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Unholy Rage and Macros

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Conchan Amaroni	Posted - 2009.09.06 00:46:00 - [1] Hi all, I have been gone for quite a while, and have read about CCP's war against isk selling. My question is, will they ban people for using macros to fill their own pockets with isk? I.E. I used to use a macro while I slept so I had some nice spending money in the morning. Might I get banned for this?? Thanks Conch P.S.- For those who hate macroers; those big ice belts are going nowhere fast. Even before CPP's banfest the 400 something miners in osmon took all day to destroy an ice belt. I doubt it'll hurt you guys much.
Nicholas Barker Black Nova Corp	Posted - 2009.09.06 00:48:00 - [2] Originally by: Conchan Amaroni I used to use a macro while I slept so I had some nice spending money in the morning. BUSTED! ------ back from 90day forum ban.
Joe SMASH	Posted - 2009.09.06 00:54:00 - [3] Originally by: Conchan Amaroni Hi all, I have been gone for quite a while, and have read about CCP's war against isk selling. My question is, will they ban people for using macros to fill their own pockets with isk? I.E. I used to use a macro while I slept so I had some nice spending money in the morning. Might I get banned for this?? Thanks Conch P.S.- For those who hate macroers; those big ice belts are going nowhere fast. Even before CPP's banfest the 400 something miners in osmon took all day to destroy an ice belt. I doubt it'll hurt you guys much. Ummm... So you admit to running a macro to afk mine? Wow, enjoy your ban! This game needs a lot less people like you.
Conchan Amaroni	Posted - 2009.09.06 00:58:00 - [4] Edited by: Conchan Amaroni on 06/09/2009 00:59:45 Oh dear, maybe I should have googled it before I asked... Ahh well, maybe CCP will be lenient for long past transgressions. http://eve.grismar.net/wikka.php?wakka=WhatAreMacros&show_comments=1
Joe SMASH	Posted - 2009.09.06 01:01:00 - [5] Originally by: Eve Online EULA Section 7.3 states: You may not use macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game. Glad I could help! Hopefully you will get banned.
Messoroz	Posted - 2009.09.06 01:01:00 - [6] Macros are carebear terms for bots.
Conchan Amaroni	Posted - 2009.09.06 01:04:00 - [7] Edited by: Conchan Amaroni on 06/09/2009 01:06:48 Hahaha, I know what they are. That article also referred to their legality, or rather illegality. Smash seems to want me kicked, and I don't blame him. I have displayed a lack of judgement in posting this... Is there any way to delete a thread???
Joe SMASH	Posted - 2009.09.06 01:09:00 - [8] Originally by: Conchan Amaroni Edited by: Conchan Amaroni on 06/09/2009 01:06:48 Hahaha, I know what they are. That article also referred to their legality, or rather illegality. Smash seems to want me kicked, and I don't blame him. I have displayed a lack of judgement in posting this... Is there any way to delete a thread??? I am voting op is a troll. If so, I will give you 7/10 for getting me riled up. If you are not a troll and really want the thread deleted. I suggest opening up a petition with this thread's URL and asking it to be locked/deleted. CCP will be glad to help you out in a very quick and timely fashion!
Vaschlaar	Posted - 2009.09.06 01:09:00 - [9] If you could get a darwin award for forum activity, you would be a worthy winner sir.
Lord Windu Amarr Twilight Federation	Posted - 2009.09.06 01:11:00 - [10] From how I understand things, macro's are putting more strain on the game servers resulting in lower server performance and increased cost to CCP "in upgrades and such". So it wouldn't matter if it was a macro user doing it for RMT or if it was someone just doing it to boost their wallet. Also it is giving the user an unfair advantage over other players ultimately effecting the general market, so in short it is bad for CCP and it is bad for the genuine players who are not resorting to cheating. I can't help but wonder if you are just a troll though as you would have to be really stupid to openly admit that you have used a macro on here. Enjoy your ban.

Joe SMASH	Posted - 2009.09.06 01:15:00 - [11] Nice edit of the original post. See my first comment with the original post quoted.
