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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.06.23 03:14:00 -
[1]
I believe it's time for CCP to end this. No discussions of who's right or wrong. No discussions of whether or not they're exploiting. Just a show of hands from everyone that want CCP to provide a clear, complete and decisive statement on the entire situation in Mara/Passari.
Is establishing a blockade at a stargate within normal gameplay, regardless of whatever ingame and in character response it may provoke from members of the support staff?
Are any of the activities taking place during those blockades officially considered exploits? And which ones, specifically?
I find that CCP is doing the entire playerbase a great disservice the longer this goes without a clear, official and decisive comment. As things currently stand, nobody on any side of these arguements know exactly where the line is drawn or even if the line exists anymore. And that has become the root of the arguements, the flaming and everything else bad being seen on these forums. The situation is deteriorating daily without such an answer
I think it's time everyone on all sides of this arguement to put aside their own beliefs of who is right and who is wrong. It's time to put aside what we think should or should not be done. It's now time we show CCP we're serious about this situation and ask the questions that needs to be asked:
"What is the official stance? Where is the line?"
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Maarek Steele
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Posted - 2003.06.23 03:17:00 -
[2]
AMEN
Finally, some common sense on these boards.
If they cheated or used exploits, ban them. If they didn't, fine let the players handle it(Yes i know you never start a sentence with a preposition).
-=Maarek Steele=-
Have gun, will travel. |
Molly
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Posted - 2003.06.23 03:23:00 -
[3]
Hi,
I second that. Make a final statement and we can get rid of some discussions here.
Bye...
---
"Molly > funny thing is, if they warn me for attacking in 1.0, why does a GM wish me luck doing so?
Jash Illian > perverse sense of humor?
Molly > lol
Jash Illian > honestly tho, because he prolly doesn't know bships" |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.06.23 04:45:00 -
[4]
Hrm...115 views and only 2 people have anything to say.
I guess we now know why CCP hasn't said anything. They know people are more interested in arguing than actually getting a final answer
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Damon Vile
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Posted - 2003.06.23 04:49:00 -
[5]
If they say it is an explot ppl will *****, if they say it's not ppl with *****.If they don't say anything ....ppl *****.
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Tabius
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Posted - 2003.06.23 04:49:00 -
[6]
I also would like a definate reply....
An answer is really important... right now, it just seems like there's no one at the helm.
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Alexander Drake
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Posted - 2003.06.23 05:09:00 -
[7]
And if they say nothing people not only ***** more, they do it less intelligently and louder (and of course all claim to be the voice of god, since they lack anything of substance in their arguments).
-=-------------------------------------------=-
"Violence is not the answer, it is the question. YES is the answer."
::CEO/Founder:: -=Draconis Heavy Industries=- |
Darkannis
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Posted - 2003.06.23 06:01:00 -
[8]
The "Official Stance" was stolen about 2 weeks ago.
Attempts to recover it have been hampered by the placing of a bounty on it (after it podded its own playerbase by accident and gained a -10.0 negative sec-rating instantly)
It is now thought to be hiding safely in a high-security station.
The rumour that another "Official Stance" killed it last week in order to gain its own bounty back was strongly denied by an "Official Spokesperson". (Who, for security reasons, has now gone on holiday to France for 3 years and can only be contacted via IRC between 0501 GMT and 0503 GMT each Thursday morning, if its a full moon.)
In other news CCP have firmly denied that the title "Communnity Manager" in any way, shape, or form, implies an obligation to communicate with the community... particularly in any official capacity.
Also a communal "impotence" meeting is to be held for the CCP and Polaris teams.
Finally - a wake will be held next week to honour the fifth consecutive week that the Caldari Empire has been dead. The ceremony will include the dancing on its grave by elite representatives of the player population and the members of CCP who play them.
One commentator was quoted as saying "Caldari Empire? Never heard of it. Sure you saying it right?"
(Unoficially, of course)
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Molly
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Posted - 2003.06.23 06:04:00 -
[9]
Hi,
rofl. Nice one :-). And so true...
Bye...
---
"Molly > funny thing is, if they warn me for attacking in 1.0, why does a GM wish me luck doing so?
Jash Illian > perverse sense of humor?
Molly > lol
Jash Illian > honestly tho, because he prolly doesn't know bships" |
The Wretch
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Posted - 2003.06.23 06:06:00 -
[10]
The fact that CCP has not said anything pretty much says the situation in Mara is okay and part of the game.
Players need to take care of the situation.
