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Proffessor Pwner
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Posted - 2009.09.01 11:22:00 -
[1]
This is a Debate post highlighting the logical arguments for and against peoples ability to salvage a wreck if it was recently killed by another player.
Post what you think and if it has some logical backing then I'll outline it in the following posts, I've done some looking around a little and have found that its a quite popular subject so I have some starting room.
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Proffessor Pwner
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Posted - 2009.09.01 11:32:00 -
[2]
A wreck has no value therefore it can not be owned by a player
>Salvage gained from a wreck sells for isk, therefore the wreck has value.
>The value must be taken from the wreck so it doesn't have value until that happens.
>A farmers field must be taken care of, therefore the field has no value until the produce is grown? no, the land is valuable because it has Potential Value.
>which brings us to "potential value" and I have yet to see a player in eve not able to salvage, therefore the wreck has potential value to everyone.
But but, a wreck is a wreck how can it be owned.
>Wrecks do not come from out of nowhere, a player must expend ammunition and fight to create a wreck.
>Generally wrecks aren't viewed as property.
>actually, if I were to get into a car accident and total my car, I don't simply get to leave it on the road, and people certainly can't just come up to it and take parts from it now can they?
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Proffessor Pwner
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Posted - 2009.09.01 11:40:00 -
[3]
Salvaging is a mini-profession in eve, if a Mission Runner is able to kill someone for salvaging a wreck belonging to them it will discourage the profession and cease to exist.
the arguments
>Encourage salvagers to fleet with people to salvage their wrecks and force them to get permission to do so without repercussions.
>typically a mission runner doesn't solo missions fast enough to make fleeting with someone to salvage cost effective or good use of a salvagers time.
>Idea for game engine, have a permission to salvage ability for mission runners to give to wondering salvagers who ask.
>obviously no mission runner would give a person permission to salvage their wrecks.
>Make it so a roaming salvager can still salvage a wreck with or without the permission of the mission runner, though if they do it against their will they will be open to attack.
most of these arguments revolved around the wrecks being own able by the person who killed the NPC/Player to create the wreck.
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Evelgrivion
Ignatium.
Rote Kapelle
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Posted - 2009.09.01 11:41:00 -
[4]
CCP said that salvaging wasn't created as a way for mission runners to make more money, and have no intent of making it that way.
I think that argument pretty much trumps all the others.
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2009.09.01 11:42:00 -
[5]
what a tard.
the thread is obsolete because all arguments have been discussed a lot of times.
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Nika Dekaia
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Posted - 2009.09.01 11:44:00 -
[6]
CCP wants salvaging to be a mini-profession. Therefor the salvager has to be able to salvage any wreck he finds at any time. There's nothing to debate. CCP wants it the exact way it is: Linkage
Read some of the other 342455 threads on the topic before littering the forum with another one.
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Howzic
Soulless Armada
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Posted - 2009.09.01 11:46:00 -
[7]
 Originally by: Proffessor Pwner
But but, a wreck is a wreck how can it be owned.
>actually, if I were to get into a car accident and total my car, I don't simply get to leave it on the road, and people certainly can't just come up to it and take parts from it now can they?
By this logic, wouldn't it belong to the poor pirate that you just blew up in your mission? It wouldn't ever be yours or any other players then.
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Proffessor Pwner
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Posted - 2009.09.01 11:48:00 -
[8]
the "Eve is lawless so stop crying that your salvage was taken by someone"
Assuming you believe salvage is own-able.
>If eve were really lawless then one should be able to shoot someone if they steal something valued by them.
>Salvagers are weak ships and can't fight back, as well as usually quite have low HP
>>This would open up another profession, salvager defense, if a salvager and a buddy in a pvp fitted ship roll up on your mission area then the mission runner must decide if they want to risk shooting the salvager and getting killed by their friend creating a bully-ism that would enhance salvaging.
>High security is for the ones who do not like that side of eve, let them keep their sanctuary of having Concorde to protect them from hostilities.
