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Bulk Paint
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Posted - 2003.06.23 15:17:00 -
[1]
At the time of writing, I have yet to be subject to the spectre of lag killing. (I've come close with a bunch of asteroids, cargo containers and a rather angry Serpentis Chief Sentinal...) AIUI, this is the nefarious practice of filling an area with cargo canisters or other debris so that when someone warps into the vicinity, they are left vulnerable whilst their machine attempts to load all of the meshes / textures that it needs. Meanwhile, the people who laid the canisters out are merrily chipping away at the target's hull before he can do anything. Clearly this is unrealistic and, for want of a better term, an exploit.
So here's a couple of suggestions for potential fixes. Firstly - cargo containers are pretty low priority when you get down to it. They're normally only of interest to people once the dust of combat has settled. To this end, there's no real reason why they can't be loaded at a later date. Let the player still move around, prep shields, return fire, etc. all the while gradually loading in the details of as many cargo containers that the player's machine can handle.
Secondly, and perhaps more cleanly - why not just keep the player in limbo until his machine says it's ready to carry on? That way everyone is on an even footing and it comes down to the skills of the pilots and loadout of the ships involved (which is surely the whole point).
Just a couple of thoughts.
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Bulk Paint
Lost In Space |
Axelay
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Posted - 2003.06.23 15:51:00 -
[2]
The lag isn't coming from the containers.
It's coming from the huge amount of data that has to be transmitted about all of the ships in the area.
You may have noticed that you will rubber-band when approaching a gate sometimes, and that means that there is someone else near the gate nearly every time it does this.
The lag that people experience comes from the fact that they have to get the data for all the other ships in the area. If we have 5 people at a gate that means that your client info has to be sent out to each of the 5 players there waiting, and you have to receive info on the 5 players to your PC.
That is where the lag is coming from. Doesn't matter if there are 10 cargo pods or 100. The lag is the same.
But players do not think in those terms, so this rumor of us dumping containers to lag people with cargo pods are nothing more than uneducated baseless accusations.
The devs know this, so it doesn't really matter whether you believe it or not.
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m0o
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Darkannis
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Posted - 2003.06.23 15:54:00 -
[3]
so - why do you lag when approaching a gate with containers around it but no players?
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Athule Snanm
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Posted - 2003.06.23 15:57:00 -
[4]
I for one would just like an official comment one way or the other. Personally I think that 100+ containers probably would cause appreciable lag, certainly for people on modems - but that's just speculation. One way or another, the silence about it is strange as it's such a hot topic that they must be aware of the level of discussion about it. You are certainly right about one thing, it doesn't matter if it causes lag or not - the discussion about it causes more damage than the actual activity itself, so why no statement from CCP?
Have fun
Finn
_______________________________
Doomheim - EVE's only hygiene! |
Callia
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Posted - 2003.06.23 16:05:00 -
[5]
You are wrong Ax.
The client also needs to recieve the data on the positions of the cargo pods and this is extra data that needs to be sent so can result in lag, particually if there is a lot of it due to a lot of cantainers. That is why we experience lag approaching gates surrounded by containers even when there are no ships about.
Bulk Paint - I suspect the problem with doing things the other way around is it opens up the potential for exploiting in the opposite direction with a sniffer program or something like. The player dropping out of warp would get all the info on everything in the area before the other players knew they were there. I guess there is potential for misusing that info.
Still might be a better solution though, one informed person vs. a group suprised seems likely to be fairer than one helpless person vs. a group with a headstart.
Who are you to tell me to question authority? |
ShadowStrike
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Posted - 2003.06.23 16:09:00 -
[6]
Using cargo containers, is just like using a DoS (denial of service) attack. Just like a ping, it might be a small amount of data, but when the numbers are large enough it creates a problem. Essentially choking the bandwidth between server and client.
Edited by: ShadowStrike on 23/06/2003 16:09:57
You currently have 157 skills and 26,183,909 Brain cells |
Bulk Paint
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Posted - 2003.06.23 16:10:00 -
[7]
How would the arriving player have an advantage?
