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Jin Entres
Malevolent Intervention
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Posted - 2009.08.25 15:14:00 -
[31]
The system is fine with the exception that repping should incur an aggression timer on docking and jumping whenever the person being repped is agressed -- regardless of who is repping who (meaning regular in-corp RR would carry the same consequences).
That would be more fair in my opinion. ----------------------
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Hanso Sparxx
Deep Penetration Inc.
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Posted - 2009.08.25 15:24:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Cracken shoot them and get conkorded. Until the fire on your they cannot be attacked.
No, you shoot them and they either die, or go away. dumbass. ------------------ Go Deep! |
AnKahn
Caldari The Giant Squid Corp.
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Posted - 2009.08.25 15:43:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Jin Entres The system is fine with the exception that repping should incur an aggression timer on docking and jumping whenever the person being repped is agressed -- regardless of who is repping who (meaning regular in-corp RR would carry the same consequences).
That would be more fair in my opinion.
/signed
Everyone knows this is how it shoud be. Would also cut down on the dual box players who put their active repps in another (alt) ship.
High sec warfare is somewhat unpredictable because you never know what the actual odds are. It's not as simple as counting the non-blues in local. Not sure this game mechanic is supossed to balance out bubbles or something.
It makes no sense to me also that target painting is an aggressive act if noone shoots the painted target.
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Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2009.08.25 19:09:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Jumponme
Good idea because Person C always flies T1 failfitted cruisers and nothing like a Logistic (i heard they are very slow, have a huge signatur and thus easy to hit) or a dominix ...
C/D?
In my opinion: if person C don't is at war with person A, it should be handled like a criminal act, at least "not sanctioned with this yulai-thingie" ...
Flame on!
Edit: Did they fiexed the forums? nice ...
Is Eve some kind of dueling match for you? If you engage a guy with 4 ships is he OBLIGATED to come at you with only 4? If he's being repped shoot the repper.
If the repper docks - great that's 1 minute your target isn't being repped.
Guess what - YOU can bring your own logistics! Its crazy - I know, but complaining that someone is using a ship that your own side could just as easily use is ridiculous.
Low sec/0.0 pilots are used to the other side bringing in reinforcements - time you high sec 'warriors' get used to it too. Either avoid a station with a lot of characters docked where there is a real possibility of them undocking and overwhelming you - or bring your own proper support and stop complaining about a valid tactic.
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Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2009.08.25 19:11:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Dr Fighter if remote repair triggered the docking timer, we wouldnt have these issues.
Half the time the logistics docks because they can, and then just undock 30 seconds later. On larger targets is very hard to pop the station hugging scumbag before his cookie cutting war dec tard freind undocks again.
Now if the RR triggerd the station timer the attackers might actually have a chance to kill the RR guy (like it SHOULD be)
Or you know - you could just kill the guy when his logistics isnt there helping him. If you can't pop a guy in 30 seconds, you don't have enough dps. Keep switching targets. That's how pvp works. The logistics pilot will have a negligible effect if hes constantly docking.
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Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2009.08.25 19:12:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Jaina Proudmoar
- Person C either changes ship or quickly refits for PvP. - You have more 1 hostile entering on the other side.
Welcome to how the rest of Eve has to deal with pvp - there are ALWAYS reinforcements coming - you better have yours coming in faster than the other guy.
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Dors Venabily
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Posted - 2009.08.25 19:45:00 -
[37]
Originally by: NoNah They are flagged, it's not a bad mechanic. Reason it isn't is that there's simply no way around it.
simple fix you as neutral get concorded if you try to repair a WT ship and are not as well in war with the atacking party for interference.
try remote rep rats see what happens
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Kismo
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Posted - 2009.08.25 19:45:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Omarvelous Holy crap there are some terrible pilots whining in this thread.
- Person A has a war with Person B. - Person A attacks Person B. - Person B returns fire. - Neutral Alt Person C reps Person B. - Person C IS A VALID TARGET FOR PERSON A NOW!!!! - Person A - who is not a complaining NOOB - switches primaries and fires on Person C. - Person C docks. - Person A who is not brain dead switches back to original primary - person B.
Also note - person A is free to have his friends rep him with the exact same consequences.
Welcome to pvp folks. You have to change targets once in a while - and you need to be prepared to have your own logistics.
Low sec pirates get the added joy of getting GCC and sentry fire for repping their friendly oulaws. We're used to it - we don't gripe about it - learn from us.
Truth
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Jin Entres
Malevolent Intervention
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Posted - 2009.08.25 19:57:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Omarvelous
Originally by: Dr Fighter if remote repair triggered the docking timer, we wouldnt have these issues.
Half the time the logistics docks because they can, and then just undock 30 seconds later. On larger targets is very hard to pop the station hugging scumbag before his cookie cutting war dec tard freind undocks again.
