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Iron Hoe
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Posted - 2009.08.19 20:22:00 -
[1]
This is a whine post.
After resubbing after a few months I collected most of my values and wanted to move them elsewehere in hi sec.
My Iteron 5 was destroyed by a single Russian guy in a (almost fully insurable) T1 Raven in hi sec. I lost the result of many weeks work (around 1 Bill) a few hours after resubscribing. Everything was in conteainers and destroyed, so no loot even.
It's about 3 gamecards or that way around 50 Euros.
Was a mistake to use autopilot for a few jumps with an Iteron5 with that values in it even in hi sec? Yes it was.
Is it reasonable to lose 50 Euros worth of stuff by a mistake like this? I really don't think so.
If I had bought combat ships for that money went to pvp and lost those ships that would be still the toughest price to pvp in any MMO but I can say that can still be reasonable.
But this?
Most people I tell about the game mechanics of eve - buying to lose ships and lose implants and even skills - are shocked and are not very keen to try it.
I can live with pvp ship losses but hi sec losees like this, pod and skill losses I find really unreasonable. This game would be much better without those.
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Kalintos Tyl
Minmatar V O O D O O
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Posted - 2009.08.19 20:25:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Kalintos Tyl on 19/08/2009 20:25:17 1. Fit SHIELD Extenders 2. Dont autopilot 3. Use T2 transport
combination of 1/2/3 means no one ever will gank you 60D GTC - shattared link |
Bibbleibble
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Posted - 2009.08.19 20:39:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Kalintos Tyl Edited by: Kalintos Tyl on 19/08/2009 20:25:17 1. Fit SHIELD Extenders 2. Dont autopilot 3. Use T2 transports
combination of 1/2/3 means no one ever will gank you
4. Do it in several journeys.
Whilst it doesn't reduce the chance of being ganked, it does reduce the sting. ________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (Now with added summary!) |
Joe Starbreaker
The Fighting Republicans
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Posted - 2009.08.19 20:53:00 -
[4]
Your items were not worth 50 euros. They were pixels on a computer screen representing data bits owned by CCP. They were worthless. Let's get that straight.
Furthermore, you are looking only at the effect this had on you. Game designers look at the effect on everyone: the pirate, who had fun and profit; the victim, who learned a lesson about survival; other players, who enjoy living in a surprising and dangerous virtual galaxy. From a game design standpoint, piracy is a major part of what makes EVE fun, both for those who commit it and those who do their best to escape it.
= the GOP is recruiting = |
Iron Hoe
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Posted - 2009.08.19 21:25:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Joe Starbreaker Your items were not worth 50 euros. They were pixels on a computer screen representing data bits owned by CCP. They were worthless. Let's get that straight.
Once they are in the game it's true. However since you can legally bu PLEX and sell on the game market RL money does translate into game money. A 15 Euro plex sells for around 300 mill isk on the market, that means you can't make 50 Euros from 1 Bill, but if you decide to legally convert Euros into ISK you will get around 1B ISK for 50 Euros. So that is a legal exchange rate.
Originally by: Joe Starbreaker Furthermore, you are looking only at the effect this had on you. Game designers look at the effect on everyone: the pirate, who had fun and profit; the victim, who learned a lesson about survival
Everyone makes mistakes in RL and so in the game. Especially after a few months of break when you are like "WTF spaceships hehe" and then all your stuff goes boom.
Originally by: Joe Starbreaker From a game design standpoint, piracy is a major part of what makes EVE fun, both for those who commit it and those who do their best to escape it.
Every MMO has idiot proof zones. I think it would be quite reasonable to make hi sec a place where only war targets can engage each other.
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Iron Hoe
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Posted - 2009.08.19 21:26:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Kalintos Tyl Edited by: Kalintos Tyl on 19/08/2009 20:25:17 1. Fit SHIELD Extenders 2. Dont autopilot 3. Use T2 transport
combination of 1/2/3 means no one ever will gank you
Absolutely. If I knew this before? Yes.
If I think it was a reasonable price for a lesson in a game? Absolutely not.
