| Pages: 1 :: [one page] |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
deathscyth76
Caldari
Rukongai
   |
Posted - 2009.09.15 22:32:00 -
[1]
I know I'm a little late on the tear-boat, but -
Why was Native Linux-Support taken from EVE?
Some of us would like to play at work, and only PRETEND to be fixing things.
Just a curious-capsuleer, today.
Thankya!
-------------
"Just put down the laser, Give me all your ISKies - And everyone walks out alive. |
Solbright
Advanced Security And Asset Protection
|
Posted - 2009.09.16 02:01:00 -
[2]
Holy crap! I hope you don't feel the Mac has a better deal?
I can assure you Eve works far better on Wine than Transgaming's solutions.
-----
The Eve Client - A Love Story - The single biggest fix CCP ever did to Eve. Keep it up! |
Solbright
Advanced Security And Asset Protection
|
Posted - 2009.09.16 02:08:00 -
[3]
That is, of course, why CCP stopped funding Transgaming to support Linux - because most everyone on Linux was using Wine anyway. It wasn't that hard to read between the lines of the announcement.
-----
The Eve Client - A Love Story - The single biggest fix CCP ever did to Eve. Keep it up! |
Xianthar
STK Scientific
The Initiative.
|
Posted - 2009.09.16 03:16:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: deathscyth76
I know I'm a little late on the tear-boat, but -
Why was Native Linux-Support taken from EVE?
Some of us would like to play at work, and only PRETEND to be fixing things.
Just a curious-capsuleer, today.
Thankya!
Eve never had and likely never will have native linux support. The "official" client was the windows client with a transgaming wrapper.
Transgaming came about by taking the source from wine and adding improved Direct X support at a time when wine's support was terribad. Since Direct X is actively supported in wine now there really isn't much reason for transgaming to be involved anymore. especially since, in my experience, wine's direct x implementation is much better than transgaming's and by nature of the wine project, free, why bother paying transgaming for an inferior product?
|
deathscyth76
Caldari
Rukongai
|
Posted - 2009.09.16 03:45:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Solbright
Holy crap! I hope you don't feel the Mac has a better deal?
Never. 
By the way, mates - With your (And the Ubuntu Communities') help,
I now play EVE in High-Res goodness =)
-------------
"Just put down the laser, Give me all your ISKies - And everyone walks out alive. |
farfrael
Insidious Existence
RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.09.16 10:50:00 -
[6]
Originally by: deathscyth76
Never.
By the way, mates - With your (And the Ubuntu Communities') help,
I now play EVE in High-Res goodness =)
link please?
Also, as mentioned previously, Eve never had a native linux client.
The previous "linux client" was provided through a slightly customized version of the Cedega engine and was a complete and utter piece of **** (at least compared to running the official client under Wine).
|
Glengrant
TOHA Heavy Industries
|
Posted - 2009.09.17 20:45:00 -
[7]
There was never a "native" version.
The discontinued official version was just wrapped which gave it the appearance of being native.
The tech was pretty much the same as running on wine - with the difference that wine is actually way ahead. Official version needed a couple less things to remember during install but then never ran as well as wine.
And actually you already have a native version. The EVE app consists of 3 kinds of code. x86 code - that's the same set of ops that the cpu works with regardless of the os you use. Secondly there is python - runs on all platforms - and eventually also ends up being x86 instructions.
And lastly there's the win api calls. What most people don't understand about wine (and same was true for offical cedega wrapped client) is that linux already has more or less the same functionality available as windows - file manipulation, graphics primitives, threads, network comm, etc. It's all there - so all a win exe needs is to find the system DLLs it expects and that api looks the same. So wine provides apis that look like win api - and then translates paramters and calls the liux equivalent function.
Just consider the win api a portability layer that multi-platform devs would use anyway and runing eve on wine *is* a native app.
Of course not all DirectX calls are perfectly translated to OpenGL yet - so you get some speed loss here and there - but the diffs ain't that big. And some functions are actually more efficient on Linux than windows (Process management for example).
---
Save the forum: Think before you post.
ISK BUYER = LOSER
EVE TV- Bring it back!