Certainly on my machine, the screen doesn't actually update until everything is in place (in which case I would appear and be vulnerable to the campers). This means that I can't see who's there let alone do anything about it.
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Bulk Paint
Lost In Space |
Axelay
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Posted - 2003.06.23 16:12:00 -
[8]
The data on the the cargo pods is minimal compared to the data for the player.
So small it's not even really worth worrying about.
You warp in to asteroid belts with 100+ objects in them and when do you lag the most?
When there are npc pirates there, or groups of players mining.
(I had to put it in mining terms because that's all most of you have ever done.)
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m0o
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Callia
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Posted - 2003.06.23 16:14:00 -
[9]
That is why I mentioned a sniffer program, which would be a cheat program that could display the data to you before the eve client would by reading the packets as they came in.
It would be a cheat and against the rules.
As I said I think you are probably right. I was just pointing out a potential problem. I still think it would be a lesser one.
Who are you to tell me to question authority? |
Avatar
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Posted - 2003.06.23 16:25:00 -
[10]
thats just not true tho is it. takes like over 30 seconds to load a mOo blockaded jump gate becoz of all those containers, even after they;ve gone. takes at most like 5-10 seconds at any other gate i have ever been to
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Valeria
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Posted - 2003.06.23 16:45:00 -
[11]
We destroy any containers that appear due to ever-spawning NPC pirates. I don't see why M0o doesn't do this if it doesn't give them an advantage anyway...
Your 425mm Prototype I Gauss Gun perfectly strikes some nublar, wrecking for 1155.0 damage. |
Sparc Ambertin
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Posted - 2003.06.23 16:46:00 -
[12]
Hey Axelay,
since you cows are so well educated about network management and serious programming just tell us why I was podded yesterday after over 20 sec. loading time with only two ships and loads of containers at the gate ?
And before I hear something about my crappy hardware: I really have a good computer with an 1Mbit link, and after several years in the IT buisiness I know what Im doing.
Oh, another point:
If it has nothing to do with the containers, why you bother to drop them in the first place ?
At least use mines and wait till your victim can answer your demands.
--
"Don't laugh at the frigate, for he will laugh at you when his friends show up."
- Mercenary Frigates. |
The Wretch
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Posted - 2003.06.23 16:51:00 -
[13]
It is a lot harder to target someone or target the jump gate if it is covered in cargo containers. I personally do not lag from cargo containers on my connection or computer. Missles will detonate if struck by a cargo container also. Cargo containers to me is no different then someone throwing up a huge road blockade with trash. The advantage is not lag.
The more ships/action in the area the greater the lag upon entering.
The Wretch
Cyberdyne Systems CEO
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Zedia
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Posted - 2003.06.23 16:52:00 -
[14]
Either way I don't see why they cannot start sending the data on where things are as soon as you start to enter warp. Obviously the server knows what area you will come out of warp. Why can't it look ahead and start sending you the data on ships and cargo containers while you are enroute?
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Sparc Ambertin
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Posted - 2003.06.23 16:59:00 -
[15]
Wretch,
thanks for the explanation.
But wouldn't it be nice from moo to refrain from using this tactic until the lag problems are solved ?
Maybe the lag is not Hardware specific, but depends on your rl location.
Maybe some router is to busy to handle the burst of data from the containers ?
--
"Don't laugh at the frigate, for he will laugh at you when his friends show up."
- Mercenary Frigates. |
The Wretch
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Posted - 2003.06.23 17:23:00 -
[16]
The worse lag I ever get upon entering an area is when heavy combat is already in motion. Your system is trying to update on the load with several changes taking place during that load at the same time. I don't know how CCP could make it any better then it is now since I am far from a network specialist.
The Wretch
Cyberdyne Systems CEO
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Axelay
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Posted - 2003.06.24 11:09:00 -
[17]
I think it's kinda cute how I explain to you all where the lag comes from and you mock me.
