****Minion Of VOTF****
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Einheriar Ulrich
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Posted - 2004.10.26 20:05:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Frozen Light
After checking the math in this post (My head still hurts), I think the time spend in traning from lvl 4 to lvl 5 can be used to train other more useful stuff like weapon skills and so on. So it really doesn't matter if you can get large turret skill to level 5 4 days earlier than me when I take down your BS and pod you :)
So do you really NEED level 5? Can't say that you do. Level 4? Well, that's what I'll train.
// Frozen
Sooner or later you will have to learn them anyway, new things, new skills coming ingame
So Say I. Einheriar Ulrich of the Bloodline of Einheriar.
****Minion Of VOTF****
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Zzazzt
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Posted - 2004.10.27 02:09:00 -
[89]
Here's one:
People used to say the same thing about the basic learning skills not being worth the lvl 5 "back in the day". Then BOOM! Advanced learning skills with lvl 5 prereqs in the basics!
How smug was I when the advanced skills were announced?
I would say that the advanced skills pertaining to your chosen "career" are worth the time, and the more redundant ones best left at 4.
That way, when/if the "uber advanced" learning skills come out, you're good to go for the skills that will benefit you most.
____________________________________________
MLM: Gentlemen at Play |
Zzazzt
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Posted - 2004.10.27 02:09:00 -
[90]
Here's one:
People used to say the same thing about the basic learning skills not being worth the lvl 5 "back in the day". Then BOOM! Advanced learning skills with lvl 5 prereqs in the basics!
How smug was I when the advanced skills were announced?
I would say that the advanced skills pertaining to your chosen "career" are worth the time, and the more redundant ones best left at 4.
That way, when/if the "uber advanced" learning skills come out, you're good to go for the skills that will benefit you most.
____________________________________________
MLM: Gentlemen at Play |
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