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haylockm	Posted - 2009.09.12 12:06:00 - [1] what do people think of the Nightmare Battleship? How much dose it cost also?
Cadius Vect CARDASSIANS	Posted - 2009.09.12 13:11:00 - [2] Edited by: Cadius Vect on 12/09/2009 13:16:14 Edited by: Cadius Vect on 12/09/2009 13:15:07 Nightmares are best served as a pimped out mission runner, they would make an exceptional PvP boat or sniper but due to their cost(around 1 billion isk this is unpractical) They work best with tachyon beam lasers to make the best use of the 100% turret damage bonus and should have a minimum of 4 heat sinks a tracking computer, then a shield tank using a Pith A-type med shield booster and crystal implants keeping the need for capacitor mods to an absolute minimum, or a bust tank with an XL booster. Due to their huge damage potential, they can compete with the paladin for mission completion times(but with less ability to salvage during the mission although it can be done) for missions where the rats are weak to EM/Therm damage but for anything else they will be surpassed by a torp golem. Just think of it as a marauder than needs less SP less than an actual marauder to fly. ----------------------------------------------------------- Killboard: http://www.battleclinic.com/eve_online/pk/view/player-Cadius+Vect-kills.html
Sabriele Amarr Department of Defence Prismatic Refraction	Posted - 2009.09.12 13:19:00 - [3] It is awesome. Basically a T1 cross-trained marauder. Shield tanked and uses lasers, half as many hardpoints but 100% increase to damage. So basically that gives you a ton more cap to work with, as well as a few spare slots for neuts/vamps. Goons showed how awesome it can be in pvp in the alliance tourney, but its cost and the fact you'd only really want to fit it with faction gear kinda makes it a bit risky to take into pvp combat.. Obviously if you have a ton of isk then go for it.. Oh and it costs around 1b for the ship, and then depending how l337 you want it, anywhere between 2b and 10b for mods.
Ancy Denaries Caldari The Confederate Navy Forever Unbound	Posted - 2009.09.12 15:46:00 - [4] Originally by: Sabriele So basically that gives you a ton more cap to work with Umm, no? All laser boats (with the exception of the Abaddon) gets a -50% cap usage at skill level 5 which is, essentially, the same as running 4 unbonused lasers, which the Nightmare does. So it doesn't give you oodles of cap to play with. It just uses as much as an Amarr BS at skill level 5. ----- Why doesn't anyone ever read the forums before posting? EVE is a game of adaptation and planning. Adapt or die.
Yarinor	Posted - 2009.09.12 16:08:00 - [5] you have to look at capacitor sizes and recharge rats when comparing this aswell.
Builder Robert	Posted - 2009.09.12 18:29:00 - [6] Originally by: Yarinor you have to look at capacitor sizes and recharge rats when comparing this aswell. And the nightmare has 1500 less cap than the apoc, it can however use two nosferatu.
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2009.09.12 19:03:00 - [7] Originally by: Builder Robert Originally by: Yarinor you have to look at capacitor sizes and recharge rats when comparing this aswell. And the nightmare has 1500 less cap than the apoc, it can however use two nosferatu. Nightmare is getting an extra 1000ish cap and some other slight stat tweaks with the pirate ship reworking. Its going to be even better at spamming missions now. Nightmare: òHitpoints: 9735 shields, 8695 armor, 8260 hull òCapacitor: 6950 capacitor, 1154.845s recharge (about 6.02 cap/s) òSensor: 80km targeting range, 7 locked targets, 100mm scan resolution, 28 radar sensor strength, 400m signature radius Quote: [03:39:05] Emperor Salazar > HOLY **** ITS ZEBA [03:39:20] Emperor Salazar > NEVER STOP POASTING Zeba is the BEST! ~Mitnal
James Vayne	Posted - 2009.09.12 19:49:00 - [8] Originally by: Cadius Vect Edited by: Cadius Vect on 12/09/2009 13:16:36 Nightmares are best served as a pimped out mission runner, they would make an exceptional PvP boat or sniper but due to their cost(around 1 billion isk this is unpractical) They work best with tachyon beam lasers to make the best use of the 100% turret damage bonus and should have a minimum of 4 heat sinks a tracking computer, then a shield tank using a Pith A-type med shield booster and crystal implants keeping the need for capacitor mods to an absolute minimum, or a bust tank with an XL booster. Due to their huge damage potential, they can compete with the paladin for mission completion times(but with less ability to salvage during the mission although it can be done) for missions where the rats are weak to EM/Therm damage but for anything else they will be surpassed by a torp golem. Just think of it as a marauder than needs less SP less than an actual marauder to fly. If you're paying a billion isk for your nightmares you're in the wrong system.