Bur wretch tells you the same thing and you suddenly 'get it'.
lol
And whoever the git was who challened me with his oh-so-clever question, I never said that there was no lag, I said the lag doesn't come from the cargo. I agree that there is a great deal of lag when approaching a m0o gate, I recieve it as well when I join them there. But you must understand that it is not anything we can stop, short of not being at the gate at the same time, and that isn't going to change as long as the rules allow it. :)
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m0o
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Astaroth
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Posted - 2003.06.24 11:23:00 -
[18]
http://vefpostur.internet.is/Session/94936-taqePCr1Yk44eIYNmXct/WebFile/combat.jpg
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Curious Orange
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Posted - 2003.06.24 11:28:00 -
[19]
So there you have it, M0o are just leaving the cargo containers around for decoration.
Well I believe that one; Excuse me I just have to go to my bridge game with the the Tooth Fairy, Easter Bunny and Father Christmas.
__________________________________________
I have no problem with pirates of any kind.
However dropping masses of cargo containers is clearly cheating; and appropriate sanctions should be implemented for anyone caught doing it. I understand that catching people would be tricky but with set the penalty high enough and people would simply stop doing it. Deletion of the character involved I would think was sufficient punishment to stop anyone cheating in this manner.
Alternatively allow the option to switch on and off the rendering of cargo containers completely; I imagine most people would choose this option when travelling if it were available.
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Axelay
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Posted - 2003.06.24 11:33:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Axelay on 24/06/2003 11:34:13
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m0o
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Bulk Paint
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Posted - 2003.06.24 11:39:00 -
[21]
The original idea behind this thread was to come up with solutions to the problem of lag when entering an area rather than bemoaning the people who exploit it.
I would say that something along the lines of sorting it all out before you appear at the exit point of your warp is definitely the way to go. Since you cannot cancel a warp, Zedia's suggestion of working it all out en route is an excellent one. Couple that with a 'witch space' at the end where you wait for the final stuff to be loaded before popping into existance, and the lag problem goes away.
Granted, from what I've seen in the screenshots, it looks like the containers could still be used as some kind of 'chaff' to impede targetting but that's more likely to be just as much of a problem to the pirates as their prey.
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Bulk Paint
Lost In Space |
lexxx
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Posted - 2003.06.24 11:43:00 -
[22]
1, the game is not server side it client side do you know why coes i just upgraded froma 1.3 athlon to a XP 3000+ and the there is about 1-2 sec lag (not like upto 20 secs it has gone up to) now when warping in to a mining op no more no less
this is not a networking problem its a games prblem with redering all the stuff dam CCp you need to change the way the objets are loaded soon as i come out of warp the objets are rendered
thay should be rended BEfore you come out of warp its just lame
2, stuped reder bug is when users are chatting in the ingame chat box THAT makes lag my game judders when some one chats in the ingame chat omg that is lame
the game is good apart from it still been in beta
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The Slayer
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Posted - 2003.06.24 11:44:00 -
[23]
YES, Excellent idea, why have 10-15 seconds of flying through space doing next to nothing then 2-3 seeconds of trying ot load EVERYTHING into memory, if done in teh 10-15 seconds you would hardly notice any lag.
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-EF- The Slayer |
Ywev
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Posted - 2003.06.24 13:59:00 -
[24]
containers are a waste of space, anyone that kills something has time to up to 5 mins to go check if its valuable. They should make containers despawn after 7 mins. Will fix the so called container blockade issue, then, you will have to listen to macro miners saying my omber just poofed. :)
Pod ya later..
Ywev
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Selila
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Posted - 2003.06.24 14:17:00 -
[25]
What's needed is a gigantic mutant space goat, or a swarm of killer space bees to sweep by and eat all the cargo containers, and one or two nearby ships every so often.
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drunkenmaster
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Posted - 2003.06.24 14:28:00 -
[26]
The way I see it is that the whole 'warp-arrive-load all-continue' problem, is primarily designed around a need to stop people cheating, and getting the info about the items in the destination area. This would give them an advantage.