Taedrin Gallente The Space Bar South The Compass	Posted - 2009.09.06 01:21:00 - [12] Well, if you no longer use macros at all, CCP may be lenient on you. They mentioned in their unholy rage blog that the RMT characters only received a temporary ban at first. Unfortunately, they blew their second chance and immediately returned to RMT so CCP permabanned them. For you, you will probably receive one of the three following punishments from CCP should they discover this thread: 1) You receive a warning and they keep tabs on your account to make sure you don't do it again. 2) They remove an amount of ISK from your wallet equivalent to what you made through the use of macros. They will ALSO remove any items that you bought with ISK so you get a double penalty here. Frequently you will end up with a wallet in the negative and you will be unable to complete any transactions and will have to rat your way out of debt. 3) They give you a temporary ban. They might give you a perma ban, but I honestly don't think CCP will do that in this circumstance.
Lord Windu Amarr Twilight Federation	Posted - 2009.09.06 01:28:00 - [13] Pic of the OP's un-edited fail.
Michwich	Posted - 2009.09.06 01:43:00 - [14] CCP has no right telling you how you can use your own computer. That is your property not theirs. They do have a right in telling you not to modify their property. However with bots youre not doing any such thing, youre automating what can be done by a human in game therefore your method of game operation is valid as any other. If taken to a court of law id suspect youd get youre account back and even recieve compensation for any damages youve suffered because of that ban. The rules of what can and cant be done in game are hard coded into the game, therefore if you can do it, its valid. This is why companies have put in bot curbing measures such as disconnecting you if you do something to fast or other similar strategies. These kinds of acts by companies are an admission of where the responsibility lies when it comes to botting - the game company and their game design. They have no legal basis in banning bots, they only do because they can get away with it. In short, a game company cant tell you how you can use youre computer. They can deisgn game that encourages you to use it a certain way though.
Cypherous Minmatar Liberty Rogues Rally Against Evil	Posted - 2009.09.06 01:47:00 - [15] Originally by: Michwich CCP has no right telling you how you can use your own computer. That is your property not theirs. They do have a right in telling you not to modify their property. However with bots youre not doing any such thing, youre automating what can be done by a human in game therefore your method of game operation is valid as any other. If taken to a court of law id suspect youd get youre account back and even recieve compensation for any damages youve suffered because of that ban. The rules of what can and cant be done in game are hard coded into the game, therefore if you can do it, its valid. This is why companies have put in bot curbing measures such as disconnecting you if you do something to fast or other similar strategies. These kinds of acts by companies are an admission of where the responsibility lies when it comes to botting - the game company and their game design. They have no legal basis in banning bots, they only do because they can get away with it. In short, a game company cant tell you how you can use youre computer. They can deisgn game that encourages you to use it a certain way though. Nope you can do whatever you want with your own PC and CCP are free to do whatever they want with their accounts, don't forget you don't actually own your account and the EULA lets them ban you for whatever reason they choose, good luck winning that legal battle ;)
Gieron Two toons mining	Posted - 2009.09.06 01:48:00 - [16] Originally by: Conchan Amaroni those big ice belts are going nowhere fast. Even before CPP's banfest the 400 something miners in osmon took all day to destroy an ice belt. I doubt even 400 macro miners could pop even one ice roid. They're pretty big.
