Today my opinion changed when I read Dev postings stating the rules were intentionally left vague and the actions Hydra and Outbreak took on Sisi aren't against the rules but everyone should be careful just in case.

Now I believe CCP wasn't protecting the spirit of the tournament, rather they were simply not willing to man up and just ban Hydra and Outbreak for last year's actions. CCP deliberately created rules which could be interpreted several different ways by the player base, CCP seemed to ignore requests for clarification from Hydra and Outbreak while reaching out to other Alliances, and then we are told the reason Hydra and Outbreak were banned isn't actually against the rules.

I don't pirate, don't care for drama or tears

if you had read the other posts you would see what i was talking about

They did explain comprehensively, reply to queries politely and issue I think two detailed clarifications.

The whole issue is about timely and appropriate communications to avert anything that might compromise the quality of the tournament. Something the ATX team vowed to do this year with the new rules.

Outbreak and Hydra have shown that they tried to get clarification on what they thought were vague. And after reading those mails I cant see how they were anything short of wanting to be fully co-operative. The ATX team did not act on those to avert anything for whatever reasons they may have had. Then without warning or appropriatley recognised communications between the 3 parties ban them both. Fair enough this sets the bar rather high for further rulings, they mean buisness this time!!

This now brings up the question of why weren't RVB allowed to, in a similar fashion, just be ignored and allowed to fall foul and be removed from the torunament. Why initiate a special dispensation for one group and not another? They would have fallen foul of two rules, Possible colluding and stacking the dec.

PL without a doubt were the Main Alliance of their two entries and fell foul of the stacking the dec rule yet the Main alliance was not removed. As stated in the same rule set which on one hand with one group they want to enforce vigorously and yet with others are so lenient.

PL command alot of respect for what they have achieved in pervious AT's and bring alot of interest to the table and rightfully so. So I have to agree with this special dispensation.

Other teams are still seeking clarifications for fear of the same fete as Hydra/Break. The ATX team have since admitted that the rules were vague on purpose.

It seems you need a super natural ability to communicate with or comprehend the ATX team this year and their "feelings" is what seems to be the main theme in this years rules.

"General consensus" in this case means "a few Hydra/Outbreak alts"?

Cool story bro. Prove it.

"General consensus" in this case means "a few Hydra/Outbreak alts"?

I'm not one for the politics of Eve. I don't pirate, don't care for drama or tears, and I don't normally get involved in the "metagame". I just log in when I'm not deployed and enjoy spending time with friends and flying around doing fun stuff.

Last year I heard about the AT on Eve Radio and I gave it a look. I have to admit I really enjoyed the fights and the theorycraft involved in coming up with team configurations. I was really looking forward to this years competition since I understood more about what would happen and could actually follow the fights.

Then I see a blog post about CCP banning last years winners. Something I can't blame them for doing as the entire tournament last year ended on a bad note with the laughable last match. I read the initial posts about the ban, posts which have now been pulled down, and I thought CCP had a pretty valid reason behind their justification. As I've pointed out in my blog CCP seemed to be protecting the spirit of the tournament while not exactly enforcing the letter of the rules. While somewhat dubious in nature I could understand the logic behind CCP's actions.

Today my opinion changed when I read Dev postings stating the rules were intentionally left vague and the actions Hydra and Outbreak took on Sisi aren't against the rules but everyone should be careful just in case.

Now I believe CCP wasn't protecting the spirit of the tournament, rather they were simply not willing to man up and just ban Hydra and Outbreak for last year's actions. CCP deliberately created rules which could be interpreted several different ways by the player base, CCP seemed to ignore requests for clarification from Hydra and Outbreak while reaching out to other Alliances, and then we are told the reason Hydra and Outbreak were banned isn't actually against the rules.

I have no idea why CCP didn't just HTFU and tell Hydra and Outbreak they were banned because they made a joke out of the final match last year. Simple, concise and no drama. Give participants a warning that every match must be contested or you'll get kicked out of the tournament and not be allowed to enter next year.

Instead we get vague rules, removed posts, insulting replies from both CCP and the players, and in the end the AT feels tainted without a single shot being fired.

In a game that touts itself as rough and tumble, no holds barred, not for the faint of heart, I can't figure out why CCP has seemly gone out of it's way to try and look like a good guy when simply taking the bull by the horns would have avoided all manner of ill feelings.

"General consensus" in this case means "a few Hydra/Outbreak alts"?

Apparently only Hydra and Outbreak were confused The rest of us understand perfectly

This is getting so pathetic.

I'm not one for the politics of Eve. I don't pirate, don't care for drama or tears, and I don't normally get involved in the "metagame". I just log in when I'm not deployed and enjoy spending time with friends and flying around doing fun stuff.

Last year I heard about the AT on Eve Radio and I gave it a look. I have to admit I really enjoyed the fights and the theorycraft involved in coming up with team configurations. I was really looking forward to this years competition since I understood more about what would happen and could actually follow the fights.

