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How do PVP pilots make money for their corporation??

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Sinister Plot	Posted - 2009.08.13 15:00:00 - [1] First off Big time Respect and Props to PVP pilots as they defend the corporation and its assets from assault by would be takers... My question is simply one of basic operations. Miners mine, haulers haul, etc.. How do PVP's ers bring isk to your corp or do they at all? Are they simply the chosen gladiators who by defending the corp do their part? Of is it reasonable to say that all pilots in the corporation wear multiple hats - some do such as myself - I'll manufacture, mine etc.. while I like to PVP as well. Can experienced players present some options on how people who like ONLY to PVP benefit the corporation outside of the obvious protection role they play? Thanks for enahncing my views. Much respect.
Seraph Castillon Gallente	Posted - 2009.08.13 15:27:00 - [2] Well, combat specialized players can rat, run missions or do exploration. Making a living purely by PvP'ing is something that is very hard to do. You would have to be damn near immortal and have huge kill:death ratio's to keep paying for your ships with the loot dropped from your kills. The protecting the assets of the corporation thingy is something that only comes in play in 0.0, where there actually are assets that need protecting. And even then PvP'ers are only securing the income of the corporation/alliance. Not directly making money for themselves. So in short: combat focused pilots make money by doing stuff they are aided at by their PvP skills. Not by PvP itself. This is where EVE is kind of broken in my opinion. Exeptions are: suicide ganking, randsomming, taking down POS'es and selling the structures and mercenary services. Most of these things don't mix well with the industrial part of your corporation.
Sky Grunthor Minmatar The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc. Balance of Judgment	Posted - 2009.08.13 15:52:00 - [3] Why be so limited to be only a combat pilot? I think your self limiting yourself in your viewpoint. If your a miner, put some skills into having some minimal combat capability. If your a combat pilot, put some skills into isk making capability. Most who are not terribly old do this by using alts for different roles. Thus a pure combat pilot will have an industrial alt, a scout alt, a hauler alt etc... Thankfully in EVE you can be all of these things and don't have to be only one thing. ------------------------------------------------- Search: Sky Grunthor
Sinister Plot	Posted - 2009.08.13 16:07:00 - [4] Edited by: Sinister Plot on 13/08/2009 16:07:58 Thanks for the thoughtful responses - let me clarify my question. How does the pvp contribute to the corporate wealth growing outside of merely protecting the corps assets/fighting for the corporation. This is not about the PVP pilot but how the corp is benefitted income-wise with PVP. Missions/mining etc.. notwithstanding. I mean in the sole case of PVP -- just PVP. It sounds as though PVP in itself doesnt really bring isk to the corporation. So corporations outfit PVP pilots and their ships solely for defensive/agressive purposes. Sounds like a corp And this is about how it benefits the corporation - needs to have a strong industrial side in itself so it can support the PVP defensive/agressive purposes. Outside of defense/offense - PVP alone doesnt seem bring any income into the corp. Thanks for the discussion - trying to figure things out!
Loco Eve	Posted - 2009.08.13 16:22:00 - [5] have a good kill to loss ratio. getting lucky with some officer drops never jurts either.
Soporo Caldari	Posted - 2009.08.13 16:56:00 - [6] They pay for themselves x10 when some jackass corp decs you and starts pwning all your bears and n00bs.
Sky Grunthor Minmatar The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc. Balance of Judgment	Posted - 2009.08.13 17:02:00 - [7] I can only speak to my own corp/alliance as to this issue. We have a standing policy. All PVP loot goes to the corp/alliance. That loot is then distributed to the "free to grab" hangar, auctioned off internally, or sold publicly depending on the item type. So PVP loot will either feed the coffers or mitigate the costs of providing for free modules and ammo. When officer or faction loot drops it can sometimes fetch a pretty price. Also, pvp drives industry. There is nothing else that really does this en-mass the way that pvp does. How does it do it? replacements. Who do you generally make your money off of? in the end, EVE is only about pvp, nothing else. Everything that is not pvp related eventually is used in PVP or for PVP in one form or another. Its the isk sink that provide balance to all the mineral, item and isk faucets that float around the game. ------------------------------------------------- Search: Sky Grunthor
Yelan Zhou Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.08.13 17:09:00 - [8] Edited by: Yelan Zhou on 13/08/2009 17:09:19 PvP is not an ISK sink, infact it produces ISK via insurance. Its an item sink.
