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[hurf] senates in space, aka how not to govern your terrible alliance

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The Mittani Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.11 18:29:00 - [1] http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/72504 shorter column this week, because if 800 words is good enough for paul krugman and the nyt i don't feel obliged to bash out 1500-2000 itt we discuss types of alliance governance structures, which ones fail, and which ones succeed Sins of a Solar Spymaster: my ~fair and balanced~ column TheMittani @ Twitter
Butter Dog Gallente The Littlest Hobos Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.08.11 18:30:00 - [2] Edited by: Butter Dog on 11/08/2009 18:35:47 800 words? i might read it this time before posting a :fakecomment: okay, read it: AAA C more likely to fold under pressure than Goonswarm shocker! I'll certainly be holding the front page ---------- AKA 'Bitter Dog' Failing at everything he does in EvE since '05
Privavarian Gallente Black Fury	Posted - 2009.08.11 18:30:00 - [3] There is more????! ---- CCP is required by law to inform you that the person you're chatting with is a convicted child sex offender. Please dont give out any personal information to this person.
Aegis Osiris Gallente Failure Avoidance Insurance Limited	Posted - 2009.08.11 20:13:00 - [4] shrug pretty obvious. I've seen similar discussions in eve for years, and all pointed the same way as this article; democracy and internet spaceships mix badly. 'nuff said. I like violet more then pink.
Elno Wildclaw Gallente Altruism. Avarice.	Posted - 2009.08.11 20:45:00 - [5] There's just two things i'd like to point out. 1) there are some hybrid-style leaderships, such as a dictatorship-style leadership with a kind of parliament-style group of corp CEOs that bring issues up with the alliance's king (for lack of a shorter term) and to whom the king defers decisions that he quite frankly doesn't give a **** about. They function relatively well, and they do provide a good solid chain of command in the case of an enemy attack, but i would assume that an issue The Mittani pointed out a few articles ago of people identifying themselves with the corp rather than the alliance can cause problems if the alliance goes through extended hardships like a costly war, power struggles between the corps for the favor of the king, etc. 2) There are other reasons than corp ceos used to absolute power that cause democracies to fall. Oftentimes, even in alliances who have lasted long enough for the CEOs to become used to voting and not always getting their way, power struggles crop up as CEOs gang up on those they don't like, causing a lot of infighting, even when there are enemies at the door, though it really comes to light once those enemies are driven off by stronger allies and the alliance in question is given the chance to focus inward to find new enemies. I'm sure The Mittani's spies have more than enough examples of backstabbing and backroom dealing that went on during these kinds of power struggles. A soft word turneth away wrath. While its back is turned, shoot it in the head.
Lunas Whisper Minmatar The Centurions Eternus Imperium Alliance	Posted - 2009.08.11 21:03:00 - [6] Originally by: Elno Wildclaw There's just two things i'd like to point out. 1) there are some hybrid-style leaderships, such as a dictatorship-style leadership with a kind of parliament-style group of corp CEOs that bring issues up with the alliance's king (for lack of a shorter term) and to whom the king defers decisions that he quite frankly doesn't give a **** about. They function relatively well, and they do provide a good solid chain of command in the case of an enemy attack, but i would assume that an issue The Mittani pointed out a few articles ago of people identifying themselves with the corp rather than the alliance can cause problems if the alliance goes through extended hardships like a costly war, power struggles between the corps for the favor of the king, etc. 2) There are other reasons than corp ceos used to absolute power that cause democracies to fall. Oftentimes, even in alliances who have lasted long enough for the CEOs to become used to voting and not always getting their way, power struggles crop up as CEOs gang up on those they don't like, causing a lot of infighting, even when there are enemies at the door, though it really comes to light once those enemies are driven off by stronger allies and the alliance in question is given the chance to focus inward to find new enemies. I'm sure The Mittani's spies have more than enough examples of backstabbing and backroom dealing that went on during these kinds of power struggles. This. Pure democracy is a pain in the arse. However so is a dictatorship. One you never get anything done and in the other the leaders is prone to burn out real quick. United we stand, divided we fall.
Master Mnemosyne Gallente Hybrid Stigmata EVESpace	Posted - 2009.08.11 21:21:00 - [7] Edited by: Master Mnemosyne on 11/08/2009 21:21:36 I hope you get paid for this.* *Because if you don't you're one sad little internet spaceship celebrity.