Now if the RR triggerd the station timer the attackers might actually have a chance to kill the RR guy (like it SHOULD be)
Or you know - you could just kill the guy when his logistics isnt there helping him. If you can't pop a guy in 30 seconds, you don't have enough dps. Keep switching targets. That's how pvp works. The logistics pilot will have a negligible effect if hes constantly docking.
I don't know if you realise how unrealistic that is. An average buffer fitted BS will have in between 150 and 250K EHP and with 1k DPS which is probably on the high side for average fits and skills, it will take from 2+ to over 4 minutes to go through that. That is if tracking conditions are optimal and you can deliver your whole on-paper DPS. So to get to 30 seconds you would need from 5 to 8 people all doing 1k DPS.
And if we're talking smaller than BS ships then the damages dealt will also be lower. Take 400 DPS against a 70K EHP HAC for instance and you're still looking at 3 minutes. And the lower the damage, the more effect a logistics will have. They have very powerful reps that equal thousands of DPS mitigated when applied to decent resistances. A HAC + logistics can tank several battleships.
In any smaller an engagement, logistics will make a difference and getting them down or out of the fight fast is a priority. As long as they can dock without any timer after repping, they will be very difficult to kill. So they can just keep coming back. And being fast and small it is easy to maneuver them to avoid bigger ships so you will need tacklers to force one to stay docked. It may be all well to say that it's your fault for not bringing tacklers but that is not the issue; the issue is the fact that neutral logistics offer great advantage for very low risk. Is it fair to require 3 BS + tackler to counter 1 BS with a logistics?
In short, it's basically the same as falcons used to be: they could be a great force multiplier with very low risk because they could do it from a distance and manage that distance with a cloak. Of course logistics are nowhere near as good as falcons used to be, but the principle is the same: they don't need to commit to a fight in which they can be a tremendous contribution. This simple principle is what is amiss here. This is not to say that logistics shouldn't be very useful when used right or that they should be very vulnerable. It's just that instead of docking games, logistics pilots should have to use their speed, size and range to stay alive. ----------------------
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Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2009.08.25 20:21:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Omarvelous on 25/08/2009 20:21:12
Originally by: Jin Entres
I don't know if you realise how unrealistic that is. An average buffer fitted BS will have in between 150 and 250K EHP and with 1k DPS which is probably on the high side for average fits and skills, it will take from 2+ to over 4 minutes to go through that. That is if tracking conditions are optimal and you can deliver your whole on-paper DPS. So to get to 30 seconds you would need from 5 to 8 people all doing 1k DPS.
And if we're talking smaller than BS ships then the damages dealt will also be lower. Take 400 DPS against a 70K EHP HAC for instance and you're still looking at 3 minutes. And the lower the damage, the more effect a logistics will have. They have very powerful reps that equal thousands of DPS mitigated when applied to decent resistances. A HAC + logistics can tank several battleships.
In any smaller an engagement, logistics will make a difference and getting them down or out of the fight fast is a priority. As long as they can dock without any timer after repping, they will be very difficult to kill. So they can just keep coming back. And being fast and small it is easy to maneuver them to avoid bigger ships so you will need tacklers to force one to stay docked. It may be all well to say that it's your fault for not bringing tacklers but that is not the issue; the issue is the fact that neutral logistics offer great advantage for very low risk. Is it fair to require 3 BS + tackler to counter 1 BS with a logistics?
In short, it's basically the same as falcons used to be: they could be a great force multiplier with very low risk because they could do it from a distance and manage that distance with a cloak. Of course logistics are nowhere near as good as falcons used to be, but the principle is the same: they don't need to commit to a fight in which they can be a tremendous contribution. This simple principle is what is amiss here. This is not to say that logistics shouldn't be very useful when used right or that they should be very vulnerable. It's just that instead of docking games, logistics pilots should have to use their speed, size and range to stay alive.
So you're complaining that you want to attack war targets at a station, and your fleet is so woefully one-dimensional that it can't deal with logistics?!
Here's how I would counter the remote assistance. - ECM. - Firing on it till it docks or dies - Neuting it.
Your 3 BS and tackler should have had an ecm ship, or a neuting ship.
I have 0 sympathy for high sec players complaining about logistics alts - its your fault for flying an incomplete gang. Make him dock or disable him - I don't care if it keeps coming back every 30 seconds, that's essentially a wasted alt.
Notice how low-sec/0.0 pvpers don't complain about this tactic?
A docked/jammed/neuted logistics does 0 repping.
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Lexa Hellfury
Incura
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Posted - 2009.08.25 20:24:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Seishomaru
Originally by: Lexa Hellfury
Originally by: Seishi Maru You can repair a ship netural to you that is fighting with a war dec and the other part cannot fire at you!
You're an idiot.
cared to try at least? You noticed that the guy does not blink, makign hard to perceive him? Notice that if he had repair bots on the war target before the agro this doe snot work? You tried to fire how many times lately? Notice how many times concord BUG out and comes anyway to blow you? Yes because they come a lot of times (at least 1 in 10 times)! You take time to notice that? Theory is different than practice.
