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More Rep Drones than last year, is this a smart move?

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XFreedomX	Posted - 2009.09.08 18:44:00 - [1] I noticed more use of repair drones then last year. Probably due the the single logistic format, alot of teams are using them to keep that ship alive. My question is, is this a smart move, they don't seem that effective? Isn't ECM drones or DPS drones better at damage reduction?
EdFromHumanResources Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.09.08 19:29:00 - [2] I think in our match specifically rep drones were the smart move. They very very definitely saved our logistics ship.
Juni d'Aemon Gallente Strc Prst Skrz Krk	Posted - 2009.09.08 20:17:00 - [3] The team fielding a logistic ship shall be hereafter defined as fail. Unless it's Goons (as they were the only ones to get it right).
Deja Thoris Invicta. Advocated Destruction	Posted - 2009.09.09 00:47:00 - [4] Originally by: Juni d'Aemon Edited by: Juni d''Aemon on 08/09/2009 23:07:16 The team fielding a logistic ship in AT7 shall be hereafter defined as fail. Unless it's Goons (as they were the only ones to get it right). EDIT: After watching their fight again, I retract the second part of the statement above; even Goons had it wrong. Also, to support my statement with a reasoning: 1. In the tournament, the thing that matters most is to remove as much of opponents dps faster than he can do the same to you. Logistic makes this much harder (or prevents this altogether) and therefore should be always primarized (jamming it is not good enough). 2. Logistic ships is usually the weakest link in the team (who heals the healer?). 3. There are no good passive tanks for a logistic ship (100k ehp at most). 4. There are no good speed/range tanks for a logistic ship (as you're basically gambling that the opponent brings a bad setup to the fight) 5. There is just one good active group-tank for a logistic ship, which can sustain over 2k dps for a brief period (and most of the good opposing setups will have more damage than that anyway) Hence, you can safely assume that your logistic will die before it will be able to help your team, and not waste good 12 points on a dead ship. This also answers the repair drones question - unless you're able to build an unbreakable group-tank, you might want to take EW or damage drones instead. EW drones definately have utility. However, unlike "real" pvp most teams have realised this and it only takes a volley or two of smart bombs to clear the field of the pesky things. This works well in the tourney but not outside Jita 4-4 in a war! It's well worth a marginally gimped setup on at least 1 or 2 ships just to cater for that eventuality. I disagree about the no good passive setups for logi ships, theres one or two that spring to mind immediately that strike a nice balance between difficulty to kill and repairing usefulness. The ubiquitous EHP does not tell the full story here as theres a lot more to killing a ship than just its EHP. On to repair drones, useful critters and with the correct micro management they will not get smartbombed, the opposing team also has to spend a disproportionate amount of effort to lock and kill the damn things too, this while they may be being shot by ships that hurt, making the wisdom of shooting them questionable.
Issler Dainze Minmatar Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord	Posted - 2009.09.09 03:03:00 - [5] We counted heavily on rep drones. To be honest we were scrambling to put a team together and we knew they were a gamble. I don't think they worked for us as we were not prepared to for the ECM we encountered so they largely flew around to no real purpose. So for us, not so much, Issler
Tyrrax Thorrk Amarr Guiding Hand Social Club Dystopia Alliance	Posted - 2009.09.09 03:13:00 - [6] you can pretty easily make a basilisk setup that permatanks over 2200 dps with a vulture (and some cap xfer, which said vulture can provide) and it's still able to do its logistic job, but i prefer to have it tank a bit less and ab around with tiny sig radius (making missiles pretty useless vs it)
Flaglagl	Posted - 2009.09.09 03:44:00 - [7] Honestly OP's question really depends mostly on your setup, and your opponent's setup. As was mentioned in another post (Goons, I think), rep drones can work really really well; other times, not so much. I don't think it can be said that one type of drone is more effective than another -- Logistics drones keep your ** up a bit longer, ECM drones get some jam cycles in here and there, and combat drones can tear up light support (i.e., the Assault Frigates that seem so popular this tournament). Just kind of depends on both teams' setups. Originally by:** Tyrrax Thorrk you can pretty easily make a basilisk setup that permatanks over 2200 dps with a vulture (and some cap xfer, which said vulture can provide) and it's still able to do its logistic job, but i prefer to have it tank a bit less and ab around with tiny sig radius (making missiles pretty useless vs it) Honestly, a missile-based team (even Heavy Missiles) without at least SOME target painting is probably a lolteam. Then again, your Basilisk lasted a really long time in Round 1 iirc, so you obviously know how to fit them.
Veldya Guristari Freedom Fighters	Posted - 2009.09.09 03:46:00 - [8] I think they are a waste of time, unless your whole setup is low dps and heavy non-buffer tanking which can hold up long enough for the drones to do much. They are fairly easy to take out if you have a tackler loaded with smartbombs. The most effective drones I have seen used are sentries as they avoid getting frogstomped by SBs and have a much greater uptime as they don't really need to travel. Mind you, it does mean you have to deploy close to have the range on the enemy.