The Mittani Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.11 21:22:00 - [8] Originally by: Master Mnemosyne I hope you get paid for this.* *Because if you don't you're one sad little internet spaceship celebrity. i do, its pretty chill no way i'd crap out one of these things every week if i didn't get cash moneys for it~~ Sins of a Solar Spymaster: my ~fair and balanced~ column TheMittani @ Twitter
Master Mnemosyne Gallente Hybrid Stigmata EVESpace	Posted - 2009.08.11 21:25:00 - [9] Originally by: The Mittani Originally by: Master Mnemosyne I hope you get paid for this.* *Because if you don't you're one sad little internet spaceship celebrity. i do, its pretty chill no way i'd crap out one of these things every week if i didn't get cash moneys for it~~ ah thank goodness. I'd hate to see such obvious talent wasted so horribly.
The Mittani Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.11 21:28:00 - [10] wasting talent for money is the first thing you learn either as a prostitute or a lawyer Sins of a Solar Spymaster: my ~fair and balanced~ column TheMittani @ Twitter
Master Mnemosyne Gallente Hybrid Stigmata EVESpace	Posted - 2009.08.11 21:40:00 - [11] Originally by: The Mittani wasting talent for money is the first thing you learn either as a prostitute or a lawyer So, which one did you start with?
The Mittani Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.11 21:41:00 - [12] there's a difference? Sins of a Solar Spymaster: my ~fair and balanced~ column TheMittani @ Twitter
Shinma Apollo Caldari 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.08.11 21:45:00 - [13] Originally by: The Mittani wasting talent for money is the first thing you learn either as a prostitute or a lawyer Unsurprisingly mittens is the type of jerk who has never heard of the phrase pro bono
Master Mnemosyne Gallente Hybrid Stigmata EVESpace	Posted - 2009.08.11 21:45:00 - [14] Originally by: The Mittani there's a difference? Both involve **ing someones **, you make a valid point.
Fat Ducker Amarr Lucky Hydra Corp	Posted - 2009.08.11 21:49:00 - [15] Originally by: The Mittani Originally by: Master Mnemosyne I hope you get paid for this.* Because if you don't you're one sad little internet spaceship celebrity. i do, its pretty chill no way i'd crap out one of these things every week if i didn't get cash moneys for it~~ Hmm, the less charitable might suspect that in the prospect of you losing your column, your vanity might be willing to reverse the nature of that financial transaction. I, however, am perfectly willing to accept this statement at face value. Originally by:* The Mittani wasting talent for money is the first thing you learn either as a prostitute or a lawyer Alternate title for this thread "Confessions of a Solar Rent-Boy"?
The Mittani Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.11 21:52:00 - [16] ~sins of a solar sexpot~ heh Sins of a Solar Spymaster: my ~fair and balanced~ column TheMittani @ Twitter
Master Mnemosyne Gallente Hybrid Stigmata EVESpace	Posted - 2009.08.11 21:54:00 - [17] Originally by: The Mittani ~sins of a solar sexpot~ heh I bet there would be quite an audience among the Jade Constantines of this game.
SquadBroken Amarr Helljumpers Double Dutch Rudders	Posted - 2009.08.11 21:56:00 - [18] Originally by: The Mittani there's a difference?
Mistress Suffering Amarr Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2009.08.11 22:45:00 - [19] We're an anarco-sydicalist commune. We take it in turns to be a sort of executive officer for the week...
Willington Gallente Evoke. Ev0ke	Posted - 2009.08.11 23:11:00 - [20] Mittani getting really deep and philosophic ITT? Got your Halberg-Rassey yet?
qwijJibow Caldari The Unpodable Supermen Cult of War	Posted - 2009.08.11 23:14:00 - [21] Originally by: Shinma Apollo Originally by: The Mittani wasting talent for money is the first thing you learn either as a prostitute or a lawyer Unsurprisingly mittens is the type of jerk who has never heard of the phrase pro bono Apparently not... But from what i heard in jita your mom has
Privavarian Gallente Black Fury Novus Auctorita	Posted - 2009.08.11 23:42:00 - [22] Originally by: qwijJibow Originally by: Shinma Apollo Originally by: The Mittani wasting talent for money is the first thing you learn either as a prostitute or a lawyer Unsurprisingly mittens is the type of jerk who has never heard of the phrase pro bono Apparently not... But from what i heard in jita your mom has Ahh, a ''your mom'' comeback, let me make one. atleast his mom diddn't end up in a ditch after being slashed and sexually humilliated by big black brutor men. (ingame, ofcourse.) ---- CCP is required by law to inform you that the person you're chatting with is a convicted child sex offender. Please dont give out any personal information to this person.
