| Pages: 1 2 :: [one page] |
|
|
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Mac Shrike
   |
Posted - 2009.08.11 13:43:00 -
[1]
Ls,
First of all, thank you for reading this, hope you enjoy EVE as much as I do. Its all good...
or is it?!  (just did that for the tension bild up)
Second of all excuse any misspellings. Its not my native language.
So its about loot stealing.
Salvaging falls under maretime law and is free for all i say. Enoying sometimes but .. hey so is life.
Stealing loot from a wreck gives an aggro timer.
From my corp mates i have learned that its only 15 minutes. Thats a bit short me thinks.
When stealing loot in highsec and the owner is a witness of the crime. Aggro timer should be indefinite. Not a measily 15 minutes. When the owner doesnt see it well ok maybe 15 minutes might stick as he just got lucky because concord cant be bothered with petty theft.
But when witnessed by the owner....
I know he's a pirate, concord knows it, give me a change to get my own back!
After the timer there's no way to get even. The aggro timer in low sec/ 0.0 sure.. concord doesnt go there so let it be after that.
But high sec is supposed to be lawfull. If they never leave high sec ill be shot for engaging them.
If concord isn' t going to do to them what concord would do to me for doing it to them (still with me?), they should allow me to protect my own interests, in high sec they should be fair game to me, as the owner of the stolen property.
Background event that led me to this post:
-------------------------------------------
Just recently i powerlessly had to watch , again, how ninja's (i suppose calling yourself that when you're a thief keeps up the self esteem. you guys are not ninja's you're salvagers) were getting my wrecks once i came back in a salvager.
Well good for them. ****ty but thats the game.
All I could do was try to beat em to the large wrecks.
Then to taunt me even further they stole from the cans! yes! now they were fair game! They became real pirates! Hooray!
So i flew back to a station to swap for something that would be an adequate match and returned to take them on.
They were afcourse gone (Ok so that's ninja i have to admit)
Still i found the culprit and started the hunt. Once closing in.... he logged... maybe he had to change his ninja pants after ****ting em..
By now I had only about 6 minutes left to find they safespot they were ninjaing in. I didnt make it in time afcourse. Or maybe not afcourse, i just didnt make it.
So now he is just hanging outside the station and i cant touch him.. 15 minutes later.
Thats not right. Its high sec. There should be some law in here. Witnessed stealing should be a full piracy act . With killright to the owner of the stolen loot.
Well thanks for reading. Dont know why i wrote it... feel better now..
Is this worth a petition?
Regards,
Mac
|
Spud Mackenzie
|
Posted - 2009.08.11 13:49:00 -
[2]
Wow... long post.
In short, you want a longer aggro timer because you can't be bothered to fight back within 15min.
If you choose not to engage within that 15min timer, Concord assumes you didn't intend on fighting them to begin with. So everything goes back to normal.
|
Mac Shrike
|
Posted - 2009.08.11 13:53:00 -
[3]
DOH!
Yeah its long but if you dont read it dont respond assuming you know whats in it.
If you read it you will see i did considerable efforts to engage.
|
Robert Caldera
|
Posted - 2009.08.11 13:54:00 -
[4]
if you're talking about player loot, there maybe a stuff for duscussion.
if you're talking about NPC loot... well, there should be no ownership of NPC goods and therefore no "your loot" at all.
|
Mac Shrike
|
Posted - 2009.08.11 14:00:00 -
[5]
Well you got into the discussion so there apperantly is one.
NPC loot is loot. Look it has the loot word in there.
If they acknowledge that by making it punishable they should just make it punishable.
Not let the crime, wich they have acknlowleged it is, expire in 15 minutes. In high sec anyway.
|
Robert Caldera
|
Posted - 2009.08.11 14:02:00 -
[6]
well, NPC loot should keeping its ownership to NPC anyways so there is no discussion stuff about worsing a wrong mechanic.
|
Mac Shrike
|
Posted - 2009.08.11 14:07:00 -
[7]
Well no actually,
It was caldari state that asked me to take em on. Targeted the NPC's as criminals unwanted and viable targets. So I was acting with a mandate. They were there at their own risk.