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Proffessor Pwner
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Posted - 2009.09.01 11:51:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Proffessor Pwner on 01/09/2009 11:54:52
**Its the way CCP intended it**
>true
>CCP can be debated with, and there is enough supporters on both sides and viable arguments on both sides.
>CCP said that salvaging wasn't created as a way for mission runners to make more money, and have no intent of making it that way. Evelgrivion
>>If there is enough supporters of something, would CCP not be wise to take council on the mechanic.
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2009.09.01 11:55:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Robert Caldera on 01/09/2009 11:56:31
the devs should begin locking these salvage threads since anything has been discussed 89634569163495 times at least. All the same arguments and all the same counters without any result.
The spam should be locked.
If you dont like the mission and NPC killing rules/mechanics, dont do missions! Easy like that.
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Nika Dekaia
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Posted - 2009.09.01 11:56:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Proffessor Pwner
Assuming you believe salvage is own-able.
Wrecks/salvage in space is not ownable. The salvage is yours when it enters your cargo bay. Not sooner, not later: Linkage (bottom)
You can't shoot someone who takes something that is NOT YOURS.
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Nika Dekaia
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Posted - 2009.09.01 12:03:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Proffessor Pwner
>>If there is enough supporters of something, would CCP not be wise to take council on the mechanic.
CCP is not Blizzard. CCP has a vision of it's game (cold harsh universe) and will not sell out. The'd lose in the long run and they know it.
This is a niche mmo, if you don't like it - go play mainstream fairy stuff.
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Proffessor Pwner
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Posted - 2009.09.01 12:26:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Nika Dekaia
Originally by: Proffessor Pwner
>>If there is enough supporters of something, would CCP not be wise to take council on the mechanic.
CCP is not Blizzard. CCP has a vision of it's game (cold harsh universe) and will not sell out. The'd lose in the long run and they know it.
This is a niche mmo, if you don't like it - go play mainstream fairy stuff.
posts with logical arguments only please!
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Proffessor Pwner
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Posted - 2009.09.01 12:28:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Robert Caldera
Edited by: Robert Caldera on 01/09/2009 11:56:31
the devs should begin locking these salvage threads since anything has been discussed 89634569163495 times at least. All the same arguments and all the same counters without any result.
The spam should be locked.
If you dont like the mission and NPC killing rules/mechanics, dont do missions! Easy like that.
I actually don't mind "salvage ninjas", just come up with logical arguments against them!
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2009.09.01 12:30:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Robert Caldera on 01/09/2009 12:30:58
Originally by: Proffessor Pwner
I actually don't mind "salvage ninjas", just come up with logical arguments against them!
read some threads few pages back in the forum(if you have to go that far at all), salvage is discussed to death, there is no need for another crap-thread like this.
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Proffessor Pwner
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Posted - 2009.09.01 12:50:00 -
[16]
keeps the trolls happy now let them do their flaming plz.
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2009.09.01 12:54:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Robert Caldera on 01/09/2009 12:55:01
tbh such topics deserve nothing but flames and trolling.
Everybody searching for discussion looks in one of the existing threads in the forum, there are more than enough.
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Tiny Tove
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Posted - 2009.09.01 13:01:00 -
[18]
Out of interest, when you say "logical backing" do you mean, "only those who agree with me?"
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Commander Ogir
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Posted - 2009.09.01 13:24:00 -
[19]
I think the whole thing wouldn't be so bad, if we had more reward on the mission. If the mission gives me 200k + 600k Bounty and i earn 5M by salvaging (or not) it hurts! But when I get 5M (or 1M Mission + 4M Bounty) the other 5M would be just nice to have...
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nafiy gnaw
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Posted - 2009.09.01 13:24:00 -
[20]
Edited by: nafiy gnaw on 01/09/2009 13:26:05
Stop beating the dead horse...........please
Logical argument?
1. CCP has decided that the wrecks belongs to no-one and anyone can salvage-them
2. CCP owns the game, created the game and makes laws within the game
3. Therefore, the wrecks in the game belongs to no-one, and anyone can salvage them.
This has been done for.............who knows how many times and I dont really see you offer anything that counters that.