Sky Grunthor Minmatar The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc. Balance of Judgment	Posted - 2009.08.13 17:14:00 - [9] Originally by: Yelan Zhou Edited by: Yelan Zhou on 13/08/2009 17:09:19 PvP is not an ISK sink, infact it produces ISK via insurance. Its an item sink. Your technically correct. However the end effect is still Isk value is lost so to call it an Isk sink is only to gloss over the specific connections back to the isk, not to misrepresent what is actually occurring. Pilots see the loss of a ship and items AS an isk sink because value (as determined by isk) was lost to the player by either destruction or transfer of items of value. ------------------------------------------------- Search: Sky Grunthor
Kel Nissa	Posted - 2009.08.13 17:22:00 - [10] Just to confuse you: selfish Miner: mines for himself - no isks for the corp self-dependend PVPler: loses ships and flies some missions to reimburse himself which leads to corp isks because of the tax Unrealistic? I seen plenty of selfish miners And personally im one of the self dependend players.
Yelan Zhou Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.08.13 17:29:00 - [11] Those parasitic miners are the woes of every corp.The apex are so called mining corps wich try to turn everything they see into a hulk. Thousands of inocent asteroids, geting chewed slowly to death by those evil entities and their head demon Chribba, are crying each day unoticed in their pain. The only people who try to fight this madness are some noble pirates and the charity can flipper socity.
Sky Grunthor Minmatar The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc. Balance of Judgment	Posted - 2009.08.13 17:33:00 - [12] Edited by: Sky Grunthor on 13/08/2009 17:33:43 Originally by: Yelan Zhou Edited by: Yelan Zhou on 13/08/2009 17:30:22 Those parasitic miners are the woes of every corp.The apex are so called mining corps wich try to turn everything they see into a hulk. Thousands of inocent asteroids, geting chewed slowly to death by those evil entities and their head demon Chribba, are crying each day unoticed in their pain. The only people who try to fight this madness are some noble pirates and the charity can flipper society. IGS is that way --> http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=channel&channelID=3520 ------------------------------------------------- Search: Sky Grunthor
Yelan Zhou Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.08.13 17:37:00 - [13] Edited by: Yelan Zhou on 13/08/2009 17:37:49 Well if you think that was RP then you realy need someone to explain it for you. If you say PvP is an ISK sink or a perceived ISK sink (wich is correct but pointless) then I suggest reading the market forum. If you dont get sarcasm, well it makes some things easier I guess.
Sky Grunthor Minmatar The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc. Balance of Judgment	Posted - 2009.08.13 17:41:00 - [14] I was merely returning humor with humor. sometimes I fail in that regard. ------------------------------------------------- Search: Sky Grunthor
Yelan Zhou Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.08.13 17:48:00 - [15] If your comment was not meant to offend me then I apologize for my snippy comments. To the Op: There are exeptions but most fulltime/active PvPers are doing missions, ratting or are hobby miners/industrialists/traders. Doing that themselves or via alts.
Marko Riva Adamant Inc.	Posted - 2009.08.13 18:16:00 - [16] Asset accumulation is only half the job, security and logistics is the other part and way more 'demanding' than the accumulation bit. IRL people get paid to secure a transaction, item or whatnot, they also get paid to move or handle it. If I'm putting in MY time and MY cash to defend someone ELSE's interest like (moon) miners they better make sure it's worth my while. A good group has people who work together well, each with their own specialisation but while the miners/producers make the money the pvpers mostly tend to lose cash. Unless this gets balanced you end up with all assets and no security. Which means you'll end up in wars and lose your assets or home, any group who fails to feed/maintain a healthy PVP core gets exactly what it deserves. It's the whole "If you want peace, prepare for war" thing.
Seraph Castillon Gallente	Posted - 2009.08.13 19:52:00 - [17] Edited by: Seraph Castillon on 13/08/2009 19:54:43 Originally by: Sinister Plot How does the pvp contribute to the corporate wealth growing outside of merely protecting the corps assets/fighting for the corporation. Stand alone PvP does not make money ... Originally by: Sinister Plot This is not about the PVP pilot but how the corp is benefitted income-wise with PVP. Same as above. Originally by: Sinister Plot It sounds as though PVP in itself doesnt really bring isk to the corporation. No, it doesn't. (Appart from loot from the kills). How would it? Real armed conflict or wars don't bring in money either. They cost money. They're value, payout, is in the resources, influence or territory they gain you. War also makes industry bloom. Originally by: Sinister Plot So corporations outfit PVP pilots and their ships solely for defensive/agressive purposes. Sounds like a corp And this is about how it benefits the corporation - needs to have a strong industrial side in itself so it can support the PVP defensive/agressive purposes. This is an ideal that is often far fom reality in EVE. Corps don't outfit their PvP'er that often. PvP'ers get their own ships. And thus they have to take part of the industrial side or get money in other ways. Originally by: Sinister Plot Outside of defense/offense - PVP alone doesnt seem bring any income into the corp. What is PvP more than the above? You either defend yourself from an attack or you attack someone/something because you think it will benefit you or because you feel like it ...