Veldya Guristari Freedom Fighters	Posted - 2009.09.09 04:14:00 - [9] Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk you can pretty easily make a basilisk setup that permatanks over 2200 dps with a vulture (and some cap xfer, which said vulture can provide) and it's still able to do its logistic job, but i prefer to have it tank a bit less and ab around with tiny sig radius (making missiles pretty useless vs it) Can you give a setup for a basilisk that can tank over 2k, I haven't seen one that comes remotely close while being able to still do a reasonable logistic job. I am more curious than an unbeliever.
Kayak Attack	Posted - 2009.09.09 14:19:00 - [10] Originally by: Juni d'Aemon Edited by: Juni d''Aemon on 08/09/2009 23:07:16 The team fielding a logistic ship in AT7 shall be hereafter defined as fail. Unless it's Goons (as they were the only ones to get it right). EDIT: After watching their fight again, I retract the second part of the statement above; even Goons had it wrong. Also, to support my statement with a reasoning: 1. In the tournament, the thing that matters most is to remove as much of opponents dps faster than he can do the same to you. Logistic makes this much harder (or prevents this altogether) and therefore should be always primarized (jamming it is not good enough). 2. Logistic ships is usually the weakest link in the team (who heals the healer?). 3. There are no good passive tanks for a logistic ship (100k ehp at most). 4. There are no good speed/range tanks for a logistic ship (as you're basically gambling that the opponent brings a bad setup to the fight) 5. There is just one good active group-tank for a logistic ship, which can sustain over 2k dps for a brief period (and most of the good opposing setups will have more damage than that anyway) Hence, you can safely assume that your logistic will die before it will be able to help your team, and not waste good 12 points on a dead ship. This also answers the repair drones question - unless you're able to build an unbreakable group-tank, you might want to take EW or damage drones instead. you can fit t3 cruisers with RR. so....THEY heal...the healers?

Larg Kellein Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2009.09.09 16:51:00 - [11] Originally by: Kayak Attack you can fit t3 cruisers with RR. so....THEY heal...the healers? Not so much, as you can only bring either a logistics fitted t3, or a logistics fitted Logistics ship.
Nol Agnot Nightwatch Immortal	Posted - 2009.09.09 19:36:00 - [12] Edited by: Nol Agnot on 09/09/2009 19:38:11 Originally by: Larg Kellein Originally by: Kayak Attack you can fit t3 cruisers with RR. so....THEY heal...the healers? Not so much, as you can only bring either a logistics fitted t3, or a logistics fitted Logistics ship. I must've missed that in the rules, where does it state only those two ships can be the repping ship? Ah damn, found it, sucks to be you flying in this prohibition fest. Next up to nerf EW... Delenda est achura.
Tyrrax Thorrk Amarr Guiding Hand Social Club Dystopia Alliance	Posted - 2009.09.09 23:35:00 - [13] Edited by: Tyrrax Thorrk on 09/09/2009 23:44:36 Originally by: Veldya Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk you can pretty easily make a basilisk setup that permatanks over 2200 dps with a vulture (and some cap xfer, which said vulture can provide) and it's still able to do its logistic job, but i prefer to have it tank a bit less and ab around with tiny sig radius (making missiles pretty useless vs it) Can you give a setup for a basilisk that can tank over 2k, I haven't seen one that comes remotely close while being able to still do a reasonable logistic job. I am more curious than an unbeliever. [Basilisk] Reactor Control Unit II Damage Control II X-Large C5-L Emergency Shield Overload I Invulnerability Field II Shield Boost Amplifier II Shield Boost Amplifier II Photon Scattering Field II Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large 'Regard' I Power Projector [empty high slot] [empty high slot] Core Defence Operational Solidifier I Core Defence Operational Solidifier I Light Shield Maintenance Bot II x5 + max skill vulture = 2039 dps tanked (need 2 large regard cap xfer on it to run everything at once) 3000 tanked if you overheat all your meds 2 remote sensor booster II make it damp invulnerable (locks at 50 km with 4 max skill keres damps on it) 5 remote eccm II and you have 252 sensor strength kinda gay to fly without an AB tho so i'd generally tank less for the added missile resistance / maneuverability Don't think it's possible to paint you enough to take full dmg unless you're webbed too, or not moving.. Edit; 4 max skill Huginn/Golem painter II will give you 294 sig radius, so a max skill non-implanted tengu will do 68% dmg to you if you're moving full speed (without overheating ab) , golems / widows / ravens etc will do much less, and obviously you're not very likely to have painting of that quality/quantity, cerbs and nighthawks would do a little more dmg [Basilisk, Tournament 7] Reactor Control Unit II Internal Force Field Array I Invulnerability Field II Y-S8 Hydrocarbon I Afterburners X-Large Shield Booster II Shield Boost Amplifier II 'Anointed' I EM Ward Reinforcement Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large 'Regard' I Power Projector [empty high slot] [empty high slot] Core Defence Operational Solidifier I Core Defence Operational Solidifier I Warrior II x5 i used this setup last match, and our eos was using info mindlink (but still 3 shield gang mods, so only 15% bonus each) only tanked 1307 dps, but went 553 m/s with 98 sig radius (faster if you overheat ab)
Galyrion Alcatraz Inc. Tactical Narcotics Team	Posted - 2009.09.10 10:47:00 - [14] "5. There is just one good active group-tank for a logistic ship, which can sustain over 2k dps for a brief period (and most of the good opposing setups will have more damage than that anyway)" When u add ecm to the mix this is not allways the case. Keeping the logistics ship alive is probably the toughest task during these fights, hence teams try to do that in diffrent ways. Bring more ecm, logistics drones or field a t3 cruiser with logistics subsystems as its not as obvious it will be the linchpin from the start.