Had they been otherwise. Concord would have stopped me.
So they have no rights.
Owning stuff doesnt make it loot. Killing someone and taking stuff makes it loot.
Stealing loot, is still stealing.
|
Robert Caldera
|
Posted - 2009.08.11 14:11:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Robert Caldera on 11/08/2009 14:16:33
its NPC stuff, not yours. its the same as in 0.0 where is no "caldari state", so its just a broken ownership mechanic.
NPC loot should never belong to any player, robbery of a criminal is still a robbery...
|
Mac Shrike
|
Posted - 2009.08.11 14:20:00 -
[9]
Doh, not! You numskull
I have kill rights on the pirates(NPC)when accepting the mission.
Ownership of content/loot is set by the killer. Not the original owner.
This is already acklowledged by CCP and worked into the game mechanics.
The stealing of loot is criminal. Therefore you become a pirate if you do so.
Im just saying....
Just gimme more then 15 minutes to get it back myself or let concord engage them when an actuall theft is witnessed.
If someone steals your stuff the only way to get it back is to get into his ship.
Officer: Sir you are under arrest!
Me: What?! For what
Officer: For breaking into that car and stealing the radio.
Me: But it is my radio, he broke into my car, stole it and put it into his. I just wanted to get it back. Look it even has my name on it!
Officer: Yeah but that was 15 minutes ago. So thats ok.
|
Robert Caldera
|
Posted - 2009.08.11 14:23:00 -
[10]
yes, for player loot you're right, not for NPC, stealing their radios does not make them yours. A theft on a criminal is still theft.
|
|
|
Mac Shrike
|
Posted - 2009.08.11 14:30:00 -
[11]
AArg, buy a brain.
Its not stealing. Its spoils of war.
Wich makes them your property.
Taking it is not a criminal act. Stealing them (within the boundries of the high sec state) is.
The loot is officialy yours. Wich is why it is tagged with your name.
Stealing it after it has become yours is criminal.
Although if the guristas would one day rule the EVE universe. We might see that they disagree and put us all up on trial.
Until then we are allowed to take the spoils to cover the costs of removing them for beeing a nuisance and tresspassing.
|
Robert Caldera
|
Posted - 2009.08.11 14:35:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Robert Caldera on 11/08/2009 14:35:26
you're not in a war(where nobody cares about ownership anyways), you're fighting criminals. The consequence of that is broken loot ownership implementation, if I kill you as criminal I would commit a robbery taking your stuff. The same should apply to the NPC stuff.
|
Ichiro Sanchas
Caldari
Dark Star Industries
|
Posted - 2009.08.11 14:39:00 -
[13]
If you're going to mine, have a guard or two around. All the time. Yes, pay them a share of what's mined.
Yes, even in high-sec. Hell, especially in high-sec.
Problem solved.
|
Mac Shrike
|
Posted - 2009.08.11 14:49:00 -
[14]
Ok i'll agree to disagree. Because you seem to be fond of talking philosophy and in general; In real life, i would have to agree with you.
Its the war on criminals then =/
In this case/game;
I shoot npc = me own content and not me = criminal.
You take content = you = criminal to me.
Concord says so but not shoot you.
You criminal to me = you a viable target to me and me not = criminal.
Me shoot you after 15 minutes = me = criminal.
Concord shoot me.
Im just saying.... again... since the theft fact has already been established and acknowledged
making it a criminal act for only 15 minutes... in high sec.... doesnt make sense or allow for appropriate action.
Since there is no court to appeal to all you can do is try to get it back.
|
Nemiron
Amarr
Katsu Corporation
|
Posted - 2009.08.11 14:50:00 -
[15]
How long would you think you should be able to shoot a thief, if 15mins are not enough?
|
Mac Shrike
|
Posted - 2009.08.11 14:58:00 -
[16]
Well thats a good question.
