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Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.09.18 19:30:00 - [31] Originally by: Kail Storm So since your comparison Gyps of the Cerb and Zealot the cerb in a even sniper match @100km has no chance of beating the zealot because of insta dmg right? "Beating"? What does this mean? If you mean "deal more damage assuming perfect tracking", then the maths is easy. Zealot takes 2.1 s to lock a 420 m sig BS, and applies 290 DPS. Cerb takes 2.5 s to lock BS, missiles take about 9.5 seconds to arrive, dealing 394 DPS (440 DPS with Fury) after this. Therefore, the Cerb has dealt more total damage with CN about 40 seconds after starting to lock. With Fury, it's about 31 seconds. Originally by: Kail Storm Also Im getting cerb soon gyps and dav what is the best use of cerb? Solo sniping? Group? Hac fleet? I use Cerb as a DPS support platform in a small gang in lowsec. Its main role is to remove hostile ECM boats and other range-tankers from the field, with a secondary role of applying ~400 raw DPS to any ship within 240 km. Its ability to project DPS across the field is unsurpassed. For example, we fought a mixed gang with a Rook and Falcon recently. We had 3-4 BS, 2 Cerbs and a beam Zealot. Their ECM was crippling our BS's RR... until our support arrived and both Rook and Falcon (and their RR Osprey) got swatted from the field from long range by Cerbs and Zealot.
Kail Storm Caldari The Unforgiving.	Posted - 2009.09.18 19:50:00 - [32] I meant a sniper match between the zealot and cerb but realize now it probably would never happen. I just wanted to see If the Cerb at 100k could beat the Zealot taking into account the zealots insta dmg and the cerbs flight time of 9 secs. But basically the Zealot would only be 1.5 volleys or 9 secsx240 dps ahead in the sniper dual. So it already is a very close fight. I never took into account swatting the ecm guys with Hacs but it totally makes sense, I always thought the tactic was to swarm them with all the ships but since the cerb has great range and great speed to keep range it totally makes sense. Have you ever used ham Cerb? Whats its "Real max range"? Can it make it out far enough to be outside hard hitting BS rang?[45km] thx If you run, You`ll only die tired :)
Tozmeister Digital Fury Corporation	Posted - 2009.09.18 19:55:00 - [33] In the hypothetical cerb vs zealot sniper match-up cerb would also get a couple of extra k EHP from passive shield recharge over the course of the duel. +++????+++Out of Cheese Error. Redo From Start+++
Davinel Lulinvega	Posted - 2009.09.18 20:18:00 - [34] Zealot vs cerb in a 1v1 is a pointless comparison. All the cerb has to do is mwd away and it wins. In fact it doesn't even have to do that, since the cerb actually has a buffer. There is basically no possible way the cerb could lose. The problem comes when you have 20 zealots/muninns/deimos(ugh) and they kill their target before the missiles even land. The best use for a cerb is like gypsio said, anti-support. Originally by: CCP Tuxford Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke! inb4 stealth edit
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.09.18 20:51:00 - [35] I've never used HAM Cerb. The numbers look good - 550 DPS to ~39 km with Rage - but the PG is too tight, and you can't then fulfil the anti-support role nearly as well. A Drake basically does the same thing also, but with less mobility. I looked at solo Cerb after turning away from Sacrilege in disgust. Sac's problem was that it basically has to choose only one from good tank, good mobility and good DPS. Five lowslots and the absence of a missile velocity bonus was horrible. Deimos syndrome. So I looked at some semi-nano solo Cerb fits, the idea being to have enough mobility to stay outside BC scramble/web range but with good DPS to the edge of overheated disruptor range. It looked... okay. I haven't tried it and doubt that I ever will, when a bog-standard HM Drake will do a similar thing (much less mobility though) for a fraction of the price.