Joe SMASH	Posted - 2009.09.06 01:50:00 - [17] Originally by: Michwich If taken to a court of law id suspect youd get youre account back and even recieve compensation for any damages Wow... No court of law would touch a case like that, nor would any lawyer worth paying for. CCP's customers pay for a service. By paying for that service you agree to CCP's terms of use for said service. If you cannot adhere to the terms, you should not pay. CCP is well within their rights to ban anyone for anything at anytime if they deem it so. Period. The only thing you, the OP and I pay for every month is access to the game servers. Everything else is not part of the original agreement. Read the EULA and Terms of Use. /lawyered
Michwich	Posted - 2009.09.06 01:52:00 - [18] Originally by: Cypherous Originally by: Michwich CCP has no right telling you how you can use your own computer. That is your property not theirs. They do have a right in telling you not to modify their property. However with bots youre not doing any such thing, youre automating what can be done by a human in game therefore your method of game operation is valid as any other. If taken to a court of law id suspect youd get youre account back and even recieve compensation for any damages youve suffered because of that ban. The rules of what can and cant be done in game are hard coded into the game, therefore if you can do it, its valid. This is why companies have put in bot curbing measures such as disconnecting you if you do something to fast or other similar strategies. These kinds of acts by companies are an admission of where the responsibility lies when it comes to botting - the game company and their game design. They have no legal basis in banning bots, they only do because they can get away with it. In short, a game company cant tell you how you can use youre computer. They can deisgn game that encourages you to use it a certain way though. Nope you can do whatever you want with your own PC and CCP are free to do whatever they want with their accounts, don't forget you don't actually own your account and the EULA lets them ban you for whatever reason they choose, good luck winning that legal battle ;) How about you set up a company that offers internet movies for a monthly fee. AFter you get everyones money ban their account. You can say that you put in your EULA that youre not allowed to use caps. And those scumbags did!! So after you get everyones money you ban everyone and give no one anything. Let me know how that works out for you. Fact is theres more laws protecting consumers than laws protecting video game companies that want people to play a certain way.
Cypherous Minmatar Liberty Rogues Rally Against Evil	Posted - 2009.09.06 01:56:00 - [19] Originally by: Michwich How about you set up a company that offers internet movies for a monthly fee. AFter you get everyones money ban their account. You can say that you put in your EULA that youre not allowed to use caps. And those scumbags did!! So after you get everyones money you ban everyone and give no one anything. Let me know how that works out for you. Fact is theres more laws protecting consumers than laws protecting video game companies that want people to play a certain way. Except under that you're not imposing what would be deemed fair limitations on what people can and can't do, EVE is limiting you from automating the game requiring you to be present to play it fully, as i said CCP won't lose that battle in a court of law assuming you find someone who would actually take your case that far :P
Joe SMASH	Posted - 2009.09.06 02:00:00 - [20] Originally by: Michwich How about you set up a company that offers internet movies for a monthly fee. AFter you get everyones money ban their account. You can say that you put in your EULA that youre not allowed to use caps. And those scumbags did!! So after you get everyones money you ban everyone and give no one anything. Let me know how that works out for you. Fact is theres more laws protecting consumers than laws protecting video game companies that want people to play a certain way. It would be different if you never delivered a product by "banning everyone." CCP delivers a product to everyone who adhere's to the rules. Your fictional company did not deliver a product by banning everyone's account. Besides, there is an existing case on the books where the gaming company won against a company that made botting software. A company called Blizzard successfully sued the makers of a popular botting program. Linkage You do not own your characters, you do not own your items and ships, you do not even own the eve executable program on your computer. It ALL belongs to CCP. You pay to access the servers. You do own your computer and all it's hardware. Hell, you technically do not even own the OS your computer is running on (unless you are a Linux or OS X user).

Michwich	Posted - 2009.09.06 02:07:00 - [21] Edited by: Michwich on 06/09/2009 02:08:05 Originally by: Cypherous Originally by: Michwich How about you set up a company that offers internet movies for a monthly fee. AFter you get everyones money ban their account. You can say that you put in your EULA that youre not allowed to use caps. And those scumbags did!! So after you get everyones money you ban everyone and give no one anything. Let me know how that works out for you. Fact is theres more laws protecting consumers than laws protecting video game companies that want people to play a certain way. Except under that you're not imposing what would be deemed fair limitations on what people can and can't do, EVE is limiting you from automating the game requiring you to be present to play it fully, as i said CCP won't lose that battle in a court of law assuming you find someone who would actually take your case that far :P And thats the catch, and how most big business gets away doing what they can get away with, because you cant afford to fight back. Im just saying if you did youd most likely win, until the courts would eventually side with the companies and change laws accordingly. But I havent heard anything yet and thats when video game companies are gonna have to pay up and bribe legislators to make favourable laws for their industry. So dont worry, CCP still has a chance. But what would probably happen is youd get your account back for whatever was left on your subscribtion only to be perma ganked by CCP everytime you logged in until they could legaly refuse your business and ban you for good.
