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[Issue] Loot-thiefing versus Scavenging

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Tortugan Internal Anarchy	Posted - 2009.09.11 02:32:00 - [1] Overview: Currently, when fighting in heavily populated areas (whether that be in high-security trade hubs, or 0.0 POS-bash blobs), the loot often goes to the person with the fastest internet connection who is LEAST involved in the fight (since they can focus on snatch & grabbing loot while the people fighting have to pay attention to their own ships). Issue: The players risking their ships in PVP combat (or PVE for that matter) are often missing out on rewards that should go to them. Proposed Solution: A short timer (the length to be determined by CCP- probably around 1 minute, to coincide with the aggression timer) should be introduced. This timer starts as soon as a ship- player or NPC is destroyed. During this timer, the only people who can loot from the wreck are those in the corporation of the player who gave the final blow, or those in the corporation of the player who's ship was lost. After that appr 1 minute timer, the wreck is fair game. All the while, the same looting aggression mechanics are in play. (I do think that looting the wreck of a ship I've destroyed should flag the looter to me- but that's for another thread) Summary: A kills B. For the first 1 minute, the only people who can loot B's wreck are members of A's corporation or B's corporation. That way, we still allow scavengers to loot & salvage- but the people who went through the trouble to kill the thing get first dibs. :D
De'Veldrin Minmatar Special Projects Executive	Posted - 2009.09.11 02:33:00 - [2] No. Learn to salvage faster. --Vel
darius mclever	Posted - 2009.09.11 02:38:00 - [3] no. the wreck is owned by the person who died. so logically you should limit the looting time to them and their corp. not you. once ccp also gives you some kind of ownership (which implies loot thieves get flagged towards you), the timer would also block you. that said ... i dont want to wait 1minute to loot, when the scout already shouts "reinforcements incoming" => not supported.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre	Posted - 2009.09.11 02:41:00 - [4] Why the #### would someone be interested in the loot in the context of a massive pvp blobb in 0.0/low sec? Hell I'd be more interested in surviving the damn fight... I seriously doubt anyone is going to be interested in loot in a fight such as that. And in case you forgot... THERE ARE NO BLOODY RULES OR MECHANICS TO STOP YOU FROM SHOOTING BACK REGARDLESS! Now in high sec? It already exsists... its called "can tipping" (wreck == can) Salvage? Its been clearly indicated by CCP that wrecks are free for all.. even if stealing the wrecks are considered theft to the majority of the population. All this mechanic is doing is making something a hell of alot more complicated than it is. And in 0.0... its pointless... as you can do whatever the hell you want when it pleases you. Low Sec.. same thing... just get dinged by sec hits. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
Tortugan Internal Anarchy	Posted - 2009.09.11 02:45:00 - [5] Originally by: De'Veldrin No. Learn to salvage faster. This proposal was referring to looting- not salvaging. Originally by: darius mclever no. the wreck is owned by the person who died. so logically you should limit the looting time to them and their corp. not you. once ccp also gives you some kind of ownership (which implies loot thieves get flagged towards you), the timer would also block you. that said ... i dont want to wait 1minute to loot, when the scout already shouts "reinforcements incoming" => not supported. Not sure I understand- so basically, you're saying that because under the current mechanic, the wreck is flagged as owned by the corp who lost it, you don't think it should be flagged to the corp who kills it for 1 minute? I can respect that- under the current mechanic, it wouldn't make sense- but I'm arguing also that the wreck should be flagged as owned by both the killed's corporation AND the killer's corporation. If that mechanic were to be changed, would you support this proposal? Originally by: Drake Draconis Why the #### would someone be interested in the loot in the context of a massive pvp blobb in 0.0/low sec? Hell I'd be more interested in surviving the damn fight... I seriously doubt anyone is going to be interested in loot in a fight such as that. And in case you forgot... THERE ARE NO BLOODY RULES OR MECHANICS TO STOP YOU FROM SHOOTING BACK REGARDLESS! Now in high sec? It already exsists... its called "can tipping" (wreck == can) Salvage? Its been clearly indicated by CCP that wrecks are free for all.. even if stealing the wrecks are considered theft to the majority of the population. All this mechanic is doing is making something a hell of alot more complicated than it is. And in 0.0... its pointless... as you can do whatever the hell you want when it pleases you. Low Sec.. same thing... just get dinged by sec hits. Specifically, there is nothing stopping a random passerby from taking your hard-earned loot. The problem is most prevalent in high-sec -where I can kill something, open the wreck immediately, only to find that the loot has already been taken by whoever had a better connection than me. Should the people involved in the fight not get first dibs on the loot? (again- we're talking loot, not salvage) :D
darius mclever	Posted - 2009.09.11 02:51:00 - [6] under no circumstance i would support it. i just had lots of fun looting wrecks in lowsec from people chasing each around around in a few systems :D they even tried to shoot me from time to time. speedy punisher for the win^^
Tortugan Internal Anarchy	Posted - 2009.09.11 02:56:00 - [7] Originally by: darius mclever under no circumstance i would support it. i just had lots of fun looting wrecks in lowsec from people chasing each around around in a few systems :D they even tried to shoot me from time to time. speedy punisher for the win^^ Prime example of why I made this proposal. If the wrecks are abandoned- sure, you're welcome to the loot- but to take from them in the heat of battle when other people are working for it just doesn't make sense. :D
darius mclever	Posted - 2009.09.11 02:59:00 - [8] well you get the right to shoot me to get your stuff back. must be enough.