Mire Stoude The Undesirables	Posted - 2009.08.13 21:24:00 - [18] Besides the regular direct ways (ratting, market warfare, missions, etc), they have a very nice indirect pay off for your corporation. If your corp has alot of compitent PvPers that join ops, it makes your corp more desirable to 0.0 alliances. Which puts your corps miners and industrialists in safe 0.0 to work their magic and make even more isk.
Cpt Branko The Scope	Posted - 2009.08.13 21:46:00 - [19] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 13/08/2009 21:47:08 Originally by: Seraph Castillon Well, combat specialized players can rat, run missions or do exploration. Making a living purely by PvP'ing is something that is very hard to do. You would have to be damn near immortal and have huge kill:death ratio's to keep paying for your ships with the loot dropped from your kills. It's called ransoming and not flying 11ty billion ISK ships Although that's really piracy, not PVP for the sake of holding territory and such. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Arthello Pilots Of Honour Aeternus.	Posted - 2009.08.13 22:04:00 - [20] Interesting debate on a meta-level. Why does an industrial corporation have a PvP-section? Because it's an insurance. Insurances never pays unless something bad happens. It's rather simple really. If industrial corps/alliances feel this insurance is a waste of ISK's they should get rid of it. Thing is a lot of people play EVE to blow up stuff - myself included. No corp/alliance wants the reputation they are easy kills, trust me! Low-life s****like myself will travel far and wide to kill you.
Grut Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.08.13 22:19:00 - [21] Most top line pvp corp will have hard core industry ppl normally as high as director level + a load of minions. These guys will run corp POS BPOs etc and generally work the corps assets to make arseloads of isk and sort out the corp logistics. This just about the most important job in big corps, they'll have a fair say in strategy & be able to call in corp ops when needed. I remember 50 people mining veldspar in deep 0.0 for 4 hours ... the corp needed trit. BS are provided free to corp members normally on a scheme & t2 provided at a Big discount, you can normally pickup anything you need from the corp hangers. Almost all the pvp guys in a good corp will have access to mining/agent running alts and be able to make a fair amount of isk per hour however that takes time, fine when things are quiet but when your running ops 24/7 it takes alot of people out of the fight. Thats when the indy guys kick in, they keep sticking people back in ships with minimal turnaround. In short off the top pvpers fund themselves through alts but at the top its not indy guys out for themselves, their completely intergrated into the corp and provide the might to keep the corps fleets running. Its one of the things that sets eve apart from over games.... you need massive infrastructure in place to keep the big corps running. Kinsy > deadman you there? Kinsy > are either of us in pods, becase we dont know... Mostly harmless [ 2005.12.09 19:22:50 ] (notify) You have started trying to warp scramble the Dreadnought
Joe Starbreaker The Fighting Republicans	Posted - 2009.08.13 22:19:00 - [22] Originally by: Sinister Plot So corporations outfit PVP pilots and their ships solely for defensive/agressive purposes. PVP is fun. Some corporations may outfit PVP pilots and hold PVP ops because it's fun. It may help attract and retain members. Sometimes you get war-decked, too. = the GOP is recruiting =
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2009.08.13 22:27:00 - [23] Lets put it this way, if you are a combat pilot for your corp, and the corp doesnt reimburse (at least partially) your losses in wartimes then you should find a better corp. Imo.
King Rothgar Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.08.14 04:47:00 - [24] As a low sec pirate in a low sec pirate corp, I of course make most of my isk from pvp. I do not make isk for the corp, the corp uses no isk except about 2M isk a month to keep an office open for recruiting and that's easy enough to cover with a 10% tax. At times there are special operations which require a POS or a war dec or whatever, in those cases those who wish to participate all pitch in. In regards to turning a profit off of pvp, it's very difficult. The break even point where you neither gain nor lose isk is about 25 to 1 overall. Get up above 30 to 1 and you will be in good financial shape. This is assuming you keep to t1 hulls with t2 mods and think twice before rigging your ships (I only rigs BS's and t2 cruisers currently). The kills in my stated stats above include everything from day old characters in t1 frigates to capitals. It also assumes you have at least some success at ransoming. A ransom on a BC is comparable to killing about 4 t2 fitted BC's and looting them. Obviously the type of pvp I'm doing is not warfare, it's opportunistic in nature and basically glorified can flipping (ship flipping?). Not to say I won't melt your face in a fleet fight, it's just that doing so isn't profitable. -----------------------------------------------------
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.08.14 08:47:00 - [25] Quote: How does the pvp contribute to the corporate wealth growing outside of merely protecting the corps assets/fighting for the corporation. This is not about the PVP pilot but how the corp is benefitted income-wise with PVP Leave the canned box mentality, EvE is about creativity. Even if you can't tax PvP pilots they can be very well accounted in the corp financial values. We had a set of low sec systems around our "base" in our control, people doing hours long L4 mission ops in marauders and hours long mining ops in hulks. All that income was only possible because of PvP pilots insta-killing whoever tried to enter those systems. They were not direct ISK sources but were ISK source enablers. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Commoner Caldari The Tuskers	Posted - 2009.08.14 11:19:00 - [26] I agree with Rothgar, it's very difficult making ALL your isk from PvP'ing as it would require a godly k/d ratio. Our corp has a small corporation tax, and the occasional rat kills in belts more than covers the cost of our offices, which is all thats required. Many corps also have sister-corps with dedicated logistics for bringing in the correct equipment as those activities require a higher security status to enter highsec.