Dunno. 1 day? 24 hours? a week?
You still have to find the perp yourself. So its not like they are fair game to everybody.
Would make
A: stealing more exiting.
B: hunting them an option for at least a day.
C: They would have to be more carefull in the region the steal in. wich makes sense. right?
Also if nobody witnesses it. Sure 15 minutes to get clear. I can get that.
But a theft witnessed by the owner and confirmed by concord (formality) should carry some weight.
|
Ichiro Sanchas
Caldari
Dark Star Industries
|
Posted - 2009.08.11 15:00:00 -
[17]
The problem here is that you think CONCORD is the police. CONCORD is NOT the police.
Think of CONCORD as a completely corrupt 1930s noir novel beat cop working in Harlem. He's not there to protect you. He's there to keep the peace. And he doesn't like paperwork. If you get mugged, he'll look the other way while YOU beat the crap out of the mugger. If you get murdered, he'll shoot the murderer and toss the murderer's body in the dumpster.
If you can't be bothered to beat the crap out of person that mugged you, he'll laugh at you and move on. He's not going to arrest the mugger, or even file a report. That's paperwork, and he hates paperwork.
If you're going to mine, have a guard around. All the time. Even in high-sec. Then, when you get mugged, your guard can beat the crap out of the mugger. More likely, the fact that you have a guard out will keep you from getting mugged. Muggers don't like fair fights.
|
Robert Caldera
|
Posted - 2009.08.11 15:02:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Robert Caldera on 11/08/2009 15:02:52
I know what you mean, you want to extend the timeframe for pursuing the "thief" already granted to you by concord.
I'm just saying you should actually get no timeframe and flagging for that at all, since you're as criminal as others taking r*ped NPC stuff in my opinion.
|
Mac Shrike
|
Posted - 2009.08.11 15:14:00 -
[19]
Yeah that's probably true. ABout concord and 30's cops
Especially because you can pay em off for a war dec.
So... k. thats true. Concorordzakov: an old concept with a new name.
Ok well.... frag... how about 1 hour then.
Ok i agree...
just a last point....
I find the number of small corps that just do nothing and scan and loot growing to annoying numbers and taking the sense out of missioning alone. Something a lot of people like.
The mission reward hardly covers the ammo spend.
So salvaging is a must then to make some isk.
There is no way,other then the 15 minutes you get for changing from your bathrobe and getting some clothes on to go after the perp.
Wich i find... very frustrating.
At least.. a witnessed theft crime, if not punishable by concord should lead to a really hefty sec stat drop.
This way they would have to get out of the closet so to speak and become true pirates in a very short time.
Well i shut up now.
thx for the feedback
|
Mac Shrike
|
Posted - 2009.08.11 15:17:00 -
[20]
Yeah caldera your a real carebear for NPC's i gathered that.
Its just a fail philosopy in EVE. Might be true in the sol system. But not here.
If you are recruited by the state to take out some, ok criminals, they give you carte blanche. obove the law... in the law actually.. bad law maybe but thats how it is.
|
|
|
Robert Caldera
|
Posted - 2009.08.11 15:24:00 -
[21]
i'm just thinking nobody should become a legitimate owner of stolen/r*ped stuff from criminals. Neither in real life nor in eve, the stuff should remain NPC and, hence, free for any player to take.
|
Mac Shrike
|
Posted - 2009.08.11 16:13:00 -
[22]
You are just deliberatly spamming up this topic.
You know you are supposed to be making a new topic for yourself called "I love NPC's and think we should all give back what we have taken dont you agree.. ill gladly act if my nose bleeds and start talking around the subject"
To humour you or rather myself here is a mission exerpt wich explains, for the last time, what this topic is about:
A large convoy was spotted in a nearby system, apparently en route straight through Pator. This is a perfect chance for you to show us what you're worth. This convoy comes with a large escort, so you better go out there prepared. I want you to intercept the convoy after it makes the jump into Pator; Destroy the ships if they don't surrender their goods, and bring anything you can salvage back to me. I'll split the loot. Sounds fair eh?
