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Stargazer Monk
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2009.09.06 05:21:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Stargazer Monk on 06/09/2009 05:24:31 Anybody ever play with these guys? At the moment I am playing with about 7 of these guys on the market with an item that is (was) worth close to 100m. Keeping in mind I am selling 1 of said item to their stacks of them, I have got them to reduce the price by 10 mill (?!) so far over a couple days. I keep dropping 1m at a time and they all follow while undercutting each other by 1 isk. I am selling the item for far less than its worth but I don't mind, I want to see how far they will follow me lol. This kind of mentality of chasing a 1 item seller on the market by the sellers has always puzzled me, It's not very profitable for them to do so yet they see it as some kind of competition. Well here's hoping no one buys the item so I can keep going.
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soldieroffortune 258
Gallente Trinity Council Seposita Astrum
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Posted - 2009.09.06 05:29:00 -
[2]
Do what? Please re-size your signature to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes.Applebabe
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Shogun Archer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.09.06 05:31:00 -
[3]
Yeah. The logic of some people that play the markets baffles me.
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Rhohan
Minmatar Pelennor Swarm
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Posted - 2009.09.06 05:32:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Rhohan on 06/09/2009 05:33:05
Someone will just buy it from you and sell it at the higher price, eventually.
Someone will make money off of your little game, but it doesn't sound like it will be you.
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Khemul Zula
Amarr Keisen Trade League
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Posted - 2009.09.06 05:39:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Stargazer Monk ...I am selling the item for far less than its worth but I don't mind, I want to see how far they will follow me lol... ...Well here's hoping no one buys the item so I can keep going.
Originally by: Shogun Archer Yeah. The logic of some people that play the markets baffles me.
Agreed.
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Stargazer Monk
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2009.09.06 05:40:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Rhohan Edited by: Rhohan on 06/09/2009 05:33:05
Someone will just buy it from you and sell it at the higher price, eventually.
Someone will make money off of your little game, but it doesn't sound like it will be you.
Rhohan they should if they had any sense true. I am losing 10m on the item so far as it is, these guys selling stacks of 10 or more can potentially lose hundreds of millions chasing a 1 item seller. I should be buying all their stock and reselling it but I don't play the market game although if it gets ridiculously low I may just do that ^.^
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Samroski
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Posted - 2009.09.06 06:05:00 -
[7]
These guys are rich. A few hundred million means nothing to them. As a rule they stamp out competition, and want to make you (or anybody else trying to get into their market) run away.
There is a thread in Market Discussions every other day by a player raging/whining/saying exactly what you have. Check these out.
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Stargazer Monk
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2009.09.06 06:52:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Stargazer Monk on 06/09/2009 06:56:02
Originally by: Samroski These guys are rich. A few hundred million means nothing to them. As a rule they stamp out competition, and want to make you (or anybody else trying to get into their market) run away.
There is a thread in Market Discussions every other day by a player raging/whining/saying exactly what you have. Check these out.
Sam thats my point, I am not competition, 1 item sellers are not competition lol. There are thousands of people that sell the odd item here and there at the lowest price on the market everyday. There is no point or profit in undercutting these types of sellers because they come and go almost instantly. These guys combined are potentially risking close to a billion isk now (as they have all dropped their price by 10m so far and each have stacks of said item) to weed out someone selling 1 item? I'm no market expert but that does not make any sense to me lol. Btw Im not whining or raging, just bemused at how these people operate is all.
Like Rhohan said someone should have bought me out by now, if any of them had any sense they would just buy my 1 item instead of chasing me. Although I'm actually thinking of trying to get enough isk together to buy them out if this keeps going any further ^.^
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Sturmwolke
Genyosha Legion
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Posted - 2009.09.06 06:52:00 -
[9]
Quite a good number are bots that undercuts with precision. Note the the 1-2 secs differences between the train of orders and you'll have a hard time believing a human is behind those orders.
Just drop to as low as you're prepared to accept, if you get undercut, let it sit to burn the market. Also, never sell/trade in Jita if you're not prepared to babysit orders or let it sit for a while.
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Cassiopeia Draco
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Posted - 2009.09.06 07:58:00 -
[10]
its just as much fun to play with buy orders, and push the prices up to the point where you want to sell the item at.
You just have to be careful that you dont push them too high.
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Samroski
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Posted - 2009.09.06 18:30:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Stargazer Monk Edited by: Stargazer Monk on 06/09/2009 06:56:02
Originally by: Samroski These guys are rich. A few hundred million means nothing to them. As a rule they stamp out competition, and want to make you (or anybody else trying to get into their market) run away.
There is a thread in Market Discussions every other day by a player raging/whining/saying exactly what you have. Check these out.