Manu Hermanus FaDoyToy	Posted - 2009.09.12 22:04:00 - [9] Edited by: Manu Hermanus on 12/09/2009 22:05:05 Originally by: Cadius Vect Edited by: Cadius Vect on 12/09/2009 13:16:36 Nightmares are best served as a pimped out mission runner, they would make an exceptional PvP boat or sniper but due to their cost(around 1 billion isk this is unpractical) They work best with tachyon beam lasers to make the best use of the 100% turret damage bonus and should have a minimum of 4 heat sinks a tracking computer, then a shield tank using a Pith A-type med shield booster and crystal implants keeping the need for capacitor mods to an absolute minimum, or a bust tank with an XL booster. Due to their huge damage potential, they can compete with the paladin for mission completion times(but with less ability to salvage during the mission although it can be done) for missions where the rats are weak to EM/Therm damage but for anything else they will be surpassed by a torp golem. Just think of it as a marauder than needs less SP less than an actual marauder to fly. if you are using a pithum a-type medium shield booster you hardly need a crystal set Originally by: James Vayne If you're paying a billion isk for your nightmares you're in the wrong system. they got up over a billion isk for a while, but they came back down a bit.
Kzintee Caldari	Posted - 2009.09.13 02:46:00 - [10] Originally by: haylockm what do people think of the Nightmare Battleship? How much dose it cost also? 1000DPS at 41km with very good tracking, what's not to like? Best against Sansha/Bloods, very good against mercs. Best served when you have both Caldari and Amarr BS to V and have fully trained gunnery skills. Otherwise stick to Raven hulls. I paid 800-900mil for mine a while ago and have never regretted it.

Builder Robert	Posted - 2009.09.14 23:18:00 - [11] Originally by: Kzintee Originally by: haylockm 1000DPS at 41km with very good tracking, what's not to like? Isn't that basically a torp golem that will have a heavier load on cap and worse resists, then? Less cargo, slower, more skill intensive..ah but they're the same price? Am I missing something?
Qui Shon	Posted - 2009.09.14 23:59:00 - [12] Edited by: Qui Shon on 14/09/2009 23:59:45 Originally by: Builder Robert Isn't that basically a torp golem that will have a heavier load on cap and worse resists, then? Less cargo, slower, more skill intensive..ah but they're the same price? Am I missing something? Yes, you are. Turrets work differently from launchers. They have advantages, and drawbacks. Sometimes it's considerably faster to use turrets.
Builder Robert	Posted - 2009.09.15 01:33:00 - [13] Originally by: Qui Shon Edited by: Qui Shon on 14/09/2009 23:59:45 Yes, you are. Turrets work differently from launchers. They have advantages, and drawbacks. Sometimes it's considerably faster to use turrets. I'm pretty new to all this but I see numbers thrown around all the time, I get 300 dps with a full rack of cruise missiles and 4 BCUs on my Raven, albeit with only 2.5 mil SP so 1000 dps is pretty out in space for me at the moment. It would be nice if you could tell me the advantages of Nightmare, looting wrecks wont be any quicker I'm sure of that, unless you use a second character to do that..perhaps not having to reload is nice but that is usually counted for when calculating dps and not having to worry about tracking is also nice on the Golem. What I mean is, from a purely mission running standpoint (i.e. get it over and done with as soon as possible), ignoring looks, preferred play style, weapon preferences etc. Why would someone pick a Nightmare over a Golem? I suppose you could get in a Nightmare much quicker but to fly it effectively you're going to have to train two races BS skills which I would say evens it out a little, also I doubt many people have both lasers and shield tanking skills trained on the same character before getting into a Sansha ship.