In this case even. Stealing loot from this salvage is stealing directly from caldari state. Ergo should have some repercussions.
No its not fair.. to the intruders... but if you let em intrude enough they will take your stuff and kick you out wich is not fair either.
In a war taking stuff from the opponent is called commandeering not stealing. Fairness had nothing to do with it. Its about survival.
QED you are an arse. And i hope you just go extinct fast. Just to be fair.
|
Spud Mackenzie
|
Posted - 2009.08.11 16:14:00 -
[23]
LOL
I get the feeling that Mac here is new to the forums.
And yet... he's got Robert Caldera down great.
Every time anything pertaining to loot comes up, Robby will be there with his "Loot belongs to the Rats" speeches.
|
Spud Mackenzie
|
Posted - 2009.08.11 16:17:00 -
[24]
As for the topic at hand...
Even if you increased the aggro to 1hr, thieves would just to hide and wait that much longer.
The example you gave, of leaving to get a bigger ship and finding he'd run away, shows that he wasn't interested in a challenge. He wanted you to fight with a miner, so he could lol in Local at your failure. When you looked to be gearing up to give him a run for his money, he chickened out and ran away.
So regardless of whether its 15min or 6hrs, if they think they could lose the day, they will wait it out.
|
Robert Caldera
|
Posted - 2009.08.11 16:31:00 -
[25]
no
its still my opinion you shouldn't get the legal ownership of any stuff dropped by NPC.
your mission text does not give any proof or support for your argumentation since it does not address any ownership issue besides of... wait I mark the relevant part of it for you:
 Originally by: Mac Shrike
Destroy the ships if they don't surrender their goods, and bring anything you can salvage back to me. I'll split the loot. Sounds fair eh? [/i]
do you read "your loot" or "your goods" somewhere??? Its just a **** of criminals and their goods and does not address any legality of ownership questions, so does not matter actually.
|
Spud Mackenzie
|
Posted - 2009.08.11 16:44:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Robert Caldera
do you read "your loot" or "your goods" somewhere??? Its just a rape of criminals and their goods and does not address any legality of ownership questions, so does not matter actually.
Is there any particular reason you keep using the term "rape" over and over?
Have you considered talking to a therapist about this obsession you have? Because I don't think its very healthy.
What he, and the rest of EVE in general, are referring to... is when a combat mission says "Pirates are invading our space, harassing our citizens, and generally causing havoc. Please kill them, and anything you find is yours."
|
Schalac
Caldari
Apocalypse Reign
|
Posted - 2009.08.11 17:00:00 -
[27]
This sounds like a good suggestion. As it stands someone can scan down your mission steal your stuff and then hide in station for 15 mins and then do it again. If the aggro timer was lengthened you can camp someone into station for a good bit longer if they steal your stuff. I think that's fair. And the fact that they would have to be on grid with you when it is done to get the lengthened aggro timer would be awesome. I can already see people cloaked in their own missions waiting for the thief to take loot from their cans. It would be a nice addition.
SCHALAC HAS SPOKEN |
Robert Caldera
|
Posted - 2009.08.11 17:30:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Robert Caldera on 11/08/2009 17:31:00
Originally by: Spud Mackenzie
Is there any particular reason you keep using the term "rape" over and over?
because its the best term I think of what the most mission runners do
Originally by: Spud Mackenzie
What he, and the rest of EVE in general, are referring to... is when a combat mission says "Pirates are invading our space, harassing our citizens, and generally causing havoc. Please kill them, and anything you find is yours."
yes, its your understanding of all the mission stuff, in fact there is no explicit reason why the loot ownership is moved to the killer of rats, its free for interpretation. In my understanding the NPC factions are parts of the universe(you didnt read the chronicles, did you?), independetly where they reside and should enjoy all priviligies anyone else does, even blinky outlaws keep the ownership to their stuff. The fact there are the same ownership rules in 0.0, outside all NPC governments, I conclude a general behavior of NPC loot, including that from missions, which is wrong IN MY OPINION!