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Joe Starbreaker
The Fighting Republicans
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Posted - 2009.08.19 21:31:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Iron Hoe Every MMO has idiot proof zones. I think it would be quite reasonable to make hi sec a place where only war targets can engage each other.
Are you calling yourself an idiot? Don't be so harsh. It's a learning process, we all went through it...
= the GOP is recruiting = |
Valandril
Caldari Ex-Mortis
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Posted - 2009.08.19 21:35:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Valandril on 19/08/2009 21:36:13
Originally by: Iron Hoe
Originally by: Joe Starbreaker Your items were not worth 50 euros. They were pixels on a computer screen representing data bits owned by CCP. They were worthless. Let's get that straight.
Once they are in the game it's true. However since you can legally bu PLEX and sell on the game market RL money does translate into game money. A 15 Euro plex sells for around 300 mill isk on the market, that means you can't make 50 Euros from 1 Bill, but if you decide to legally convert Euros into ISK you will get around 1B ISK for 50 Euros. So that is a legal exchange rate.
There is no "legal exchange rate", any PLEX/GTC/ISK belongs to CCP not you they merely allow you to use it. Any usd you send to CCP, from technical sense - you send for access to theyr server. Nothing more. So you cannot talk about legal exchange at all as you CANNOT legaly exchange usd to isk or isk to usd.
And yes, everyone makes mistakes, and everyone pays for them. Cry me a river then build a bridge and get over it. Do not discuss moderation in your signature. Zymurgist |
Iron Hoe
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Posted - 2009.08.19 21:43:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Iron Hoe on 19/08/2009 21:44:22
Originally by: Valandril Edited by: Valandril on 19/08/2009 21:36:13 There is no "legal exchange rate", any PLEX/GTC/ISK belongs to CCP not you they merely allow you to use it. Any usd you send to CCP, from technical sense - you send for access to theyr server. Nothing more. So you cannot talk about legal exchange at all as you CANNOT legaly exchange usd to isk or isk to usd.
And yes, everyone makes mistakes, and everyone pays for them. Cry me a river then build a bridge and get over it.
There are few other MMOS where you can so easily and legally convert RL money to game money. It truelly doesn't work the other way around.
With the introduction of PLEX they are actually selling the currency of their game for RL money tbh.
It can be used for updating the subscribtion from within the game OR it can be sold on the in game market for game money. This is a very well known and CCP approved way of buying ISK for RL money.
So I really don't understand if it can be exchanged why you couldn't talk about a one-way exchange rate which exists whether you like it or not.
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Valandril
Caldari Ex-Mortis
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Posted - 2009.08.19 21:46:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Iron Hoe
Originally by: Valandril Edited by: Valandril on 19/08/2009 21:36:13 There is no "legal exchange rate", any PLEX/GTC/ISK belongs to CCP not you they merely allow you to use it. Any usd you send to CCP, from technical sense - you send for access to theyr server. Nothing more. So you cannot talk about legal exchange at all as you CANNOT legaly exchange usd to isk or isk to usd.
And yes, everyone makes mistakes, and everyone pays for them. Cry me a river then build a bridge and get over it.
There are few other MMOS where you can so easily and legally convert RL money to game money. It truelly doesn't work the other way around.
This is not "few other MMOS"
Originally by: Iron Hoe With the introduction of PLEX they are actually selling the currency of their game for RL money tbh.
So do you get ISK or ingame item ? Because i'm confused and last time i've checked you are getting access to ingame item.
Originally by: Iron Hoe It can be used for updating the subscribtion from within the game OR it can be sold on the in game market for game money. This is a very well known and CCP approved way of buying ISK for RL money.
Same case, you are NOT buying isk with RL money, you are buying access to some ingame item which you sell for isk.
Originally by: Iron Hoe So I really don't understand if it can be exchanged why you couldn't talk about an exchange rate which exists whether you like it or not.
It does not exist. as wrote above. Do not discuss moderation in your signature. Zymurgist |
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Mad Maulkin
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Posted - 2009.08.19 21:46:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Someone
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Iron Hoe
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Posted - 2009.08.19 21:47:00 -
[12]
I almost forgot you could sell timecodes before PLEX using the account interface so it's been like that even before.