Kzintee Caldari	Posted - 2009.09.15 02:14:00 - [14] Originally by: Builder Robert I'm pretty new to all this but I see numbers thrown around all the time, I get 300 dps with a full rack of cruise missiles and 4 BCUs on my Raven, albeit with only 2.5 mil SP so 1000 dps is pretty out in space for me at the moment. It would be nice if you could tell me the advantages of Nightmare, looting wrecks wont be any quicker I'm sure of that, unless you use a second character to do that..perhaps not having to reload is nice but that is usually counted for when calculating dps and not having to worry about tracking is also nice on the Golem. What I mean is, from a purely mission running standpoint (i.e. get it over and done with as soon as possible), ignoring looks, preferred play style, weapon preferences etc. Why would someone pick a Nightmare over a Golem? I suppose you could get in a Nightmare much quicker but to fly it effectively you're going to have to train two races BS skills which I would say evens it out a little, also I doubt many people have both lasers and shield tanking skills trained on the same character before getting into a Sansha ship. A NM is for people who don't want to use Raven hulls or don't want to use missiles. The advantages of Golem are: -No need to crosstrain to Amarr -No need to train turrets. Golem is a natural progression from Caracal, Drake, Raven and CNR. -Tractor beams -Monster tank to a point of overtank -Selective damage output, always applying best damage Disadvantages of Golem -Faction torps needed -Training requirements, although it's not really THAT bad compared to any other high end ship. -Without TPs pretty bad against smaller targets. -Defender missiles Advantages of Nightmare -For turret pilots -Lower training requirements although to get best output you need BS V in both -It's vertical -It's not a Raven -Instant damage -No defender missiles -With good skills you ALWAYS hit -One-volley up to BCs. Disadvantages of Nightmare -Need 2 BS Vs to get the most out of it. This can be either an advantage or disadvantage. It actually opens up Carriers for both Amarr and Caldari. -No tractors. However, Blood/Sansha tend to orbit beyond 40km range anyway. That's really the gist of it. I have a dedicated salvager so tractors are not that important to me. As fast as you're killing stuff in both Golem and Raven, you're not going to be salvaging anything anyway. If you're a missile pilot, get a Golem, it's a one-fit all solution.
Kzintee Caldari	Posted - 2009.09.15 02:20:00 - [15] Originally by: Builder Robert Isn't that basically a torp golem that will have a heavier load on cap and worse resists, then? Less cargo, slower, more skill intensive..ah but they're the same price? Am I missing something? Edit: quote fail Resists don't matter when you're doing 1000DPS. Cap doesn't matter. My NM has 13 minutes of cap running hardeners and guns. I'm typically done way before I run out of cap. I'm not even talking about running the XLSB, that gets used on really heavy missions only. Skill intensive is a very subjective matter. If you're a turret pilot, you can get into NM with just BS1 in both Amarr/Caldari. Not that I would recommend it, but you can. You can't get into Golem until you have BS V. Cargo space: I don't salvage my missions in NM, that wastes too much time. When you're one-volleying everything up to BC and 3-volleying BSes, do you really have time to salvage everything up? Or to even tractor things into place? Most of Bloods/Sanshas orbit way the f@#$ out there anyway. And Guristas sometimes like to start at 100km. How's your tractor beam helping you out there, considering that you can't even reach them with torps until 70km. To each their own, I say.
Manu Hermanus FaDoyToy	Posted - 2009.09.15 03:17:00 - [16] Originally by: Builder Robert Edited by: Builder Robert on 15/09/2009 01:14:17 Originally by: haylockm 1000DPS at 41km with very good tracking, what's not to like? Isn't that basically a torp golem that will have a heavier load on cap and worse resists, then? Less cargo, slower, more skill intensive..ah but they're the same price? Am I missing something? Edit: quote fail kills frigs/cruisers on approach with lethal efficiency. can also do dps out to lock range. instant damage, no wasted volleys. and less skill intensive, doesn't require both bs 5s (cal bs 5, amarr bs 4 would be more then fine), no awu 5, although the tech 2 large lasers and max skills are a bit more intensive then just t2 torps and max support skills. dunno, it is close.