Laptop, NVidia7900GS, Ubuntu 8.04, WINE |
Al Merrick
Why U Viloence Me
Revival Of The Talocan Empire
|
Posted - 2009.09.18 23:25:00 -
[8]
from what i hear it was because of time invested/money to make it "native" did not justify the limited amount of people using it.
but also from what i've read, most linux users tried it, and said its crap, went back to wine. i tried it, and it was fail.
ccp has no idea how many people are actually running eve on wine, so they don't know how big the linux player base is, only that not enough were using the wrapped client to justify upkeeping it.
when they got rid of the old client, and went all premium (when we all had to go out and buy directx 10 graphics cards) i think it was just to much to try and give a stable linux release.
when it comes down to it, eve is one of the best performing games on wine for me. after going through some headaches.
|
Beren Haderach
Amarr
Haderach Enterprise
|
Posted - 2009.09.30 23:29:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Glengrant
There was never a "native" version.
The discontinued official version was just wrapped which gave it the appearance of being native.
The tech was pretty much the same as running on wine - with the difference that wine is actually way ahead. Official version needed a couple less things to remember during install but then never ran as well as wine.
And actually you already have a native version. The EVE app consists of 3 kinds of code. x86 code - that's the same set of ops that the cpu works with regardless of the os you use. Secondly there is python - runs on all platforms - and eventually also ends up being x86 instructions.
And lastly there's the win api calls. What most people don't understand about wine (and same was true for offical cedega wrapped client) is that linux already has more or less the same functionality available as windows - file manipulation, graphics primitives, threads, network comm, etc. It's all there - so all a win exe needs is to find the system DLLs it expects and that api looks the same. So wine provides apis that look like win api - and then translates paramters and calls the liux equivalent function.
Just consider the win api a portability layer that multi-platform devs would use anyway and runing eve on wine *is* a native app.
Of course not all DirectX calls are perfectly translated to OpenGL yet - so you get some speed loss here and there - but the diffs ain't that big. And some functions are actually more efficient on Linux than windows (Process management for example).
It is refreshing to see that there's at least another sentient being in the universe.
A "Native" client doesn't matter, as long as Wine supports correctly every single API call EVE makes. Code inside EVE runs at native speeds.
Of course, CCP could make this process less painful by testing EVE under Wine, before releases. And by at least filing bug reports against Wine (if that's the case) with useful information.
|
Draco Argen
|
Posted - 2009.10.15 18:00:00 -
[10]
I certainly felt like i'd been kicked when the official release was dropped.
But other posters are bang on. We just had to read between the lines that Linux Geeks were finding the better path of Wine anyway and they dropped Cedega. It wasn't cost effective for anyone.
We are unlikely to ever get native support as the only and best support for DirectX is Wine. But it runs well, due to the far better memory and CPU management the Linux OS gives. I personally find it runs smoother under Linux anyway, especially for multitasking point of view (ie browsers, email, other apps + Eve). Its ironic as otherwise Eve is Python and C++. Both of which are fairly portable to nix, esp Python.
Slowly CCP's public facing opinion of Linux is improving now the dust has settled after the drop.
They officially requested testers identify themselves as Linux users on the test thread. I had a good forum convo with grayscale about how to help them detect Eve on wine.
And so far Dominion on SiSi is working FAR better than Mac :P
So they actually care and are starting to show it.
|
Xianthar
STK Scientific
The Initiative.
|
Posted - 2009.10.15 21:15:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Beren Haderach
Of course, CCP could make this process less painful by testing EVE under Wine, before releases. And by at least filing bug reports against Wine (if that's the case) with useful information.
As i understand it from CCP posts i've seen in the past they do run a "quick" test on a linux box with wine for patch compatibility.
Linux will always have an issue with complete testing from vendors, there are simply too many distros with various combinations of packages and kernels to do a complete validation test on "linux". Looking at the companies that do provide validated linux apps (mostly server space) they are only validated on a particular distribution or two, usually red hat and suse.
|
Draco Argen
|
Posted - 2009.10.16 01:07:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Xianthar
Originally by: Beren Haderach
Linux will always have an issue with complete testing from vendors, there are simply too many distros with various combinations of packages and kernels to do a complete validation test on "linux". Looking at the companies that do provide validated linux apps (mostly server space) they are only validated on a particular distribution or two, usually red hat and suse.