I have a Guardian Alt, you're still an idiot.
Originally by: RedSplat The Forum moderation Software known as Mitnal became self aware. CCP had no choice but to shut it down.
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Jin Entres
Malevolent Intervention
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Posted - 2009.08.25 20:59:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Omarvelous
So you're complaining that you want to attack war targets at a station, and your fleet is so woefully one-dimensional that it can't deal with logistics?!
You are only looking at it from the perspective of whoever is fighting against a logistics. That misses the point. Of course there are ways to deal with them as there are ways to deal with anything, and your imaginative solution to bring more people to the fight usually works pretty well for whatever.
Consider instead whether it is a balanced risk vs reward from the logistics pilot's perspective. If the worst case scenario for a logistics is to be forced to dock, that's pretty low risk, right? If they introduced a new ship that could aggress and dock/jump whenever it wanted, would you still be telling me that I'm just stupid for not bringing backup to force it to stay docked?
You also assume that all fights happen between sizable fleets where every role is covered, or at least can be through number of pilots. My fleet is as one-dimensional as it gets: I fly alone in a corp with no one else. I'm not complaining when I run into something I can't deal with. If I bring scissors, I'm prepared to lose to rock. But tell me, what is the counter to docking? Exactly, there isn't one. It's the equivalent of withdrawing your arm when you have a losing hand. If you deaggress and dock, at least you've given the enemy an opportunity to get you and you would be right in faulting them for failing to do so. But it's another thing when you haven't committed to a fight at all and there is nothing the enemy can do (no matter how multidimensional their fleet is) to make you commit while you can make a full contribution to a fight.
To put it as simply as possible:
Risk something to gain something: reasonable Risk nothing to gain something: not kosher
The pessimist in me suspects your reply will only focus on me flying alone instead of my actual argument.. ----------------------
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Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2009.08.25 22:56:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Jin Entres risk vs reward
I get it - no risk to a logistics ship because it can dock.
However you get no reward either as the ship is unable to rep if its not locking anything.
Risk nothing - Gain nothing.
It would be a different story if the rep cycle continued while the logistic ship was docked.
My argument is simple - its silly to complain about this tactic when there are ways to deal with it. Make the alt dock or nullify it. I'm sorry if your solo war machine can't compete at station games.
There is nothing stopping you from using a logistics alt as well. Each race has a logistics ship - there is no uneven advantage.
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Jin Entres
Malevolent Intervention
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Posted - 2009.08.25 23:34:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Jin Entres on 25/08/2009 23:35:46
Quote: However you get no reward either as the ship is unable to rep if its not locking anything.
But it does, and that's the gist of the problem. Its advantage is being able to rep while being able to dock at any time if it is threatened. If it didn't have this ability, it might not have the balls to rep or it might get killed by tacklers which should be the legitimate counter to it. A logistics ship's primary function is to rep and it can do this at full efficiency without risking anything. No other ship can perform its role like this without committing to some extent(except running gang mods at a POS which is frankly just stupid design).
The only way to kill something that can dock is to instagib it or bump it outside docking range (which is impossible on most stations nowadays since their models are so stupidly big, not to mention webs being unable to keep stuff still anymore) and doing that to a moving logistics is not an easy feat.
P.S. You may not realise but it doesn't make a difference whether this happens in hisec, lowsec or 0.0. Nothing prevents docking except aggression timer. You just don't see that many logistics alts in 0.0 since getting them there isn't as easy. ----------------------
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Kismo
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Posted - 2009.08.25 23:45:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Kismo on 25/08/2009 23:45:49 No, the only change to the mechanic I'd be willing to entertain is that remote repping someone should give you an aggression counter to anyone that person is aggressed to. If that's concord, it's concord. If it's a WT, it's a WT. In either case it should mean you can't dock immediately.
And just to be clear, you can dock/undock a 6 transporter basilisk and deliver instant repping with no risk as well. You don't have to wait until the cycle completes and there's pretty well no way to defend against it. That really is reward without risk (albeit the reward is very small!)
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Cracken
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.08.26 03:09:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Cracken on 26/08/2009 03:13:14 Edited by: Cracken on 26/08/2009 03:12:51 Too clarify this person was useing multiple out of corps reppers so um yeah you guys have fun with you theory crafting only problem is your all assuming only a single out of corp repper which 95% maybe the case.
In this instance the person had 3 out of corp reppers which means shockingly enough you attack 1 he docks you attack the next he docks etc.,etc. ad nauseum.
So the war target which should have been dead long ago is still receiving the the repairs from 3 rr domi's with almost no interruption.
The current mechanic is only acceptable if theirs only a single out of corp repper with 3 you get the idea.
also too those who insist on flaming go **** yourself. Because you seem too be good @ it.
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