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Hiroshima Jita
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Posted - 2009.09.01 14:15:00 -
[21]
I always thought the point of ninja salvaging was to **** people off enough to shoot at you? You're in a cheap ship and they don't have a point = minimal risk. (Have to loot the wrecks to make it so they can shoot you.)
Then when the mission runner with faction mods and a pve fit has agressed you you go dock up and get in your cheap pvp fit gank battleship.
PROFIT???!?!?
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2009.09.01 14:18:00 -
[22]
this is what happens on aggro within missions:
http://killboard.ev0ke.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=45005
haha I love such kills.
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Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
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Posted - 2009.09.01 16:03:00 -
[23]
I think the real solution is for all the people crying about it to get a clue and understand what salvage really is or means. Here is a definition (Bolded the important bit)
Quote:
in maritime law, the rescue of a ship or its cargo on navigable waters from a peril that, except for the rescuerÆs assistance, would have led to the loss or destruction of the property. Under some jurisdictions, aircraft may also be salved. Except for salvage performed under contract, the rescuerùknown as the salvorùmust act voluntarily without being under any legal duty to do so, apart from the general duty to give assistance to those in peril at sea or to stand by after a collision. So long as the owner or his agent remains on the ship, unwanted offers of salvage may be refused. A derelictùa vessel found entirely deserted or abandoned without hope or intention of recoveryùis, however, fair game for anyone who comes across it. Typical acts of salvage include releasing ships that have run aground or on reefs, raising sunken ships (or their cargo), putting out fires, and so on.
So, to make it simple, a wreck in space, no matter how it became a wreck, is fair game for the first person to 'Salvage' it. This is what I believe CCP intended when they put the salvage rules in place.
A Quick Tip:
There are many ways to avoid having a ninja salvage your mission before you do..... However crying on the forum isn't one of them.
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Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer
"I've got a couple of Strippers on my ship... and they just love to dance!"
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Earl Comstock
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Posted - 2009.09.01 16:11:00 -
[24]
Bring a dedicated salvage ship along with you on missions. Put all the loot into a jetcan and keep your hold availabe for salvage. This will allow you to hold all the salvage and flag the salvager if they decide to go pirate and steal from the can.
Do not mission alone. Eve is not a solo game. When a ninja salvager beam locks onto a wreck and you can't tractor it away, blow it up.
Forget trying to 'hire' them to come along with you and split salvage loot. Whatever deal you work out will cost them more than the zero they spend salvaging(*), and they have zero risk from not giving you 'your cut' anyway.
Easy. Don't need any code changes.
(*)This is my only 'issue' with "salvaging as a profession." The profits are far out of proportion to the risks.
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Joe Starbreaker
Octavian Vanguard
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Posted - 2009.09.01 16:16:00 -
[25]
Cry more! My ship needs lube!
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Brizae
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.09.01 16:22:00 -
[26]
There is no debating salvaging. It is working as intended. When are you little limp wristed nancy boy crybabies going to realize this?
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XXSketchxx
Gallente
Remote Soviet Industries
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Posted - 2009.09.01 16:30:00 -
[27]
What debate?
_____________________________________________
-Sketch, Certified Pharmacist
Need a Boost?
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Sig Sour
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Posted - 2009.09.01 17:03:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Proffessor Pwner
>actually, if I were to get into a car accident and total my car, I don't simply get to leave it on the road, and people certainly can't just come up to it and take parts from it now can they?
Then nobody but the pilot of the ship you killed should have the ability to salvage that NPC wreck... but its a game, he is an NPC, and he is dead. So what now? - public domain.
Tired old subject, make 6 million more threads about it.
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Gad'ui
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Posted - 2009.09.03 08:25:00 -
[29]
heh, i think you fell into his trap of making a thread which all trolls will post.
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Mad Maulkin
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Posted - 2009.09.03 08:38:00 -
[30]
no, what I think happend was that he was trying to be all calm and logical and "mature", not realising that the issue has been debated to death allready, and both sides are firmly enthrenched in their view of the situation...
After 20 threads of MR calling us thieves and whining on "broken" game mechanincs, you realise you cant get anywhere
Signed
A Carebear
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, da |
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