Lunewraith Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2009.09.11 04:12:00 - [9] Originally by: Tortugan Originally by: darius mclever under no circumstance i would support it. i just had lots of fun looting wrecks in lowsec from people chasing each around around in a few systems :D they even tried to shoot me from time to time. speedy punisher for the win^^ Prime example of why I made this proposal. If the wrecks are abandoned- sure, you're welcome to the loot- but to take from them in the heat of battle when other people are working for it just doesn't make sense. If its a gang member doing this and not shooting an assigned target, he should be podded and kicked from his corp. If its someone else (neutral), shoot him if your that worried about it, as previously stated.
Tortugan Internal Anarchy	Posted - 2009.09.11 04:32:00 - [10] Originally by: Lunewraith Originally by: Tortugan Originally by: darius mclever under no circumstance i would support it. i just had lots of fun looting wrecks in lowsec from people chasing each around around in a few systems :D they even tried to shoot me from time to time. speedy punisher for the win^^ Prime example of why I made this proposal. If the wrecks are abandoned- sure, you're welcome to the loot- but to take from them in the heat of battle when other people are working for it just doesn't make sense. If its a gang member doing this and not shooting an assigned target, he should be podded and kicked from his corp. If its someone else (neutral), shoot him if your that worried about it, as previously stated. 1) I can't shoot him unless it was my corp member's ship that was looted- in other words, if I kill someone, and a random guy loots it, I'm NOT able to shoot him. 2) Even if I was able to shoot him, nothing would keep him from docking up, jumpimg out of system, or warping away before I had the chance to shoot him. :D

Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.09.11 08:58:00 - [11] Originally by: Tortugan Overview: blaaaaa no. Its not your stuff, its NPCs stuff and should be free to take for every player instantly. The only issue there is the NPC loot is assigned to any player at all.
Uronksur Suth Sankkasen Mining Conglomerate	Posted - 2009.09.11 19:27:00 - [12] /me laughs at Tortugan's whine about ninja loot/salvaging
Dav Varan	Posted - 2009.09.11 19:31:00 - [13] Edited by: Dav Varan on 11/09/2009 19:31:17 God no , too many rules with salvaging / looting allready, the last thing we need is more.
Tortugan Internal Anarchy	Posted - 2009.09.11 21:57:00 - [14] Originally by: Robert Caldera Originally by: Tortugan Overview: blaaaaa no. Its not your stuff, its NPCs stuff and should be free to take for every player instantly. The only issue there is the NPC loot is assigned to any player at all. Ok- but why should the wreck of something I've killed belong to someone else? If you went out hunting and shot a deer, would that deer go to you, or some random homeless guy who comes out of nowhere and grabs it before you can get to it? You'd want to at least be able to shoot the guy for being a douche, wouldn't you? :) :D
Srialia Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.09.11 22:07:00 - [15] No, it shouldn't belong to someone else, and it doesn't. It belongs to nobody. Now, certain kill rights may apply in systems with certain levels of security, but beyond that it's a "you snooze, you lose" situation. You can take steps to protect what you see as yours - just realize that the universe is harsh and cruel and if someone gets to "your" stuff first, it's up to you to respond. Don't expect the game to do your work for you.
Herschel Yamamoto Agent-Orange	Posted - 2009.09.11 22:14:00 - [16] I'm not going to flame like half the rest of the thread is doing, but I will say that locking the can is not the right solution. The only one I've ever heard that I like is the idea to flag the can to both killer and victim, but that's been brought to CCP and rejected IIRC. Preventing looting is a bad mechanic. No support.
Zeek Muaka Caldari Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.09.11 22:21:00 - [17] Lol @ people who didn't read it and assumed it's a ninja salvage whine. I do not support because I believe loot is first come, first serve. I DO however, believe that a thief should be flagged to the person that killed him. If any lag is thrown into the equation, that's called "CCP FIX T3H LAGZZ!" and they do seem to be doing a fairly good job with that.