Sam thats my point, I am not competition, 1 item sellers are not competition lol. There are thousands of people that sell the odd item here and there at the lowest price on the market everyday. There is no point or profit in undercutting these types of sellers because they come and go almost instantly. These guys combined are potentially risking close to a billion isk now (as they have all dropped their price by 10m so far and each have stacks of said item) to weed out someone selling 1 item? I'm no market expert but that does not make any sense to me lol. Btw Im not whining or raging, just bemused at how these people operate is all.
Like Rhohan said someone should have bought me out by now, if any of them had any sense they would just buy my 1 item instead of chasing me. Although I'm actually thinking of trying to get enough isk together to buy them out if this keeps going any further ^.^
I understand where you're coming from, as I've been there.
I think these traders may feel that you are testing the market with one item- and they will not give an inch. When you don't sell that item for a week- you'll just put it up elsewhere. Thus they will generally not buyout your item even at low price- as it may give you hope.
When dealing with a 100 mil item most people starting off will manufacture one unit and sell it before manufacturing another, till the funds build up to do this in bulk. The competition do not want you to sell even one (at least in their jurisdiction). They have no way of knowing that you are a mission-runner etc- and they will treat everybody as competition.
If you are rich enough you can buy their items and re-list higher, and try and play their game. But as a new trader/industrialist you cannot compete with them. And they are ruthless where (potential) competition is concerned. This is the general trend. Individual cases may differ of course.
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.09.06 18:49:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Sturmwolke Quite a good number are bots that undercuts with precision. Note the the 1-2 secs differences between the train of orders and you'll have a hard time believing a human is behind those orders.
Just drop to as low as you're prepared to accept, if you get undercut, let it sit to burn the market. Also, never sell/trade in Jita if you're not prepared to babysit orders or let it sit for a while.
Yes this is quite exploitable when you are after really large numbers of certain high priced items and want as much economy of scale as you can get. Use it sparingly though lest the bot tenders catch on and adapt.
Quote: [03:39:05] Emperor Salazar > HOLY **** ITS ZEBA [03:39:20] Emperor Salazar > NEVER STOP POASTING
Zeba is the BEST! ~Mitnal |
chillz
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.09.06 19:53:00 -
[13]
Make sure you have an alt in another hub. When you have them as low as you think you can push them and you are getting a nice profit margin in your other hub.
Buy everything and ship it to the other hub. Turn those macro bots into your suppliers ----------------------------------- A gun and a packet of sandwiches.
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - Hunter S Thompson
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Dodgy Past
Amarr Lollipops for Rancors
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Posted - 2009.09.06 23:33:00 -
[14]
Having seen how crazed the 0.01 isking can get I definitely think their might be some mileage in manipulating them.
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Taedrin
Gallente The Space Bar South The Compass
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Posted - 2009.09.06 23:58:00 -
[15]
Drag them down a fair ways, then buy up all of their stock and relist at a higher price. If they put stuff back up on the market, then haul it elsewhere and sell it for a higher price there. Rinse and repeat as necessary for more money.
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Sir Substance
Minmatar MagiTech Alliance Inc. MagiTech Corp
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Posted - 2009.09.07 03:07:00 -
[16]
its the result of badly coded bidding bots.
pro-tip:
get one of an item you need lots of. go to jita, place it for half the market price.
wait a few minutes for the bots to follow you, then buy them all cheap
only backfires if someone buys your cheap one first! ------ I, for one, welcome our new console overlords! |
Rawr Cristina
Caldari Annihilate. Minor Threat.
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Posted - 2009.09.07 03:14:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Stargazer Monk I keep dropping 1m at a time
If there's anything worse than .1 undercutters, it's people who undercut by MORE than .1 and ruin profits for everyone
- Malyutka (The Virus) - |
Nai Ling
Amarr Middle Finger Technology
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Posted - 2009.09.07 03:33:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Rawr Cristina
Originally by: Stargazer Monk I keep dropping 1m at a time
If there's anything worse than .1 undercutters, it's people who undercut by MORE than .1 and ruin profits for everyone
Undercutters don't bother me much, really. What really grinds my gears are the people that sell manufactured items for less than the mineral cost of them. Such as cruisers and frigates, and sometimes Battleships. If I had tons of disposable ISK, I would love to make a profit off those people. :(
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Verx Interis
Amarr SkyNet. Cruor-Salax Legion
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Posted - 2009.09.07 05:16:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Verx Interis on 07/09/2009 05:17:02 The majority of large undercuts are not some market-fu to get rid of competition. They usually look like this
Laz0rBeam II - 288 - 4,522,999.86 ISK Laz0rBeam II - 540 - 4,522,999.85 ISK Laz0rBeam II - 351 - 4,522,999.84 ISK [normal market logic stops here] Laz0rBeam II - 2 - 3,500,000 ISK [a non-trader just trying to sell their extra crap, order usually clears in 2-3 hours] Laz0rBeam II - 434 - 3,499,999.99 [Moron]
If you don't get it, someone drops the price by a lot because they don't use the market, then a normal trader who seems to not pay attention decides to ruin it for everyone by putting some massive quantity on the market for a lot less instead of waiting an hour for that stuff to sell..