Joe SMASH	Posted - 2009.09.06 02:13:00 - [22] As someone who went to law school and passed the bar exam. I will tell you that you will not win the case, even if you could afford to take it on. Full disclosure: I am not a lawyer. I do have a law degree. I decided that law did not make me want to get up in the morning. I am now a computer engineer. (Took the 10 year track through college!)
Metalcali Dreams In Digital	Posted - 2009.09.06 02:56:00 - [23] Originally by: Michwich whining about something unimportant No one says you have to keep playing if you don't like it, and that's what a trial account is for. Seeing as you have been playing, you must have accepted the terms seeing as you are paying. Don't like how that works, find a different game and be happier. --- Originally by: CCP Mitnal Locked. OP does not contain an idea.
Erinyes Nazgul	Posted - 2009.09.06 02:56:00 - [24] Originally by: Michwich Edited by: Michwich on 06/09/2009 01:48:15 CCP has no right telling you how you can use your own computer. That is your property not theirs. They do have a right in telling you not to modify their property. The account is CCP's property. He has no right to use it outside of CCP's terms. End of case. Try again.
Conchan Amaroni	Posted - 2009.09.06 03:03:00 - [25] This topic has gone far beyond what I originally wanted, and I am very suprised. The reading has actually been informative and entertaining. Smash, stop trying to get me banned I rather enjoy playing this game! I have done a little research and several internet sites have talked about taking legal action against CCP and the viability of such. (something I would never do by the way)... I suppose we will find the verdict sometime tomorrow when someone from CCP posts..
Loyal Servant Caldari Pure Annihilation Minor Threat.	Posted - 2009.09.06 03:12:00 - [26] I can verify that macro ratters and mission runners are still alive and well in eve. All they did was log into their backup toons and keep going. The target system that they use in their article is re-infested with mission farmers once again. It was short lived....
Washell Olivaw	Posted - 2009.09.06 04:04:00 - [27] Originally by: Loyal Servant It was short lived.... They hacked/farmed/spend a lot of ISK to get started again. That's ISK they could not sell thus diminishing their profit margin. And every char/ship/item/module they bought will be banned again. CCP wasn't and isn't expecting this to be over in just one, two or three rounds of bans. The plan/hope is that gaining ISK will come at a higher price than they can sell it for. Originally by: Signature Everybody has a photographic memory, some people just don't have film.
Loyal Servant Caldari Pure Annihilation Minor Threat.	Posted - 2009.09.06 06:24:00 - [28] Originally by: Washell Olivaw Originally by: Loyal Servant It was short lived.... They hacked/farmed/spend a lot of ISK to get started again. That's ISK they could not sell thus diminishing their profit margin. And every char/ship/item/module they bought will be banned again. CCP wasn't and isn't expecting this to be over in just one, two or three rounds of bans. The plan/hope is that gaining ISK will come at a higher price than they can sell it for. What I mean by short lived is that they were in there literally 2 days later back at it. They are not at the levels they were when CCP smacked them with the spiked bat but I give it another month and they will be back to normal. The number of macro ratters in 0.0 has skyrocketed in the last 2 months as well.. spreading out so it's not so obvious. When you see 200 farmers in an ice field it's obvious. When you see 1 macro ratter every other system or 2 its not so obvious.