Then I see a blog post about CCP banning last years winners. Something I can't blame them for doing as the entire tournament last year ended on a bad note with the laughable last match. I read the initial posts about the ban, posts which have now been pulled down, and I thought CCP had a pretty valid reason behind their justification. As I've pointed out in my blog CCP seemed to be protecting the spirit of the tournament while not exactly enforcing the letter of the rules. While somewhat dubious in nature I could understand the logic behind CCP's actions.

Today my opinion changed when I read Dev postings stating the rules were intentionally left vague and the actions Hydra and Outbreak took on Sisi aren't against the rules but everyone should be careful just in case.

Now I believe CCP wasn't protecting the spirit of the tournament, rather they were simply not willing to man up and just ban Hydra and Outbreak for last year's actions. CCP deliberately created rules which could be interpreted several different ways by the player base, CCP seemed to ignore requests for clarification from Hydra and Outbreak while reaching out to other Alliances, and then we are told the reason Hydra and Outbreak were banned isn't actually against the rules.

I have no idea why CCP didn't just HTFU and tell Hydra and Outbreak they were banned because they made a joke out of the final match last year. Simple, concise and no drama. Give participants a warning that every match must be contested or you'll get kicked out of the tournament and not be allowed to enter next year.

Instead we get vague rules, removed posts, insulting replies from both CCP and the players, and in the end the AT feels tainted without a single shot being fired.

In a game that touts itself as rough and tumble, no holds barred, not for the faint of heart, I can't figure out why CCP has seemly gone out of it's way to try and look like a good guy when simply taking the bull by the horns would have avoided all manner of ill feelings.

This is getting so pathetic.

"General consensus" in this case means "a few Hydra/Outbreak alts"?

This is getting so pathetic.

PL without a doubt were the Main Alliance of their two entries and fell foul of the stacking the dec rule yet the Main alliance was not removed.

Hydra was removed for colluding with Outbreak.

And you fail to understand the difference between colluding on TQ and cooperating to train on testserver.
Last year they followed the rules. We could also have expected them to follow them this year.
But hurt feelings made that point taken out of the equation

Collusion is an agreement between two or more persons, sometimes illegal and therefore secretive, to limit open competition by deceiving, misleading, or defrauding others of their legal rights, or to obtain an objective forbidden by law typically by defrauding or gaining an unfair advantage. It is an agreement among firms to divide the market, set prices, or limit production. It can involve "wage fixing, kickbacks, or misrepresenting the independence of the relationship between the colluding parties". In legal terms, all acts affected by collusion are considered void.

Their attempt to act as a single team on the test server was collusion, they shared intel, fits, tactics, strategies, and yes, they were within the rules last year, however, this year, repeating those same actions resulted in a rules violation because doing what they did last year was against the rules this year.

They didn't train secretivly, they petitioned and were open for dialogue with the AT team about how and why. So the secretive part already get's tossed out of the window.
If CCP had simply communicated and said " Your setup of training would break rules and as such you have the choice, continue and be kicked from the AT or find a way to train against eachother within our rules. (you know, the vague ones which leave enough room to be interprited any way suitable)

They were within the rules last year and the thing with EVE is that people always look howfar rules can be bend to their needs or desires. Same was for Hydra and Outbreak.
This doesn't have to mean they now all of a sudden wanted to break the rules this year. Since there were none broken last year I would assume they didn't want to break rules then so they weren't going to break any this year.

They got dealt a harsher hand than RvB purely based on the fact that last year they did something within the rules what however pissed a lot of people off.
With RvB there was clear communication about how to at the very least get both sides into the AT by "adjusting" the rules.
Same could have been done for Hydra/Outbreak, but CCP decided not to. And the conclusion is that this is soley based on hurt feelings over last year.

If you were going to rob a bank, got the guns, got the get away car, got IN the car and started the engine, would you expect the police to tell you that what you're doing is wrong before you left??

Can you apply your logic to ANY OTHER SPORTING EVENT OR SCENARIO LIKE THAT AT ALL and expect the officials to go out of their way to tell you that something you're doing thats blatantly against the rules is against the rules?

They should have simply known that CCP were mad at them (everybody knew CCP was mad at them) and carried the burden of playing it safe on their own.

I cannot fathom how you expect somebody to hand hold them and make sure they don't break rules that were obviously created specifically because of what they did, they're grown ass men, they're responsible for their own actions.

And even if they knew and were fully aware CCP were mad at them, shouldn't they still be expecting similar treatment as people who CCP weren't mad at?

what in the hell ever gave you the impression that you would or even should be fairly treated?

I'm glad we got to this point.

As long as it's clear to everyone what this is actually about.

It is funny that Grath accuses everyone else of being :mad: when he so gleefully abandons basic principles like fair treatment.

No, why would you ever expect they would? The name of the man that outed the cheating Dev is still to this day banned, you can't even type it out, what in the hell ever gave you the impression that you would or even should be fairly treated?

This may shock you, but you will find in life that some things just aren't fair, even things you pay for, just aren't fair.


Feel free to hold your breath and stomp your feet each time you find one, but in the end none of it will be any more or less fair than it was when you started.

They broke the rules that CCP created for the tournament. tough sh*t. move on.

I'm glad we got to this point.

As long as it's clear to everyone what this is actually about.

This is getting so pathetic.