Max Tux	Posted - 2009.08.14 11:39:00 - [27] Pvp makes money- brought a vexor and tech 2 fitted it for about 10 mill, in a day had 80 mill in loot from other ships! on all seriousness though - losing a tech 2 ship does hurt the wallet enough that u should need to do some missioning to catch up which does contribute to corp
Dodgy Past Amarr Lollipops for Rancors	Posted - 2009.08.14 14:18:00 - [28] Originally by: Mire Stoude Besides the regular direct ways (ratting, market warfare, missions, etc), they have a very nice indirect pay off for your corporation. If your corp has alot of compitent PvPers that join ops, it makes your corp more desirable to 0.0 alliances. Which puts your corps miners and industrialists in safe 0.0 to work their magic and make even more isk. Also having ongoing PvP and a growing rep will attract more players who may well also add their alts to the corp or any more carebear associated corps. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cpt Branko The Scope	Posted - 2009.08.14 14:36:00 - [29] Originally by: Commoner I agree with Rothgar, it's very difficult making ALL your isk from PvP'ing as it would require a godly k/d ratio. Tbh, it doesn't require a godly k/d - it does require flying reasonably cheap, and ransoming. For instance, take a T2 fit Hurricane - it's going to have a loss cost, together with cheap rigs, of ~40M at most. This means to cover the cost you need to either kill about 7-10 T2 fit BCs / cruisers, or ransom one BC (can be a noob with crap loot) and kill 3-4 T2 fit ships. Ransom two, and you've already probably made a profit. Ransoming is really the key to the whole business being profitable (good loot from gatecamps helps if you're sitting on a good route). For cheaper ships, just one ransom may be enough to cover the loss cost, or even make a profit. The whole thing is that money from piracy is typically trickling slowly with the occasional big win, so financial buffer is good to have so you're OK if you're having a bad streak. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Hiroshima Jita	Posted - 2009.08.15 00:57:00 - [30] You are completely welcome to bring a large industrial corp with no pvp pilots to within 10 jumps of our home systems. Send me an eve mail and we can find an appropriate station system in iether lowsec or npc 0.0. We will apreciate having you nearby.
Mr Reason	Posted - 2009.08.15 01:08:00 - [31] Industrialists in 0.0 going all "so what have you done for us lately" on their PVPers, there's a good laugh.
StainLessStealRat Divine Retribution Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2009.08.15 05:07:00 - [32] Edited by: StainLessStealRat on 15/08/2009 05:13:44 We (PvPers) make it possible for our alliance to hold space & moons thus allowing the alliance to get the the moon income. (90% of our income is moon goo) And also gain sov 4 allowing the construction of super caps like titans/moms. (good profit not awsome) Without PvPers we would have no hope of owning space or moons yet alone the moons in surronding regions. On the whole PvPers cost their corp money (me loves free ships) and dont make it,but we make passive income possible and non passive income safer and offer enough of a deterant to keep things this way. Was going to say impossible to hold space without PvPers but then looked at MH On a side note the fall of a most 0.0 alliance is usually triggered by their carebears or their PvPers turning carebear.
Titan Pilot Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.08.15 11:30:00 - [33] by looting their carbear corpmates
Eldern Minderhost	Posted - 2009.08.15 13:27:00 - [34] I make all my isk from pvping... it doesn't even require being that good at it to make money. Probe out a missioner in lowsec, ransom, repeat.
Acalin Gallente Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.08.15 23:01:00 - [35] they PROTECT your ass VS pirats/WT's/anything that will hold u back making your money while the real pilots die.
fmercury NibbleTek	Posted - 2009.08.16 07:57:00 - [36] Suckin' ****.

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