RC Denton	Posted - 2009.09.18 21:58:00 - [36] Originally by: Kail Storm So since your comparison Gyps of the Cerb and Zealot the cerb in a even sniper match @100km has no chance of beating the zealot because of insta dmg right? It seems to me that the 3k buffer and Higher dps isnt enough to bridge not just the extra 10 seconds it takes for the "missle lag" but also the fact that Cald ships have the slowest lock times in the game, So I do think that speeding up velocity to double might help and change that fight. Since it would change to 5 secs+slower lock time might make the fight even and let it up to the pilots. I just think as it might not change the base facts it would change the time in which the cerb tank fails and will make it more about pilot skill then just ships, maybe by the end of fight the cerb could close range, or the Zealot could hold its range in fight? What do you think do you think this sounds about right? Also Im getting cerb soon gyps and dav what is the best use of cerb? Solo sniping? Group? Hac fleet? Also the zealot is going to be faster than the cerb, so unless the cerb has preset warp-ins the cerb pilot will not be able to bring the superior range to bear, while the zealot pilot can keep the cerb in optimal fairly easily.
Deva Blackfire Viziam	Posted - 2009.09.19 00:52:00 - [37] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 19/09/2009 00:55:05 Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 19/09/2009 00:52:39 Wow someone here actually UNDERSTANDS how to fly sniper cerb. Im SHOCKED Yeh like said before: in straight out fight alpha from zealots usually kills target before missiles land. Cerb role is to kill ECM (or recons alltogether), dictors and frigs (if AML setup). Pretty much heavy missile cerb is better than zealot at killing dessys and larger (well at 100ish KM, at longer distances missile flight delay gets noticeable) and better than zealot at killing smaller stuff if set up with AMLs. Advantage of zealot: alpha and ability to swat both types of target without swapping fits. As for HAM cerb: i actually flown one LONG before i got t2 heavy launchers and tbh - i wouldnt come back to HAMs unless i was NPCing. It is around 40km range but cerb is IMO too weak and too slow hac to sit at 40km from enemy. Its much easier to sit at 80-200km and just spam CN or rage heavies. If you want HAMs just use drake or sacrilege. @ Gypsio: sac: 2x rep 2x anp 1x bcu, missile damage rig, missile ROF rig. Should kill any drake no problem or if problems arise GTFO thanks to higher speed (yeh ~1,5km/s is not awesome but its fast enough). I dont use DC on this sac. If you bleed to struct it means you are dead already - prefer to abuse 2x rep ability. Mids are standard mwd/web/20k/injector
Liang Nuren The Hull Miners Union Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2009.09.19 17:55:00 - [38] Originally by: Deva Blackfire @ Gypsio: sac: 2x rep 2x anp 1x bcu, missile damage rig, missile ROF rig. Should kill any drake no problem or if problems arise GTFO thanks to higher speed (yeh ~1,5km/s is not awesome but its fast enough). I dont use DC on this sac. If you bleed to struct it means you are dead already - prefer to abuse 2x rep ability. Mids are standard mwd/web/20k/injector So I assume your idea is to stay out of range and pepper the Drake from 22km with Javs? -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Aleus Stygian	Posted - 2009.09.19 19:24:00 - [39] Originally by: Liang Nuren So I assume your idea is to stay out of range and pepper the Drake from 22km with Javs? -Liang This. Sac will never win against a Drake in a melee like that. You'll have to bring a friend in a Huginn along if you want so much as to have a shot at it. Not that this doesn't apply to just about any other fight against anything but a T1 Cruiser... _________________________________________________________
Deva Blackfire Viziam	Posted - 2009.09.19 19:28:00 - [40] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 19/09/2009 19:29:42 Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Deva Blackfire @ Gypsio: sac: 2x rep 2x anp 1x bcu, missile damage rig, missile ROF rig. Should kill any drake no problem or if problems arise GTFO thanks to higher speed (yeh ~1,5km/s is not awesome but its fast enough). I dont use DC on this sac. If you bleed to struct it means you are dead already - prefer to abuse 2x rep ability. Mids are standard mwd/web/20k/injector So I assume your idea is to stay out of range and pepper the Drake from 22km with Javs? -Liang Nop. Enter its range and tank it. Only good skilled HAM drake will break you (thats why set orbit at around 15km to be safe from eventual mwd+web+scramble attempt). And most HAM + lse + 2x invulni (so typical HAM drake) will die before they break you. Quote: Sac will never win against a Drake in a melee like that. You'll have to bring a friend in a Huginn along if you want so much as to have a shot at it. And this makes absolutely no sense. Why huginn? To web drake? Im faster i can stay outside of web - so one of huginn bonuses is not needed. I deal full damage on drake using rage assaults - so another reason to use huginn (TP) is out. So why exactly i NEED huginn?