The OP requested en extension of the flagging period, I request its reduction to 0 in return, so what??
|
AtheistOfDoom
Amarr
The Athiest Syndicate
Advocated Destruction
|
Posted - 2009.08.11 17:47:00 -
[29]
Honestly I think the 1930s cop post summed it up pretty well.
Pew Pew Lazorz!!! |
Ezevector
|
Posted - 2009.08.11 19:03:00 -
[30]
I think the entire can-stealing/aggro timer mechanic is broken in it's entirety, largely for reasons listed above.
If you're going to steal from someone, you're going to do two things:
1. Show up in a ninja ship to rob a missioner, who is going to be running PvE and not tackle. There's **** all they can do about that, therefore it is not a legitimate game mechanic. Any PvP mechanic that is non-interactive is not a mechanic at all; they steal your stuff, you watch them steal your stuff. You can't kill them; the second you start locking them they will run or log.
2. Show up to can-flip a miner. This is incontrovertible proof that the mechanic is a total failure, as based on my own experience:
I have been in several operations where a full-fledged fleet of experienced PvP players, including frigates, destroyers, cruisers, BCs, and BSs, ALL running tackle and insta-lock, were guarding a group of miners.
What does it take to thwart that?
One frigate that you can buy for $20k.
Warp into long range, bookmark a can, warp away, warp back, can-flip, log.
The **** we had to pull to keep our client's ore safe from single players flying slashers was ludicrous. When we didn't have an orca, we had to fly ten different cans, constantly swapping stuff in between so the one they bookmarked wouldn't have the same things in it when they came back to flip it. We had to have our frigates constantly bump them to keep them off align from their safe spots. We had to have passive locks from a half-dozen ships already set up, and even then, flipping and warping/logging takes less time than the lag between a target turning red and the game registering your command to activate a scrambler on a target you've already locked.
Then, if they're anything like most pirates, they'll come back in an alt with a BS to collect their loot, and if you've tried to grab the stuff back from the flipped can, you'll all be red to them but the opposite will not be true. They get to lock and fire first, meaning they get a full-blown BS alpha on the target of their choice. We have to keep ourselves in a different corp and alliance from the people we're escorting just so they don't blow up all the squishy mining ships in retaliation for us daring to take back our own can. And God Forbid they have 1/3 the pilots we are putting into the op; if they all come in with BSs running PvP fits, they can alpha half our fleet into oblivion before we're even allowed to shoot back. And since we can't fly exclusively BSs--since we have to deal with can-flipping ninja flips and they don't--they'll win even if our side has twice the skill and is expending four times the resources.
I did the math. Escorts lose huge amounts of money for the miners unless they've got an Orca and several hulks; otherwise they're better off just running back and forth with Scythes and such.
The system does not work.
Personally, I advocate the Law of Metagaming Karma: When one person metagames, their enemy is allowed to metagame the same way. An example in this case would be this: When you aggress, everyone on your account aggresses. (Isn't avoiding aggress the specific reason people switch to alts under such circumstances?)
In addition, if a player steals stuff that is already stolen, they get a global criminal flag, meaning *anyone* can shoot them. After all, chances are they're stealing from one of their own alts/corp in order to *avoid* the in-game consequences. Isn't it appropriate, then, that the consequences be slapped back on them with interest? No, that isn't "part of the game." They have a word for that, and it's called an exploit. And in spite of popular opinion, to my knowledge CCP has never come out and said that metagame exploits were considered a legitimate part of the game mechanics. And if they are, I must ask all of you pirates who have ever complained about someone logging the second they saw you to report for Titanic Hypocrite Reconditioning.
|
|
|
Fille Balle
Dissolution Of Eternity
|
Posted - 2009.08.11 20:06:00 -
[31]
Yup, about 24h sounds about right to me. Of course, it should expire once you kill the SOB. Theft mechanics in this game are completely bonkers IMHO. Stealing in order to obtain the right to shoot the person you stole from  and it's not an exploit .