Continuing on this, the number of people that undercut orders 20j away (15j of which are lowsec) is baffling.
Originally by: Nai Ling
Originally by: Rawr Cristina
Originally by: Stargazer Monk I keep dropping 1m at a time
If there's anything worse than .1 undercutters, it's people who undercut by MORE than .1 and ruin profits for everyone
Undercutters don't bother me much, really. What really grinds my gears are the people that sell manufactured items for less than the mineral cost of them. Such as cruisers and frigates, and sometimes Battleships. If I had tons of disposable ISK, I would love to make a profit off those people. :(
"If I mine it myself it's free!!!!!!!!!!" logic. ---- Logins required for this post: 804588 |
Intense Thinker
Minmatar Republic University
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Posted - 2009.09.07 06:30:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Verx Interis Edited by: Verx Interis on 07/09/2009 05:17:02 The majority of large undercuts are not some market-fu to get rid of competition. They usually look like this
Laz0rBeam II - 288 - 4,522,999.86 ISK Laz0rBeam II - 540 - 4,522,999.85 ISK Laz0rBeam II - 351 - 4,522,999.84 ISK [normal market logic stops here] Laz0rBeam II - 2 - 3,500,000 ISK [a non-trader just trying to sell their extra crap, order usually clears in 2-3 hours] Laz0rBeam II - 434 - 3,499,999.99 [Moron]
If you don't get it, someone drops the price by a lot because they don't use the market, then a normal trader who seems to not pay attention decides to ruin it for everyone by putting some massive quantity on the market for a lot less instead of waiting an hour for that stuff to sell..
Continuing on this, the number of people that undercut orders 20j away (15j of which are lowsec) is baffling.
Originally by: Nai Ling
Originally by: Rawr Cristina
Originally by: Stargazer Monk I keep dropping 1m at a time
If there's anything worse than .1 undercutters, it's people who undercut by MORE than .1 and ruin profits for everyone
Undercutters don't bother me much, really. What really grinds my gears are the people that sell manufactured items for less than the mineral cost of them. Such as cruisers and frigates, and sometimes Battleships. If I had tons of disposable ISK, I would love to make a profit off those people. :(
"If I mine it myself it's free!!!!!!!!!!" logic.
Or they just had a better researched BP so they can sell it cheaper and still make profit And now I need to take a 5 minute nap before I have the energy to post again. |
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Kokura Nin
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Posted - 2009.09.07 06:33:00 -
[21]
That really doesnt apply to modules. And it also doesnt apply to luxury items.
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Ikar Kaltin
Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.07 08:34:00 -
[22]
I remember reading something a few months back about macro trade order adjusters in Jita. People selling large volumes and continuously updating their orders whilst they arent there, could be that you have found some of these who are auto-adjusting to undercut you.
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Memphis Baas
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Posted - 2009.09.07 08:51:00 -
[23]
At some point someone will buy your 1 item, but the reason they aren't doing it immediately could also be because they don't know if they can sell at that price. Just because it's up for sale doesn't mean it sells.
But yeah, the situation described sounds like bots, and you ARE manipulating the market in that station.
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
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Posted - 2009.09.07 08:51:00 -
[24]
Undercut wars are won by selling at a loss, pure win. Err loss.
Win a Wyvern mothership for 10M ISK |
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Thornat
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Posted - 2009.09.07 10:23:00 -
[25]
My favorite thing in the whole world of Eve is under cutters. I think if it wasn't for them I would be about a billion or so poorer.
Not that I see it as a problem, but if you we are speaking theoretically and undercutting was actually considered a problem I would say three things account for it.
First, already mentioned are the bidding bots. Probably the worse coded programs you will ever find, in fact I would consider them viruses more than anything else.
Second, product differentiation. In the real world, an Afterburner II would come in various qualities made by different makers who earn reputations that allow them to sell for more and people still buy them as well as things like product recognition (why buy an IPOD when there are other MP3 players that are just as good?). In Eve no such thing exists, an Afterburner II is an Afterburner II, its quality and who its maker is has no relevance at all, itĘs all about price. Therefore the only competitive action a player can take is to lower their price or sell somewhere else.
Finally, patience. Generally most people that play Eve play it as a game, hence the patience required to run a real (or even virtual business) like Eve is simply not there and rightfully so, as there are so many competitors all selling the same thing, that waiting and hoping that someone sells all their products so that your products are next in line is foolish (someone will simply come along and sell more).