Aleus Stygian	Posted - 2009.09.19 19:38:00 - [41] Edited by: Aleus Stygian on 19/09/2009 19:43:22 Originally by: Deva Blackfire And this makes absolutely no sense. Why huginn? To web drake? Im faster i can stay outside of web - so one of huginn bonuses is not needed. I deal full damage on drake using rage assaults - so another reason to use huginn (TP) is out. So why exactly i NEED huginn? Perfect management of range and extra DPS, protection from eventualities such as the Drake not being a cookie-cutter, plus much, much faster gettingthe****outability in case you bite off more than you can chew. If you didn't see these factors already... _________________________________________________________
Deva Blackfire Viziam	Posted - 2009.09.19 19:50:00 - [42] Originally by: Aleus Stygian Edited by: Aleus Stygian on 19/09/2009 19:43:22 Originally by: Deva Blackfire And this makes absolutely no sense. Why huginn? To web drake? Im faster i can stay outside of web - so one of huginn bonuses is not needed. I deal full damage on drake using rage assaults - so another reason to use huginn (TP) is out. So why exactly i NEED huginn? Perfect management of range and extra DPS, protection from eventualities such as the Drake not being a cookie-cutter, plus much, much faster gettingthe****outability in case you bite off more than you can chew. If you didn't see these factors already... Lol. Mate i've flown sacri for quiiiite a while now and killed quite a few drakes in it. Drake is way too slow to actually catch you off guard with mwd+web (and im talking overheated here) trick so you are quite safe at 15km. In fact you can increase orbit (effective, so set for ~14km if you MWD) to around 16km and still pepper it with missiles. Above setup can tank anything drake will throw at it (well might need to kill few light drones to be 100% sure) so its just matter of time: either drake dies 1st (and buffer one will) or you run out of cap boosters (i carry 13 or so - plenty of time). So seriously - dont even try to teach me how to fly hybrid (dualrep+damage) sac. In this case i DO know better.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.09.19 19:51:00 - [43] Originally by: Deva Blackfire sac: 2x rep 2x anp 1x bcu, missile damage rig, missile ROF rig. Should kill any drake no problem or if problems arise GTFO thanks to higher speed (yeh ~1,5km/s is not awesome but its fast enough). I dont use DC on this sac. If you bleed to struct it means you are dead already - prefer to abuse 2x rep ability. Mids are standard mwd/web/20k/injector The tank still looks a bit on the weak side. And if the Drake has a scrambler then there's a good chance that I won't be able to disengage. Assuming dual EANM, that fit tanks 248 thermal DPS raw, 386 thermal DPS with dual overloaded reps and standard Exile. Now, that'll be enough against many Drakes... but the typical triple BCS HAM Drake will deal 543 DPS with Hellfire Rage (which will do full damage against a Sac that is using Rage itself, or with standard Crash) and Warriors, and I don't see the Sac tanking that for very long... On the other hand, I generally fly HML Drake these days, as it's much more tactically flexible, and the Sac can just about tank that with Exile until reps burn out. But my main concern is that the Sac is dead as soon as support arrives. A Drake is likely to die as well, but only costs ~25 mill to replace... An extra lowslot on the Sac would make a world of difference, I feel...