The Wretch
Cyberdyne Systems CEO
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Molly
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Posted - 2003.06.23 06:09:00 -
[11]
Hi,
by the way: we can enforce an answer. If we do not get one, we create lag celebrations somewhere in 0.4 space in each empire by our own and pod kill everyone incoming.
Then they have to deal with it.
Bye...
---
"Molly > funny thing is, if they warn me for attacking in 1.0, why does a GM wish me luck doing so?
Jash Illian > perverse sense of humor?
Molly > lol
Jash Illian > honestly tho, because he prolly doesn't know bships" |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.06.23 06:13:00 -
[12]
<< The fact that CCP has not said anything pretty much says the situation in Mara is okay and part of the game.
Players need to take care of the situation.
The Wretch
Cyberdyne Systems CEO >>
Logically, I'd make that assumption as well. But this situation has gone past logical, past ludicrious and jumped straight to plaid.
The playerbase NEEDS to hear a clear, complete and decisive comment from CCP before things will even remotely begin to settle down.
Once that happens, yes people will ***** about whatever decision they make. But that would be better than the arguements and counterarguements which all boil down to everyone's opinion backed up by personal desire.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Vapor
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Posted - 2003.06.23 07:32:00 -
[13]
I think the fact that everyone IS arguing and requesting an OFFICIAL answer should more or less indicate to CCP that they need to give one. Regardless of whether the situation IS or IS NOT and exploit or cheat, having players bicker amongst themselves is not productive and although NOT CCP's fault, it could be remedied and put to rest very easily.
There are corps willing to take arms against the blockade, but no-one is going to organise serious action until everything is crystal clear.
Are anti-blockade corps going to be dis-advantaged by an exploit or not ? Is it an exploit ? Is the situation fair ? Will battles be fought fairly or with an imbalance ?
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Merell
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Posted - 2003.06.23 07:54:00 -
[14]
My thoughts on this matter:
The blockade in Mara/Passari is ok game wise, this was even how the game was supposed to work. You are supposed to be able to play a pirate and there are very limited areas that allows this. Camping a gate is the only sane option for someone wanting to play a pirate.
But as it happens the victims just didn't like beening robbed and podded. Discontent grew and grew for a couple of days when CCP realized they had to do something to please the hundreds of players that complained loudly. Then came the disasterous SpecOps action. But it did cool off the fire a bit. But after that point gasoline has been thrown on this fire until the something happened that shouldn't have happened.
A GM supposedly took it into his own hands to move all m0o out to one system. Even if it this wasn't in the hands of a single rouge GM it was still the wrong thing to do. And it really didn't solve the situation one bit. And as far as I know the m0o are already back in Mara/Passari.
But it did one thing, CCP realized that this is an important time for EVE. IMO this is when EVE might prosper or wither. All depending on how CCP decide to handle this situation. For one this might be a gameplay change that will forever change how the game works. Maybe EVE will be thrown in to Carebear land. What ever happens CCP shouldn't take lightly on the situation. And they aren't.
Pann responded quite quickly saying that an Official response was in the making. And that was a couple of days ago now.
What ever happens it will be guide for the future, an example on how we are allowed to play this game and not.
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Spike Spiegal
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Posted - 2003.06.23 10:20:00 -
[15]
Im fine with m0o blocking and stuff. Players are able to kick their asses. But Im not fine with them using the 100+ cargo containers dump exploit. Its stated clearly that you cannot use exploits and that it is cheating, so why wont ccp do anything about that?
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Tristan
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Posted - 2003.06.23 10:25:00 -
[16]
i agree, CCP brining some clarity into teh situation would be good, rather than just adding to more speculation about the subject. maybe then these boards might have a m0o free period, until they figure out a new way to annoy lots of people with minimal effort.
It would suggest CCP think the blockade is out of order or they wouldnt send battleships in, or teleport characters etc. then again if thats so why dont they do something more than skirt around the issue and bring a conclusion to the situation once and for all.
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Game
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Posted - 2003.06.23 10:36:00 -
[17]
ignore them and they will go away. geez, how dumb can everyone be?
imagine you were THE most talked about thing in Eve, would you stop? Hell no!! Give the guys a break and applaud them for their achievements. If you can't cope with it, avoid the areas they are known to be.... would you happily walk into an area of high crime in New York?
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Ruulex DeMors
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Posted - 2003.06.23 10:40:00 -
[18]
This whole situation revolves around that fact that the Cargo Containers don't disappear fast enough (at least in this instance). Could it be possible for a loading sphere (or whatever it's called) to notice that there is too large of a number of containers just sitting there? Then once it recognizes this it takes action, ie destroy the containers that have been there the longest until the data to send upstream is reduced enough for reasonable load times.