Under cutterĘs actually make the whole economy function in a more realistic manner, as they create the sense of Supply and Demand. The more suppliers there are and the higher the demand, the lower the price. Anytime this balance is off, the price goes up. This is why in 0.0 space for example you can sell things at obscene prices (sold a Helios for 70 million yesterday), while in a place like Jita you canĘt even get back what it costs to make a Helios. Its worth noting to that places like Jita where undercutting is basically a way of life, is a great place to purchase supplies, fly them somewhere else where there is less supply and sell them for higher price (hence creating a whole other part to a realistic economy ą aka import/export).
So on the behalf of everyone in Eve, Thank you Bidding Bots and thank you Under cutters for making me rich as hell!
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2009.09.07 10:51:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Stargazer Monk Edited by: Stargazer Monk on 06/09/2009 05:24:31 Anybody ever play with these guys? At the moment I am playing with about 7 of these guys on the market with an item that is (was) worth close to 100m. Keeping in mind I am selling 1 of said item to their stacks of them, I have got them to reduce the price by 10 mill (?!) so far over a couple days. I keep dropping 1m at a time and they all follow while undercutting each other by 1 isk. I am selling the item for far less than its worth but I don't mind, I want to see how far they will follow me lol. This kind of mentality of chasing a 1 item seller on the market by the sellers has always puzzled me, It's not very profitable for them to do so yet they see it as some kind of competition. Well here's hoping no one buys the item so I can keep going.
ROFL as the people still doing profit undercutting you they win, if your price drop is below profitable they just buy your stuff and resell it.
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Snasty
Caldari The Hippies House of Mercury
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Posted - 2009.09.07 12:44:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Robert Caldera
Originally by: Stargazer Monk Edited by: Stargazer Monk on 06/09/2009 05:24:31 Anybody ever play with these guys? At the moment I am playing with about 7 of these guys on the market with an item that is (was) worth close to 100m. Keeping in mind I am selling 1 of said item to their stacks of them, I have got them to reduce the price by 10 mill (?!) so far over a couple days. I keep dropping 1m at a time and they all follow while undercutting each other by 1 isk. I am selling the item for far less than its worth but I don't mind, I want to see how far they will follow me lol. This kind of mentality of chasing a 1 item seller on the market by the sellers has always puzzled me, It's not very profitable for them to do so yet they see it as some kind of competition. Well here's hoping no one buys the item so I can keep going.
ROFL as the people still doing profit undercutting you they win, if your price drop is below profitable they just buy your stuff and resell it.
This..^^^
As a trader of some sucsess I find the notion that you are "playing" with them amusing.
In market chicken, the biggest wallet wins, end of....
--------------------------------------- -=Snasty, short for Shagnasty ever since the GM's in SWG made me change it...!=- |
Nova Fox
Gallente Novafox Shipyards
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Posted - 2009.09.07 14:06:00 -
[28]
yeah it annoys me sometimes do when im not trying to mind the market make some cash and do more of my designs but these guys undercut me well below regional average. Normally I wait them out but when or better yet buy them out and resell thier stuff espeically if they hit that point of the amount of materials the items they're cut throating each other for is more valuable than they are hawking each other at. Pre-order your Sisters of ≡v≡ Exploration ship today, Updated 1SEP09
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Scout Ops
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Posted - 2009.10.02 18:58:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Verx Interis Edited by: Verx Interis on 07/09/2009 05:17:02 The majority of large undercuts are not some market-fu to get rid of competition. They usually look like this
Laz0rBeam II - 288 - 4,522,999.86 ISK Laz0rBeam II - 540 - 4,522,999.85 ISK Laz0rBeam II - 351 - 4,522,999.84 ISK [normal market logic stops here] Laz0rBeam II - 2 - 3,500,000 ISK [a non-trader just trying to sell their extra crap, order usually clears in 2-3 hours] Laz0rBeam II - 434 - 3,499,999.99 [Moron]
If you don't get it, someone drops the price by a lot because they don't use the market, then a normal trader who seems to not pay attention decides to ruin it for everyone by putting some massive quantity on the market for a lot less instead of waiting an hour for that stuff to sell..
Continuing on this, the number of people that undercut orders 20j away (15j of which are lowsec) is baffling.
Originally by: Nai Ling
Originally by: Rawr Cristina
Originally by: Stargazer Monk I keep dropping 1m at a time
If there's anything worse than .1 undercutters, it's people who undercut by MORE than .1 and ruin profits for everyone
Undercutters don't bother me much, really. What really grinds my gears are the people that sell manufactured items for less than the mineral cost of them. Such as cruisers and frigates, and sometimes Battleships. If I had tons of disposable ISK, I would love to make a profit off those people. :(
"If I mine it myself it's free!!!!!!!!!!" logic.
Verx for president
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Kiva Aharan
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Posted - 2009.10.02 19:28:00 -
[30]
Yeah. That's one of my favorite past times.
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