Loki Farseer Internal Anarchy	Posted - 2009.09.15 05:57:00 - [17] Nightmares are currently the nasty bastards or PVP. I love PVPing in mine. I also run lvl 5's in another nightmare set up for that. It kicks a$$ at both. Cost... As the snooty gentleman once said ...If you have to ask you can't afford it Being serious about 4.5-8.5 bil done sensibly for PVP... but the Skies the limit.
Lord CH0w Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2009.09.15 08:15:00 - [18] Originally by: Kzintee -Instant damage -One-volley up to BCs those are the real advantages of nightmare, rest is irrelevant as to the rest i will not comment this (for example: defenders dont destroy torps - they destroy cruise missiles - key is grouping but u do it anyway to 1 volley bcs and some cruiser hulls, blood riders use tracking disruptors as their ewar, and u dont need faction torps but t2 torps...figure the rest ;) )
Kzintee Caldari	Posted - 2009.09.15 21:56:00 - [19] Originally by: Lord CH0w Originally by: Kzintee -Instant damage -One-volley up to BCs those are the real advantages of nightmare, rest is irrelevant as to the rest i will not comment this (for example: defenders dont destroy torps - they destroy cruise missiles - key is grouping but u do it anyway to 1 volley bcs and some cruiser hulls, blood riders use tracking disruptors as their ewar, and u dont need faction torps but t2 torps...figure the rest ;) ) Didnt know about torps, have never flown a torp boat. Blood raiders use neuts as ewar, Sansha use TDs.
Manu Hermanus FaDoyToy	Posted - 2009.09.15 21:57:00 - [20] Originally by: Kzintee Originally by: Lord CH0w Originally by: Kzintee -Instant damage -One-volley up to BCs those are the real advantages of nightmare, rest is irrelevant as to the rest i will not comment this (for example: defenders dont destroy torps - they destroy cruise missiles - key is grouping but u do it anyway to 1 volley bcs and some cruiser hulls, blood riders use tracking disruptors as their ewar, and u dont need faction torps but t2 torps...figure the rest ;) ) Didnt know about torps, have never flown a torp boat. Blood raiders use neuts as ewar, Sansha use TDs. bloods td as well as neut

Kzintee Caldari	Posted - 2009.09.15 22:08:00 - [21] Originally by: Manu Hermanus bloods td as well as neut Been running missions against Bloods for a long time now and don't recall that happening. Oh well, it's not enough to bother me.
Edward Mungrelson	Posted - 2009.09.16 16:07:00 - [22] Originally by: Lord CH0w (for example: defenders dont destroy torps - they destroy cruise missiles - key is grouping but u do it anyway to 1 volley bcs and some cruiser hulls, I thought that if a torp was hit by a defender then it would lose damage proportionate to the % of health it lost?
Dodgy Past Amarr Lollipops for Rancors	Posted - 2009.09.16 17:19:00 - [23] Out of interest what skills would you need to make a nightmare significantly better than an Abaddon? I have 2 Abaddons that I use, a beam for most missions and a pulse for Angels. ATM T1 for lasers and T2 for everything else with some AWU, L4 for the gunnery support skills. I'm working on L4 for shield skills already for some PvP fits so not too worried about adding some extra there either. T2 drones with the support skills at L4 as well. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Builder Robert	Posted - 2009.09.16 17:51:00 - [24] Originally by: Kzintee Originally by: Builder Robert from a purely mission running standpoint (i.e. get it over and done with as soon as possible), ignoring looks, preferred play style, weapon preferences etc. Why would someone pick a Nightmare over a Golem? A NM is for people who don't want to use Raven hulls or don't want to use missiles. The advantages of Golem are: -No need to crosstrain to Amarr -No need to train turrets. Golem is a natural progression from Caracal, Drake, Raven and CNR. -Tractor beams -Monster tank to a point of overtank -Selective damage output, always applying best damage Disadvantages of Golem -Training requirements, although it's not really THAT bad compared to any other high end ship. -Without TPs pretty bad against smaller targets. -Defender missiles Advantages of Nightmare -Lower training requirements although to get best output you need BS V in both -Instant damage -No defender missiles -With good skills you ALWAYS hit -One-volley up to BCs. Disadvantages of Nightmare -Need 2 BS Vs to get the most out of it. This can be either an advantage or disadvantage. It actually opens up Carriers for both Amarr and Caldari. -No tractors. However, Blood/Sansha tend to orbit beyond 40km range anyway. Thank you, I will keep this in mind.