Tortugan Internal Anarchy	Posted - 2009.09.11 22:29:00 - [18] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto I'm not going to flame like half the rest of the thread is doing, but I will say that locking the can is not the right solution. The only one I've ever heard that I like is the idea to flag the can to both killer and victim, but that's been brought to CCP and rejected IIRC. Preventing looting is a bad mechanic. No support. Originally by: Zeek Muaka Lol @ people who didn't read it and assumed it's a ninja salvage whine. I do not support because I believe loot is first come, first serve. I DO however, believe that a thief should be flagged to the person that killed him. If any lag is thrown into the equation, that's called "CCP FIX T3H LAGZZ!" and they do seem to be doing a fairly good job with that. Reasonable. Would you consider pairing this flagging with a 1 minute aggression timer during which the looter can't dock/jump? :D
Zeek Muaka Caldari Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.09.11 22:36:00 - [19] Originally by: Tortugan Reasonable. Would you consider pairing this flagging with a 1 minute aggression timer during which the looter can't dock/jump? No, because I don't really see the need for aggression just for removing something from a wreck or can. I do support a nerf of INTAN though.
Uronksur Suth Sankkasen Mining Conglomerate	Posted - 2009.09.11 23:13:00 - [20] Originally by: Tortugan Originally by: Robert Caldera Originally by: Tortugan Overview: blaaaaa no. Its not your stuff, its NPCs stuff and should be free to take for every player instantly. The only issue there is the NPC loot is assigned to any player at all. Ok- but why should the wreck of something I've killed belong to someone else? If you went out hunting and shot a deer, would that deer go to you, or some random homeless guy who comes out of nowhere and grabs it before you can get to it? You'd want to at least be able to shoot the guy for being a douche, wouldn't you? :) Um. No. If anything, all wreck ownership should be removed. Looting should be free-for-all, same as salvage.

Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.09.14 13:04:00 - [21] Originally by: Zeek Muaka Lol @ people who didn't read it and assumed it's a ninja salvage whine. lol @ people lacking perception skills for recognizing disguised whines. Flagging salvagers = boosting mission runners = begging for more ISK = WHINE
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2009.09.14 13:58:00 - [22] Just NO. The loot isn't the aggressor's. It belongs to the victim. If you have a problem with your internets connection I suggest you get that fixed or upgraded. This isn't a problem, much less a problem for CCP to fix.
Tortugan Internal Anarchy	Posted - 2009.09.14 21:28:00 - [23] Originally by: Robert Caldera Originally by: Zeek Muaka Lol @ people who didn't read it and assumed it's a ninja salvage whine. lol @ people lacking perception skills for recognizing disguised whines. Flagging salvagers = boosting mission runners = begging for more ISK = WHINE Except that this thread has NOTHING to do with salvaging- it's about looting. Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 14/09/2009 14:27:05 Just NO. The loot should not magically be flagged for the aggressor. Loot still belongs to the victim. If you have a problem with your internets connection I suggest you get that fixed or upgraded. Or if you want loot magically flagged for the killer then go to WoW. This isn't a problem, much less a problem for CCP to fix. Try saying that when you get looted out of several billion in faction/officer mods by a guy who had nothing to do with the fight- if it was so much as a corp-mate of the guy who lost the ship, I wouldn't mind- but I don't think it's fair that ANYONE can grab loot, and it becomes a game of who has the best connection. :D
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2009.09.14 23:31:00 - [24] It sounds like the problem is with your ISP. Get a better connection. Problem solved. The game shouldn't be changed because you have a crappy connection.
Uronksur Suth Sankkasen Mining Conglomerate	Posted - 2009.09.14 23:50:00 - [25] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 14/09/2009 14:27:05 Just NO. The loot should not magically be flagged for the aggressor. Loot still belongs to the victim. If you have a problem with your internets connection I suggest you get that fixed or upgraded. Or if you want loot magically flagged for the killer then go to WoW. This isn't a problem, much less a problem for CCP to fix. Try saying that when you get looted out of several billion in faction/officer mods by a guy who had nothing to do with the fight- if it was so much as a corp-mate of the guy who lost the ship, I wouldn't mind- but I don't think it's fair that ANYONE can grab loot, and it becomes a game of who has the best connection. When I saw the words, "I don't think its fair", I lol'ed so hard
Dante Vailatti Gallente Eleutherian Guard	Posted - 2009.09.15 00:10:00 - [26] Looting, sticky fingers, whatever. Low se? High Sec? 0 Sec? It dun matter. Creative salvage aquisition is a fun and quick way for new players who don't have the skills to be effective PvPers yet to have a little fun and excitement and make a few ISK without having to slog through endless missions or spend brain-numbing hours going through the basics of mining. And gal durn it, if the practice was good enough for the crew of Serenity, then it's good enough fer me. Burn the land, boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me. D. Vailatti Public Relations Technician


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