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Iron Hoe
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Posted - 2009.08.19 21:52:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Valandril So do you get ISK or ingame item ? Because i'm confused and last time i've checked you are getting access to ingame item.
If let's say I couldn't officially buy North Korean Won for Euros but I could buy a cow there for 50 Euros for the only purpose of selling it for 1B Won wouldn't that define an exchange rate?
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Mad Maulkin
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Posted - 2009.08.19 21:52:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Iron Hoe
There are few other MMOS where you can so easily and legally convert RL money to game money. It truelly doesn't work the other way around.
With the introduction of PLEX they are actually selling the currency of their game for RL money tbh.
um to be fair, they are not selling the currency to you, you sell an item to a player and he pays you the isk! its a huge difference, in the end, someone payed real money for the days that are added to the account, its just not yours... its a very different system...
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Guy Fitzgerald
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Posted - 2009.08.19 21:53:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Iron Hoe
Originally by: Valandril So do you get ISK or ingame item ? Because i'm confused and last time i've checked you are getting access to ingame item.
If let's say I couldn't officially buy North Korean Won for Euros but I could buy a cow there for 50 Euros for the only purpose of selling it for 1B Won wouldn't that define an exchange rate?
No, it would define an price for cows...
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Valandril
Caldari Ex-Mortis
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Posted - 2009.08.19 21:53:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Iron Hoe
Originally by: Valandril So do you get ISK or ingame item ? Because i'm confused and last time i've checked you are getting access to ingame item.
If let's say I couldn't officially buy North Korean Won for Euros but I could buy a cow there for 50 Euros for the only purpose of selling it for 1B Won wouldn't that define an exchange rate?
Logic is not your strongest side, isn't it ? I give you 5 minutes to fix your post Do not discuss moderation in your signature. Zymurgist |
Iron Hoe
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Posted - 2009.08.19 21:54:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Guy Fitzgerald
No, it would define an price for cows...
... in both currencies, which would would define ... guess what
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Iron Hoe
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Posted - 2009.08.19 21:56:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Valandril
Originally by: Iron Hoe
Originally by: Valandril So do you get ISK or ingame item ? Because i'm confused and last time i've checked you are getting access to ingame item.
If let's say I couldn't officially buy North Korean Won for Euros but I could buy a cow there for 50 Euros for the only purpose of selling it for 1B Won wouldn't that define an exchange rate?
Logic is not your strongest side, isn't it ? I give you 5 minutes to fix your post
I'm sorry if if you're North Korean, I can change it to some other currency if you like.
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Valandril
Caldari Ex-Mortis
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Posted - 2009.08.19 21:58:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Valandril on 19/08/2009 22:00:30
Originally by: Iron Hoe
Originally by: Valandril
Originally by: Iron Hoe
Originally by: Valandril So do you get ISK or ingame item ? Because i'm confused and last time i've checked you are getting access to ingame item.
If let's say I couldn't officially buy North Korean Won for Euros but I could buy a cow there for 50 Euros for the only purpose of selling it for 1B Won wouldn't that define an exchange rate?
Logic is not your strongest side, isn't it ? I give you 5 minutes to fix your post
I'm sorry if if you're North Korean, I can change it to some other currency if you like.
Since you still don't understand where you've failed in quoted post, i'm calling you a clueless idiot who must have at least one parent from us and a. Actualy scratch that, this would be offending us and a citizens. Heck, i've even wrote in post ealier exacly why you "logic" is flawed. Do not discuss moderation in your signature. Zymurgist |
Guy Fitzgerald
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Posted - 2009.08.19 22:03:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Valandril you still don't understand where you've failed in quoted post, i'm calling you a clueless idiot who must have at least one parent from us and a. Actualy scratch that, this would be offending us and a citizens. Heck, i've even wrote in post ealier exacly why you "logic" is flawed.
Strongly supporting this idea/product!
Serious op, its fine to cry a bit, but you know, finnaly all tears have come to an end...