qwijJibow Caldari The Unpodable Supermen Cult of War	Posted - 2009.08.11 23:52:00 - [23] Originally by: Privavarian Originally by: qwijJibow Originally by: Shinma Apollo Originally by: The Mittani wasting talent for money is the first thing you learn either as a prostitute or a lawyer Unsurprisingly mittens is the type of jerk who has never heard of the phrase pro bono Apparently not... But from what i heard in jita your mom has Ahh, a ''your mom'' comeback, let me make one. atleast his mom diddn't end up in a ditch after being slashed and sexually humilliated by big black brutor men. (ingame, ofcourse.) Hey that big brutor is my dad
Privavarian Gallente Black Fury Novus Auctorita	Posted - 2009.08.11 23:56:00 - [24] Nice, you have multiple fathers. ---- CCP is required by law to inform you that the person you're chatting with is a convicted child sex offender. Please dont give out any personal information to this person.
Kybernis Caldari Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.08.12 01:01:00 - [25] Originally by: The Mittani there's a difference? different hours of business.
Apostrophe Man Amarr Lyran Procurement	Posted - 2009.08.12 02:00:00 - [26] The Dictator style works well, as long as it's focused around one strong corp. The one you have to watch for is when it's focused around a single person. Cult-of-personality dictatorships don't seem to work. See: Fallen Souls under Mitch or Atlas under Bobby.
Gautan Virdamot Gallente Nebula Rasa Vanguard Nebula Rasa	Posted - 2009.08.12 03:46:00 - [27] The Mittani works under the delusion that everyone plays EVE to be in the biggest persistent blob around. I'd much rather join an alliance where I had a prayer at a say sometime in the future than becoming someones pawn. Which is dare I say why not that many people are in these alliances. Everyone knows what's easiest and has the most chance of success, I don't think you found something new here. I seriously doubt it will affect what alliances people join in the future either. What I would like to see is you analyzing the player, how and if the contending 0.0 alliances can and would want to approach them for recruitment and how they're funneled into 0.0. As is now the way in as I see it is a corporation of gankers forming in lowsec, killing all, showcasing impressive k/d ratio to alliance and are made trial members. Did anyone fraps it?
Elno Wildclaw Gallente Altruism. Avarice.	Posted - 2009.08.12 06:39:00 - [28] Originally by: Gautan Virdamot I'd much rather join an alliance where I had a prayer at a say sometime in the future than becoming someones pawn. Which is dare I say why not that many people are in these alliances. See, Gautan, another reason that democracies don't work, is because they give people a say that don't really deserve a say. Not that they're horrible at the game, though that is often the case, but more because it gives a voice to people that are just freaking idiots. This happens in real life too, but countries tend to not failcascade as quickly as Eve alliances do. A soft word turneth away wrath. While its back is turned, shoot it in the head.
Privavarian Gallente Black Fury Novus Auctorita	Posted - 2009.08.12 06:53:00 - [29] Originally by: Gautan Virdamot The Mittani works under the delusion that everyone plays EVE to be in the biggest persistent blob around. I'd much rather join an alliance where I had a prayer at a say sometime in the future than becoming someones pawn. Which is dare I say why not that many people are in these alliances. Everyone knows what's easiest and has the most chance of success, I don't think you found something new here. I seriously doubt it will affect what alliances people join in the future either. What I would like to see is you analyzing the player, how and if the contending 0.0 alliances can and would want to approach them for recruitment and how they're funneled into 0.0. As is now the way in as I see it is a corporation of gankers forming in lowsec, killing all, showcasing impressive k/d ratio to alliance and are made trial members. Forget it, aint gonna happen. and if it does, it will fail. When an alliance gets bigger than 10 people you really don't want democracy. No really, you don't. ---- CCP is required by law to inform you that the person you're chatting with is a convicted child sex offender. Please dont give out any personal information to this person.
Proxay Gallente Fallen Angel's Blade.	Posted - 2009.08.12 08:21:00 - [30] +1 for the Dictatorship with input from others. If it's quiet, and we're in no rush, I defer judgments to others, allowing people to have an input in what's going on. As soon as it's war-time, or we need something done quickly, I take over and make a whole bunch of **** happen. I guess it's still under dictatorship category. We love everyone.

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