I see your point, but interestingly running via wine really reduces the Distro's effect on the Eve product for Linux. As long as it runs with wine and the expected support is there for the graphics card then the distro shouldnt affect the support. Most of the compatibility issues can be put down to Eve vs Wine. Hell I hear Eve runs ok on FreeBSD :P Not even Linux :)
I agree that they seem to run it past Wine as part of the process. I think its initiated by some internal CCP guys who actually use Linux, but i've never figured out who it might be.
|
farfrael
Insidious Existence
RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.10.16 10:47:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Draco ArgenI see your point, but interestingly running via wine really reduces the Distro's effect on the Eve product for Linux. As long as it runs with wine and the expected support is there for the graphics card then the distro shouldnt affect the support. [/quote
not quite true as seen from all the recent threads with "omg eve is broken on Ubuntu 9.xx". Some distros just include modified kernels or modified toolchains or use old versions of certain packages etc etc
|
Draco Argen
|
Posted - 2009.10.16 12:50:00 -
[14]
I'd personally put that down to the higher use of Unbuntu as an introductory to Linux (IE lots of new less knowledgable *nix users).
I'm not saying it has no effect. Just that it has less then if it was actually a native app.
Still, guides for Hacking away at configs and patching wine is different on every system. Because at that level they are all quite different, true.
Doze has always had the advantage of a consistent platform to deploy to.
We can but hope one day CCP will at least employ just one dev or QA who works on Linux to provide support. My first target is to get them a technical way to see how many of us there really is. (ie their current OS detection doesn't) I was bemused and pleased to be listening to an eve blog on trading and hear two of the four speakers were running on Linux.
|
Xianthar
STK Scientific
The Initiative.
|
Posted - 2009.10.16 21:45:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Draco Argen
Doze has always had the advantage of a consistent platform to deploy to.
this isn't true at all, you've got windows xp times 3 service packs, vista times what? 2 service packs?, they had win2000 times 3? 4?, now windows 7...all of these with nvidia, ATI, and intel graphics. The actual number of permutations they have to validate on is really quite large even for windows.
The linux problem is far worse as you've got dozens of kernel versions and possibly dozens more modifications that could theoretically run eve. Cross this with the plenthera of graphics drivers (intel uxa or exa?, open ati or closed ati?, etc) and your looking at a huge number of test cases.
Of course what the linux community really wants is "partial support". That is we want is a compatibility test against wine but everything under wine is our problem. While i agree this would be cool, this is way more of a legal issue than anything else. Its very difficult for a company to guarantee support for a structure like that without getting themselves into possible legal issues.
The general concept sounds simple but it is far from it due to the complex interactions between a game and the graphics hardware. Even games on windows often end up requiring work arounds in the driver to perform correctly. Toss in a translation layer like wine and you've really complicated the situation. Lots of bug reports on wineHQ end up being ****ing matches with wine devs saying is a driver issue and driver providers saying its a wine issue, etc, etc. There is a fair bit of hack around code in wine as it is to "work around" driver issues and the like. Ideally pealing off wine as a layer and targeting it would be simple, unfortunately the reality isn't quite there.
This type of climate isn't the kind of thing i would want to jump into as a company, especially not in the video game space, your just asking for some idiotic class action suit over some false marketing or some silly thing like that because a few people couldn't get eve to run off their new $100 "linux" machine from walmart.
|
Vajra Spear
|
Posted - 2009.10.30 21:58:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Vajra Spear on 30/10/2009 22:01:17
I was one of the people "requesting" A Linux EVE client back in the early days. One of the reasons I left EVE was because of the lame reasons for not supporting Linux that were coming out in the forums.
Now I have returned to EVE in the last couple of months.
I played EVE on my windows gaming install kind of without even thinking about it, but then I think - "I wonder if I can get it to run in Linux these days".... I didn't even look at the forum.
Imagine my surprise.
A fresh install of Slackware 13. I install wine from the 12.2 tgz package. Install the EVE client and Kapow!
It's all good. It even spans across my 2 screens (which it won't do in windows)
It runs a lot better as well - even considering that my windows install is optimized for games and my Slackware install is running servers as well.
Perhaps I shouldn't be surprised how far things have come in, what, 4 years.
CCP's attitude towards Linux has definitely improved and I wouldn't be surprised if they do make an effort to make the code tidy enough so as to not break wine - lots of developers don't bother to do that, so grats to them.
Anyway, just wanted to share my linux happiness - lol.
Now, back to EVE
:)
|
| |
|
| Pages: 1 :: [one page] |