stoicfaux	Posted - 2009.09.06 15:31:00 - [29] Originally by: Michwich CCP has no right telling you how you can use your own computer. And the government has no right to tell you how to use your body, which is why no country has laws about alcohol, drugs (medicinal and illegal,) suicide, abortion, organ donation, medical procedures, what you can read or listen to, and so on. But yes, you're correct. CCP can't stop you from modifying your computer. Conversely, you cannot force CCP to make you a customer of CCP and be allowed to connect to CCP's servers to play CCP's game. (Well, unless you prove that CCP was discriminating against you, which assumes that CCP is subject to laws to that effect. I'm pretty sure that Macro/Bot users aren't a protected class of people.) So what can you do? You'll need to get some legislation passed (in multiple countries?) to make it illegal for a game's Terms of Service to exclude bots/macros. You'll need to get a lot of people to support your cause since companies like CCP bring in tax revenue and can afford better lobbyists and lawyers than the average righteous cause. You'll need to figure out a good PR campaign, such as being Pro-Gamer's-Bill-of-Rights to avoid the negativity of being associated with parasitical ISK-sellers. Your biggest problem with be with the commonly held, but incorrect belief that macros/bots ruin the game for the average player. So you'll need a study or two showing that macros/bots actually increase player satisfaction, increase tax revenue, etc.. You will also need to make the argument that legitimizing macros/bots and the selling of in-game items will eliminate the risk of having a black market trade. Meaning if macros/bots/selling is legal, then the Players will not be subject to trojans, keyloggers, virii, etc. that are commonly associated with current "illegal" item resellers. Anyone who is against your Gamer's Bill of Rights is anti-capitalism, anti-freedom, and supports the Evil Virus People who infect our children's computers and leave them vulnerable to child molesters. Show your support for the Children(tm)(c)(patent pending) by supporting the Gamer's Bill of Rights! So do your research, hire a few lawyers, a PR company, and a fund raiser. Look at history's examples (RIAA, MPAA, abortion rights, the drug war, gun rights, subsidies, tariffs, etc.) and see what it takes to get an "unpopular" view legalized. Best of luck to you and your Gamer's Bill of Rights!
Mad Maulkin	Posted - 2009.09.06 19:56:00 - [30] Originally by: stoicfaux Originally by: Michwich CCP has no right telling you how you can use your own computer. And the government has no right to tell you how to use your body, which is why no country has laws about alcohol, drugs (medicinal and illegal,) suicide, abortion, organ donation, medical procedures, what you can read or listen to, and so on. But yes, you're correct. CCP can't stop you from modifying your computer. Conversely, you cannot force CCP to make you a customer of CCP and be allowed to connect to CCP's servers to play CCP's game. (Well, unless you prove that CCP was discriminating against you, which assumes that CCP is subject to laws to that effect. I'm pretty sure that Macro/Bot users aren't a protected class of people.) So what can you do? You'll need to get some legislation passed (in multiple countries?) to make it illegal for a game's Terms of Service to exclude bots/macros. You'll need to get a lot of people to support your cause since companies like CCP bring in tax revenue and can afford better lobbyists and lawyers than the average righteous cause. You'll need to figure out a good PR campaign, such as being Pro-Gamer's-Bill-of-Rights to avoid the negativity of being associated with parasitical ISK-sellers. Your biggest problem with be with the commonly held, but incorrect belief that macros/bots ruin the game for the average player. So you'll need a study or two showing that macros/bots actually increase player satisfaction, increase tax revenue, etc.. You will also need to make the argument that legitimizing macros/bots and the selling of in-game items will eliminate the risk of having a black market trade. Meaning if macros/bots/selling is legal, then the Players will not be subject to trojans, keyloggers, virii, etc. that are commonly associated with current "illegal" item resellers. Anyone who is against your Gamer's Bill of Rights is anti-capitalism, anti-freedom, and supports the Evil Virus People who infect our children's computers and leave them vulnerable to child molesters. Show your support for the Children(tm)(c)(patent pending) by supporting the Gamer's Bill of Rights! So do your research, hire a few lawyers, a PR company, and a fund raiser. Look at history's examples (RIAA, MPAA, abortion rights, the drug war, gun rights, subsidies, tariffs, etc.) and see what it takes to get an "unpopular" view legalized. Best of luck to you and your Gamer's Bill of Rights! Mad Maulkin gives a standing ovation! Originally by:* CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world



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