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Iron Hoe
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Posted - 2009.08.19 22:06:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Joe Starbreaker
Originally by: Iron Hoe Every MMO has idiot proof zones. I think it would be quite reasonable to make hi sec a place where only war targets can engage each other.
Are you calling yourself an idiot? Don't be so harsh. It's a learning process, we all went through it...
I play this game for more than 2 years. I have two accounts one is a pure warrior the other one is Carebear that I barely play. I had a lot of fight in low sec and 0.0. If I take a ship into low or null I take it as already lost.
But losing 1B cargo in a transport ship in hi sec by a single guy with almost 0 investment just because I wasn't careful enogh coz it's hi sec I can't get over it tbh.
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Iron Hoe
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Posted - 2009.08.19 22:13:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Valandril Since you still don't understand where you've failed in quoted post, i'm calling you a clueless idiot who must have at least one parent from us and a. Actualy scratch that, this would be offending us and a citizens. Heck, i've even wrote in post ealier exacly why you "logic" is flawed.
I live in Eastern Europe and 50 Euros is 10% of the average monthly wage here.
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Belrend Coregaul
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Posted - 2009.08.19 22:34:00 -
[23]
Hence why my account got cancelled.
I understand Eve. I enjoy Eve. I don't enjoy how CCP let's pirates do whatever the fuk they want to. Pirates are more of a nuisance than an enjoyable feature. Highsec could easily survive without 0.0 or lowsec. EASILY. Wars would still happen, ships would still be lost(mind you not cap ships, but who likes Titans ruining fun fights) and in the end everyone would moan about only one thing being war dec's which is easily avoided through joining an alliance and keeping fighters with you during rough times.
Pirates are trash-talking self-absorbed bigots. 5% of the pirates are not.
We can live without you/them.
To have real life money lost because of game mechanics is nothing short of discouraging to anyone who looks to continue playing this game. "Oh.. you payed $40 to play the game? HAHA denied cause of some ***** in a raven."
Yeah.. real intelligent to argue that it's part of the game. Fuk off, it's real money. Not your stupid azz isk. Don't expect EVE to survive on anything BUT the very dedicated fanboys still screaming that "you don't get eve".
Getting EVE isn't an issue. You die because of *****s or because you mouthed off to the wrong person or perhaps thought AFKing with a small shield in a lvl 4 mission was intellgent. Wow that was sooo hard to understand. But you lose in-game materials that are worthless in the real world. To lose actual money value items is unnacceptable and to allow such a feat is disgraceful as a gaming company.
Go blow it our your azzes you ignorant fools to bash a player losing items of true value. You pitiful pieces of trash are the ones needing to be shot to help with Population inbreeding and world hunger.
Cya round! Was fun trying eve. Not a game for long-term enjoyment but only frustration.
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Mad Maulkin
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Posted - 2009.08.19 22:48:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Mad Maulkin on 19/08/2009 22:53:17
Originally by: Belrend Coregaul ...
Hey, idiot, she did not loose anything worth real money! you cant transport plex around!
She used plex to get isk, and she used isk to buy valuable stuff and she lost the valuable stuff... thats how the game can work at times.. sucks, but thats it...
To say she lost RL money, its not acctually correct, the moment you make it into a plex, its an eve item, so you loose isk currency...
But thats beside the point, noting in the game is worth real money, so you cant loose real money!
Define true value! does a 1 bill item have different worth, since she used plex money to get it? if i mined to get the money, ingame, its ok that i loose it? are you for real?! you cant know much about hwo the mechaincs of eve work...
Be careful about removing the splinter in the eye or your neighboor beore you remove the beam in your own!
Edit: added an exclamation mark!
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Themis Holen
Gallente Inter-Galactic Research Of Knowledge
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Posted - 2009.08.19 22:54:00 -
[25]
I have been playing for about 2 years as well, and I know better than to autopilot a hauler with most/all my possessions anywhere. Well, tbh, I don't use the AP at all (except to plan my route), but that's another point entirely.