Hey You Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2009.09.10 11:48:00 - [15] Edited by: Hey You on 10/09/2009 11:49:18 this is good logistic ship and pilot. Linky It arguably bagged win for Goodfellas.
SerenetyCode	Posted - 2009.09.10 11:59:00 - [16] I think it's quite a fine move. The battle's take longer so there will be more fun. So people stop complaining. greetz..
Veldya Guristari Freedom Fighters	Posted - 2009.09.10 13:31:00 - [17] Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk [Basilisk] Reactor Control Unit II Damage Control II X-Large C5-L Emergency Shield Overload I Invulnerability Field II Shield Boost Amplifier II Shield Boost Amplifier II Photon Scattering Field II Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large 'Regard' I Power Projector [empty high slot] [empty high slot] Core Defence Operational Solidifier I Core Defence Operational Solidifier I Light Shield Maintenance Bot II x5 + max skill vulture = 2039 dps tanked (need 2 large regard cap xfer on it to run everything at once) 3000 tanked if you overheat all your meds 2 remote sensor booster II make it damp invulnerable (locks at 50 km with 4 max skill keres damps on it) 5 remote eccm II and you have 252 sensor strength Thanks for that, I forgot to factor in the Vulture effects. Quote: i used this setup last match, and our eos was using info mindlink (but still 3 shield gang mods, so only 15% bonus each) only tanked 1307 dps, but went 553 m/s with 98 sig radius (faster if you overheat ab) woulda been 1650 dps tanked (2463 overheated) if we'd gone with a vulture instead of eos, but ofc then our ECM would've been weaker Hmmm, mindlink as in the implant? I thought implants other than stat implants where not allowed in the tourney.
TeaDaze Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2009.09.10 14:06:00 - [18] Originally by: Veldya Hmmm, mindlink as in the implant? I thought implants other than stat implants where not allowed in the tourney. Hardwirings are allowed and mindlinks fall into that category. My interpretation of the rules are that only implant slots 1-5 have restrictions (learning attribute implants only, no pirate sets). However the GMs do check every ship and pilot and so far people trying to bring invalid implants or modules have had them destroyed before the match started...
Veldya Guristari Freedom Fighters	Posted - 2009.09.10 15:26:00 - [19] Edited by: Veldya on 10/09/2009 15:28:47 Originally by: TeaDaze Originally by: Veldya Hmmm, mindlink as in the implant? I thought implants other than stat implants where not allowed in the tourney. Hardwirings are allowed and mindlinks fall into that category. My interpretation of the rules are that only implant slots 1-5 have restrictions (learning attribute implants only, no pirate sets). However the GMs do check every ship and pilot and so far people trying to bring invalid implants or modules have had them destroyed before the match started... Ahh, yes, hardwirings are allowable.
The Ratfink	Posted - 2009.09.12 08:34:00 - [20] Edited by: The Ratfink on 12/09/2009 08:34:58 Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk [Basilisk] Reactor Control Unit II Damage Control II X-Large C5-L Emergency Shield Overload I Invulnerability Field II Shield Boost Amplifier II Shield Boost Amplifier II Photon Scattering Field II Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large 'Regard' I Power Projector [empty high slot] [empty high slot] Core Defence Operational Solidifier I Core Defence Operational Solidifier I No wonder you died horribly That LOGISTICS ship only has 22/30 sensor stregnth. A single jammer from a rook will take that ship out of the match 50% of the time! Then it's tank is useless For someone that constantly berates setups, you don't think much yourself

ookke TourneySwarm Blanket Men	Posted - 2009.09.12 08:43:00 - [21] Originally by: The Ratfink That LOGISTICS ship only has 22/30 sensor stregnth. A single jammer from a rook will take that ship out of the match 50% of the time! Then it's tank is useless For someone that constantly berates setups, you don't think much yourself Ever heard of Remote ECCM?
The Ratfink	Posted - 2009.09.12 08:58:00 - [22] Originally by: ookke Originally by: The Ratfink That LOGISTICS ship only has 22/30 sensor stregnth. A single jammer from a rook will take that ship out of the match 50% of the time! Then it's tank is useless For someone that constantly berates setups, you don't think much yourself Ever heard of Remote ECCM? from an iteron mark 5?
Tyrrax Thorrk Amarr Guiding Hand Social Club Dystopia Alliance	Posted - 2009.09.12 09:42:00 - [23] had remote eccm and remote sensor boosting from Eos, Itty 5 and Cormorant (252 strength on basilisk, 50 km lockrange with 4 max skill keres damps applied) i'm pretty sure we would've won if eos hadn't drifted/gotten bumped out of cap xfer range of my basilisk


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