Kzintee Caldari	Posted - 2009.09.16 22:05:00 - [25] Originally by: Dodgy Past Out of interest what skills would you need to make a nightmare significantly better than an Abaddon? I have 2 Abaddons that I use, a beam for most missions and a pulse for Angels. ATM T1 for lasers and T2 for everything else with some AWU, L4 for the gunnery support skills. I'm working on L4 for shield skills already for some PvP fits so not too worried about adding some extra there either. T2 drones with the support skills at L4 as well. Well...Caldari BS for damage, Amarr BS for tracking...so you get the point. COnsidering that I haven't flown an Abaddon in a long time, here's my paper napkin math. Abby can't fit Tachs very well, so using 8 Mega beams t2 and 3 AN HSs, I EFT myself an 866DPS Abaddon with 30km optimal using AN MF. This is with Large lazer spec at 4. My NM fit (4 AN HSs, TrackEnh, TrackComp, 4x AN Tachs) gives me 41km optimal with AN MF and 1020DPS with better tracking (0.029 vs 0.019) This is using the exact same skills as if I were to fly both. Playing with EFT I see that dropping Caldari BS to 3 drops DPS to 930sh...so basically, given the same Amarr BS/turret skills the NM will always come out on top and will get only better with Caldari BS V. The other advantage of NM is really that it's designed for Tachs.
Loco Eve	Posted - 2009.09.17 03:20:00 - [26] come on now. what's to argue, everyone knows a optimal fitted fully skilled NM pilot blows the fully skilled optimal fitted Golem pilot away when it come to mission completion time.
Arthur Frayn V.O.F.L IRON CORE H E L I C O N	Posted - 2009.09.17 04:12:00 - [27] Originally by: Builder Robert Edited by: Builder Robert on 15/09/2009 01:14:17 Originally by: haylockm 1000DPS at 41km with very good tracking, what's not to like? Isn't that basically a torp golem that will have a heavier load on cap and worse resists, then? Less cargo, slower, more skill intensive..ah but they're the same price? Am I missing something? Edit: quote fail Torp Golem can't hit out to 150km with Javelins. Tachyon Nightmare with Aurora-L can.
Giannamichaels	Posted - 2009.09.17 08:22:00 - [28] Originally by: Arthur Frayn Originally by: Builder Robert Edited by: Builder Robert on 15/09/2009 01:14:17 Originally by: haylockm 1000DPS at 41km with very good tracking, what's not to like? Isn't that basically a torp golem that will have a heavier load on cap and worse resists, then? Less cargo, slower, more skill intensive..ah but they're the same price? Am I missing something? Edit: quote fail Torp Golem can't hit out to 150km with Javelins. Tachyon Nightmare with Aurora-L can. true your looking at a max range of 65km with torps on golem (javs) however i cant think of any mission other than worlds collide where you need to hit to over 90km or so
Qui Shon	Posted - 2009.09.17 08:31:00 - [29] Originally by: Giannamichaels true your looking at a max range of 65km with torps on golem (javs) however i cant think of any mission other than worlds collide where you need to hit to over 90km or so I can't think of any Sansha/Blood/Drone/Merc/EoM mission like that either, but Serp Spies qualifies for a need to lock and hit at 130km.
Arthur Frayn V.O.F.L IRON CORE H E L I C O N	Posted - 2009.09.17 08:31:00 - [30] Also since nobody has mentioned this, I can confirm to the op that the Nightmare is in fact, BS. -- Eventus stultorum magister.



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