It sucks the OP got all his/her possessions destroyed, but, then again, that's the nature of Eve. I remember losing almost all of my pixels about 2 weeks into playing due to a can flipper (and my ignorance of game mechanics); I almost quit entirely. Then, I watched a couple of Eve videos (Eve Never Fades, anyone? ), and it got me right back into the game.
Again, I hate to see someone lose their pixels, but that is what makes Eve unique imo. Also, in closing, the autopilot is the devil! The DEVIL I say!
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Mad Maulkin
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Posted - 2009.08.19 22:56:00 -
[26]
I have seen teh Devil!! he made sleeper space!
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Iron Hoe
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Posted - 2009.08.19 23:31:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Themis Holen I have been playing for about 2 years as well, and I know better than to autopilot a hauler with most/all my possessions anywhere.
I would generally not do this either. But after a few months break it takes some time to get back. I always fly frigs only after resubbing to get back in practice.
So I'm really not saying it wasn't stupid. I just think the price is unreasonably high for such a mistake in hi sec. Ofc taking it to low sec would have been asking fro trouble, but a carebear toon in an NPC corp in high sec...
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Terminus Vindictus
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.08.19 23:57:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Iron Hoe
Every MMO has idiot proof zones. I think it would be quite reasonable to make hi sec a place where only war targets can engage each other.
Every MMO except for EVE, of course. That's kinda the whole point of this game - you're not safe anywhere in the game. Even while you're sitting in station you can still be scammed. Live with it, or leave. This is EVE reality.
Hello, I'm from the Government and I'm here to help. |
Iron Hoe
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Posted - 2009.08.20 00:06:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Mad Maulkin Edited by: Mad Maulkin on 19/08/2009 22:53:17
Originally by: Belrend Coregaul ...
Hey, idiot, she did not loose anything worth real money! you cant transport plex around!
She used plex to get isk, and she used isk to buy valuable stuff and she lost the valuable stuff... thats how the game can work at times.. sucks, but thats it...
To say she lost RL money, its not acctually correct, the moment you make it into a plex, its an eve item, so you loose isk currency...
But thats beside the point, noting in the game is worth real money, so you cant loose real money!
Define true value! does a 1 bill item have different worth, since she used plex money to get it? if i mined to get the money, ingame, its ok that i loose it? are you for real?! you cant know much about hwo the mechaincs of eve work...
Be careful about removing the splinter in the eye or your neighboor beore you remove the beam in your own!
Edit: added an exclamation mark!
Let me try to phrase my view about the connection between RL money and ISK in case of EVE.
The cornerstone of the equasion is the amount of stuff destroyed each day. I don't know the exact number. So I just calculate
I generally see ~40000 ppl online. If the average guy loses 10M/day that's 400Bill/day total. If one third of that gets covered by selling PLEX that's 6500EUR/day. Which is 200k EUR/month. That means around 13000 PLEX/month spent on replacing lost stuff.
In other words that's like having 13000 more subscribers. And where does the ISK come from?
From people who can't afford to pay for their subscribtion(s) and mine/mission etc for the ISK they buy the PLEX on. I would be surpirised if most of them do this for fun.
They pay their subscription with their work they pay ISK for the seller of PLEX. The seller gets the ISK CCP gets the RL money from the seller.
The reason why this doesn't inflate the ingame currency is the insane amount of stuff that gets destroyed for ever, completeley sublimes seize to exist.
I'm not totally against destruction of stuff. It gives it a stake like in a poker game for money. I'm just saying decresing destruction might bring more subscribers.
My suggestion about the three areas which I think are too tough for the average guy: 1. Limit hi sec fighting to wars. 2. Pods and implants couln't be destroyed or could be insured like ships 3. You couldn't lose training points by being pod killed.
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AtheistOfDoom
Amarr The Athiest Syndicate Advocated Destruction
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Posted - 2009.08.20 00:08:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Iron Hoe
My suggestion about the three areas which I think are too tough for the average guy: 1. Limit hi sec fighting to wars. 2. Pods and implants couln't be destroyed or could be insured like ships 3. You couldn't lose training points by being pod killed.
Go play another game. Pew Pew Lazorz!!! |
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