As for the precise cause of the lag, I can't say. I would say that it wasn't a networking issue, as I have watched the bandwidth meter, and even under what looks like heavy load, it is not sending/recieving much data at all.
I think it's more likely that this lag is due to precalculation of several high-poly ships, and transferring of textures across the AGP. While PC's are rather high tech, they still have bottlenecks, and huge uncompressed texture transfers are one of them.
solutions:
1. Preload models/textures during the 'final' step of the warp (you cannot abort/stop a warp anyway, so it would have no effect on gameplay). You would not need to know 'who' is in space, or 'where', just roughly 'what'.
2. Have texture settings by choice (1/2 qual or 1/4 qual options)
3. Use DXT compression.
4. Er... space goats.
Now, not everyone can use 3, so that sort of rules it out. I think the first two are still valid though.
(That is providing my diagnosis was right in the first place... I'm known to kame mistakes (rarely))
Edited by: drunkenmaster on 24/06/2003 14:29:48
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Crepiscule
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Posted - 2003.06.24 15:33:00 -
[27]
</sarcasm on>
I'd just like to make a formal complaint about the miners.
You see they are dumping cargo container after cargo container creating a hell of a lot of lag.
On top of that they are using asteroids as cover make my life as a pirate very difficult.
To help us out, could you please put a 5 minute timer on cargo containers or give them a random duration please?
Thanks.
</sarcasm off>
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DREAMWORKS
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Posted - 2003.06.24 15:52:00 -
[28]
Axelay, why not prevent such talk about you using exploits and instead of that just destroy them? It would certainly proof your point then.
As a person who has years of experience with networking and internet, and having a job where such experience is aquired i know as a fact that any data in large numbers can kill your connection by lag.
If you set out 40 containers, those are 40 containers the Internet has to send over all the diffrent isp's in the world. Creating lag.
DoS attacks like someone said are maybe an easy compare indeed. You create several devices to send data to a location, in this case not only the containers are the data but also the ships and the stargate are.
They all produce data from their location, data from their movement and this constant stream of data will cause your client to wait longer till it archieved all data necessary to show the data you need.
In other words, the containers are not the only cause of the lag, the ships are indeed helping alot... Maybe most of it. Still employing cargo containers to make it worse, is using an exploit. And you cannot claim they do nothing, since there is always a little bit of lag when you come out of warp. So yes you can call it an exploit, atleast when you intent to cause the lag by deploying containers, not by shooting pirates and be to lazy to pick them up.
__________________________
http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html |
DeathMan
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Posted - 2003.06.24 16:01:00 -
[29]
Well lag sometimes isn't the containers thats for damn sure. Its how many people are going in and out of the system tooo. Was around in really high sec space with lots of people. No one on screen and laggy thinkin I was back on a 14.4 modem if that.
Containers might do with that but I be its the lag from the system your in and surroundin systems that are getting to yea.
Deathman
Admiral
Blackship Industries
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Jazger
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Posted - 2003.06.24 16:14:00 -
[30]
why not just have the system do its short pause/lag as it loads the areas data once the person warping to the area is about 200k from the target area.
ie - You warp to gate, once you get to the 200k mark. (when your still in warp) Have the lag out hit, load the area. then have the person begin its come out of warp phase.
That way, they've got the area loaded, and have no lag apon ariveing in the area. No matter the cans/people thier. (save the normal lag of dealing with 70 or so folks in a system.)
That would solve the problem, and would not let folks "cheat" by finding out whats thier before they show up.
Heck have it start loading the data at 500k even.
seems it would solve the issue. And I'd much rather lag out 500k or 200k from the gate/area. Then lag out apon ariveing, only to come out of lag 1/2 dead.
Edit - just saw that drunkenmaster said somehting to this effect as well. great minds think alike [;)]
Jazger
"Cannon Fodder, monster bait, or candidates for an impromptu sacrifice are always handy to have along when venturing into the unknowen"
Edited by: Jazger on 24/06/2003 16:15:56
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