But you'd have to set a minimum time limit before containers could be destroyed, just incase there was a huge battle and large numbers of ships were destroyed in a short period of time. Only problem is...if they are purposely dropping containers with 1 unit of ammo or whatever, They could still cause sufficient lag to have an advantage.
-------------------------------------
Interm-CEO for EVE Marshals
http://www.EVEMarshals.com |
Game
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Posted - 2003.06.23 10:45:00 -
[19]
What would be nice is if an exploding CC triggered others to explode - i.e. a cc with 1km will destroy its neighbour. Then someone could just fly in, pop a smart bomb and watch the fireworks.
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Killgorde
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Posted - 2003.06.23 11:50:00 -
[20]
Two issues:
1) Nothing wrong with blockades - quite reasonable to expect them and I for one didnt sign up for a care bear server. Until other corporations with a vested interest in that area summon the courage and determination (spine???) to do something about the situation it's fair play for Moo to blockade. In saying that, salutations to Cornexant for being a corporation with the right attitude. I know its sad that Moo resort to using lame tactics, but we all know every game has those individuals of low integrity who stoop to using any trick no matter how despicable to "win" - its usually an age thing or bad parenting, but something we have to live with.
However...
2) Anyone who would like to argue that enforcing lag to gain an unfair advantage due to a weakness in the game/server engine is not an exploit needs his head examining. Compare this to using speed hacks in CS etc. Any difference? Slowing down your opponent is no different from speeding up your own in my book. One thing that utterly dismays me is that CCP assured everyone way back in beta exploits would not be tolerated, and now they have neither the inclination or willpower to do anything about a serious one that is costing them money through cancelled subscriptions from disillusioned people.
PS: I'm sure a couple of GM's would find it quite beneficial honing their gunnery skills by getting target practise on cannisters during peak time until CCP realise that this exploit needs to be addressed.
Killgorde
CEO - Cutting Edge Incorporated
"I thought I saw a light at the end of the tunnel but it turned out to be some bastard with a torch in one hand and a ****load more work for me in the other" |
Merell
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Posted - 2003.06.23 12:09:00 -
[21]
I'm still not convinced that m0o is exploiting, maybe they do, but that is up to CCP/GM's to decide, and since no severe action (ban or playerwhipe) has been taken I asume that m0o isn't exploiting.
What they are dooing as far as I know is shoot the pirates that spawn at the gate and ofcourse players passing by, and then it's easy to get 30-80 containers over a couple of hours.
The main problem here is that when you warp in to a place the people already there can see and shoot you before you have a chance to respond. That is also a problem with NPC pirates, not only with PC pirates. And this is the thing that has to be addressed/fixed. Not m0o.
If anything should happen m0o should be compensated for their effort to bring unbalanced weapons combos and action bubble load times up to the surface in a way that forces CCP to actually (hopefully) fix the problem. I say everyone ingame send the m0o CEO 100isk as a thank you bonus from the players. ;-)
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Fester Addams
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Posted - 2003.06.23 12:24:00 -
[22]
The way I see it some GM's some in the CCP want a solution, like so many have stated the sutuation is causing ALOT of complaints.
The central problem is not gate camping, its not the blockade its dumpster lagging.
So what to do, repetedly CCP have claimed that we the players should sort it out by ourselves, well it has been tried, a fleet went in scampered the m0o at great personal losses but not desiering gate camping themselves they left... back to square 1.
As long as the campers have the patience to go back the issue will never be resolved.
In any case all methods of removing for example the m0o from their blockade will only move the problem, naturaly some other corps will want to copy m0o and camp the gate just like them on a more or less frequent basis so even wiping m0o's chars will not remove the problem.
The problem is in the game mecanics, by placing 100s or items at the reentry points you can lag the game for the person arriving, this is as far as I can tell bugabuse/systemabuse but the real problem does not lie with the people who use the bug, they are lets face it pathetic as they must abuse known weaknesses to be able to succede, the problem is game mecanics.
As far as I have been able to gather (not having access to sourcecode) when you jump to a location the suroundings load (DUH!), naturaly they need to load BUT the question is in wich order things happen.
Now it seems there is no check that compares what I have access to and what the server sends to other players who are in my vicinity.
So in short, the people waiting at the reentry point see me comming before the location has loaded for me.
This is a moronic way to do it, why should you send out information in all directions as fast as you can?
The sensible way is for the server to first make sure I have arrived, I have loaded the location I am moving to and then send the information that I have arrived.