You know, I had a m8 once (in my younger, wilder days), and he used to go out, get completely ****ed, steal some guys wallet, get caught (deliberately), beat the living cheese out of the poor sod, for "accusing" him of stealing. Nice guy really, as long you knew him. Theft mechanics in eve totally remind me of him.
Anyways, eve is about risk, reward, consequences, yada yada... so 24h is perfectly reasonable. If you succeed in ganking some n00b, you ruin his day, if he has half a brain (or friends with the aforementioned), you've ruined your own day. Now that, sounds more like eve. An eye for an eye yada yada...
|
Rawbin Hood
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
|
Posted - 2009.08.11 20:30:00 -
[32]
i shall cross link this post aswell, as i see it to be related to Linkage
◄Brutor►
The Movement Because the human race can do better as a whole (despite these forums, they don't count) |
Khalia Nestune
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
|
Posted - 2009.08.11 21:20:00 -
[33]
Delicious, delicious tears. This thread totally makes my day.
And yes, confirming that we will flip your **** and send in our out-of-corp Orca to take it.
And not a damn thing you can do. 
|
Venkul Mul
Gallente
|
Posted - 2009.08.11 21:34:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Robert Caldera
yes, for player loot you're right, not for NPC, stealing their radios does not make them yours. A theft on a criminal is still theft.
He is operating on a limited letter of marque against recognized enemies of the state/corporation.
As in RL that give the right to seize all teh cargo from the enemy ships.
|
Barlic
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
|
Posted - 2009.08.11 21:38:00 -
[35]
Please sir, take my advice.
If this happens, notify the person whom is stealing the loot of your intention to come back and shoot at them.
|
Aegamaeous
|
Posted - 2009.08.11 21:54:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Aegamaeous on 11/08/2009 21:55:55
I don't want to spend the time quoting and making the post look pretty. So I'll assume most of you have average reading comprehension and can keep up.
1.) Timer for can thieves/flippers (NPC loot can that you have rights to is just a limited jetcan afterall) - If you can't point them in your Mission Ship because you don't have a point... Fit a damned point and quit whining. This entire argument(bigger than this thread) can be solved by you sacrificing 1 sacred slot.
If you were to argue, I can fit a point, but I won't be pvp fit: Then either have a buddy with you to loot/salvage as you go, or get an alt to fly with your main. Alternatively, a corp mate that is PVP fit and setup to tackle small ships would work.
Tertiary option: Shoot the wrecks/cans. Lose/Lose for the both of you though.
2.) Miners mining into jetcans -- Whoever it is out there that is can flipping these amateurs is doing it wrong. Skill up and/or grow a pair, and suicide gank their mining ship. If you have enough time, shoot the jetcan full of ore as well.
Remember, miners aren't people. They are imaginary video-game characters that are most likely alt-characters for other imaginary video-game characters.
3.) Don't whine about a game mechanic if it can work, if only in certain scenarios. 90% of the complaints about the current system are because some fail-fit refuses to fit a point, or doesn't want to skill up.
Not enough isk, patience, or common damn sense to play the rules in your favor... I better declare personal war on the system!
|
Zavulon Sukkot
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
|
Posted - 2009.08.12 20:05:00 -
[37]
Confirming that I can run to L4s just fine in a PVP fit ship. It's not that hard folks.
EVE is a pewy game. Get your pew where you can, bonus points if someone brings the pew to you. Ninjas SOP is pretty obvious, and if you tearbears actually wanted to DO something about it, and not just cry all day, you would adjust accordingly.
That said, I have 17 million. Can I help?
NATI. |
|
|
| |
|
| Pages: 1 2 :: [one page] |