As the ship has a few seconds of being irresponsive after a jump at wich time I can give no orders it would not place the advantage any more in my corner then intended, if the jumper gets too much of an edge then a simple tewak of the irresponsive period can simply be extended a sec or two.
If the system was changed to work this way then
1: we would not have thousands of cargo containers in multiple systems that lag down the server
2: dumping hundreds of containers at a reentrypoint together with mines and what not would work as intended, ie make it hard to target things cluttered with all the junk.
On a completely different trail of thought based on the same problem, How is it possible to stargate into the cluttered area? to me it feels very strange to travel at a speed that transports a ship from one solar system to another in a matter of seconds and still be capable of reentering within a few thousand meters of the intended target and in a man made asteroid field to boot.
scatter stargating players more, the bigger the area you have to guard the harder it will become and if the reentry is cluttered above lag level, move the reentry so it is clear of the lag!
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Jay Gatsby
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Posted - 2003.06.23 12:37:00 -
[23]
M0o's actions aren't the fundamental problem here. Murder, piracy, theft: these are all valid ways to play the game.
What IS the problem is that currently there are no ways for a player (or group of players) to compete on an equal footing against other players who behave in this way. Why?
1. Server-side Lag. You can't win a fight if you're already dead by the time you gain control of your ship.
2. Stations. You can't hunt down a target if all they need to do is flee to the nearest station and hide out, with no way of evicting them.
The solutions are simple:
Fix the lag. If the lag is fixed, the exploits will stop. If the server-side lag CANNOT be fixed, CCP needs to look at squashing exploiters and introducing viable workarounds. Many good ideas have been posted on these fora over the last weeks; I won't repeat them.
Fix the stations. When Player-owned stations are up and running, I'm pretty certain that 90% of them will NOT allow low-sec or bountied players to dock, regardless of the security level of the system that they are in. Why should stations run by law-abiding NPC corps have any other policy, if for no other reason than the fact that aiding and abetting known criminals is itself a crime.
Most importantly, and for the thousandth time on these boards, CCP need to tell the WHOLE playerbase what they are doing.
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Sparc Ambertin
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Posted - 2003.06.23 14:15:00 -
[24]
>I'm still not convinced that m0o is exploiting, >maybe they do, but that is up to CCP/GM's to >decide, and since no severe action (ban or >playerwhipe) has been taken I asume that m0o >isn't exploiting.
They are exploiting!
Saw the 'ContainerNet' several times!
I have a fast computer and a good internet connection, but dropping out of warp in an damaged pod is no fun. :(
Hopefully they get bored with this someday and behave like real, profit oriented pirates....
--
"Don't laugh at the frigate, for he will laugh at you when his friends show up."
- Mercenary Frigates. |
Ywev
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Posted - 2003.06.23 14:22:00 -
[25]
Ok, find a gate with nothing around it and warp into it. time load up time. Call 10 of your friends to goto the gate and sit there, warp into it, and time it again. The lag is created by your computer to load up the ship animations, and ship art. 1 can, is loaded and duplicated, a small white square hardly takes any load. However 8 different looking ships can take some time to load up. So, now that your faced with either your computer sucks or your 56k modem ain't cuttin it anymore, time to upgrade one of the two.
Pod ya later..
Ywev
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Kimbal
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Posted - 2003.06.23 14:29:00 -
[26]
He maybe right.
I did warp to M0o quite a few times and i was only killed when i chose to stay and see...
When i didn't "want" to to be killed i always could warp before get targeted.
But then again...i can't be sure without more testing. |
Norask
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Posted - 2003.06.23 14:33:00 -
[27]
Hey cow, did mom buy you an uber computer? Damn, lucky lucky girl you. /claps |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.06.23 15:54:00 -
[28]
Everyone:
The point here isn't to continue the arguements we've all had in other threads.
It's to show CCP we're serious about wanting an answer. We can argue about the answer after we get one. ;)
But until then, how about we stick to asking for the answer?
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Jay Gatsby
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Posted - 2003.06.23 16:34:00 -
[29]
Ywev, you're wrong.
All the ship models / textures / animations are client-side, i.e stored on your hard drive. It certainly does NOT take 10 seconds or more for any half-decent PC to render these things - if it did, every 3D game of the last few years would be unplayable.
It DOES take significant time for the server to tell the client where it needs to place those fancy models on the screen. And - guess what - if there are more objects in that area of space, it takes longer for the server to send all the information to the client that the client requires to display a true picture of the player's surroundings.
Cue one source of lag, and an exploit.
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