Deva Blackfire Viziam	Posted - 2009.09.19 20:07:00 - [44] Originally by: Gypsio III Now, that'll be enough against many Drakes... but the typical triple BCS HAM Drake will deal 543 DPS with Hellfire Rage (which will do full damage against a Sac that is using Rage itself, or with standard Crash) and Warriors, and I don't see the Sac tanking that for very long... Explosion velocity hurts it bad. 139 vs 220ish on orbitting sac (top speed 248) means you get about 60% (+-10%) of drake's damage. Most HAM drakes fly with 2x BCU giving them around 430dps with rages alone. Damage reduction brings it into tankable region. Warriors are almost neiglible doing grand total of 8 dps :) Quote: On the other hand, I generally fly HML Drake these days, as it's much more tactically flexible, and the Sac can just about tank that with Exile until reps burn out. But my main concern is that the Sac is dead as soon as support arrives. A Drake is likely to die as well, but only costs ~25 mill to replace... If we play support card i can say vice-versa: i can hold drake long enough till my support arrives and pops drake. Anyway its quite doable fight IF sac pilot knows what he is doing instead of rushing right into scrambler range. In scrambler you cant use HAC speed advantage so you will surely die. Quote: An extra lowslot on the Sac would make a world of difference, I feel... True. Id love 1 more lowslot but tbh... its hard to find slot you could drop for it. Utility hislot is usually occupied by small neut and this toy can save your back vs AFs (especially new overpowered AFs if ccp release them) - and you as caldari pilot know well how HAMs + web will work vs non-neuted AF. same for mids: 4 mids are necessity. lows? you always lack 1 to make best out of sac but i find 4 slot tank, 1 slot damage (+ rigs into damage) best way to do this. Not only you abuse everything out of sac's tank bonus but you still retain speed and some damage. I absolutely HATE 1600mm + trimarks on sac (or 2x rep + 2x aux pump). It is SLOW (2x rep) or slow and cumbersome (1600mm) one and those will easily die to any HAM drake out there.
Liang Nuren The Hull Miners Union Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2009.09.19 20:55:00 - [45] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 19/09/2009 21:03:59 Originally by: Deva Blackfire Nop. Enter its range and tank it. Only good skilled HAM drake will break you (thats why set orbit at around 15km to be safe from eventual mwd+web+scramble attempt). And most HAM + lse + 2x invulni (so typical HAM drake) will die before they break you. No, they won't. -Liang Ed: Don't get me wrong - the Sacrilege is really good. But it's not going to win a straight slug fest with a Drake. -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Deva Blackfire Viziam	Posted - 2009.09.19 21:01:00 - [46] Whatever you say. And i will still engage drakes and kill them while you crunch numbers and sit docked. The fight result for me can be either me running or me winning. His result can be either fending me off or him dying. Thats why its always worth to engage drake in sac.
Liang Nuren The Hull Miners Union Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2009.09.19 21:06:00 - [47] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Whatever you say. And i will still engage drakes and kill them while you crunch numbers and sit docked. The fight result for me can be either me running or me winning. His result can be either fending me off or him dying. Thats why its always worth to engage drake in sac. Which was always why it was worth engaging Drakes and such in Vagabonds. They didn't really risk much - even if they had an extremely low chance of actual success. The same can be said for any number of things (such as 250km Sniper Rokhs in lowsec). Also, I seem to think you are the one sitting around crunching numbers these days - you spend half your day trolling the AF thread and freely admit you haven't even bothered to log in and look. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Deva Blackfire Viziam	Posted - 2009.09.19 21:26:00 - [48] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 19/09/2009 21:32:00 Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 19/09/2009 21:28:26 Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 19/09/2009 21:27:36 Ok if you want numbers (did vs CN hams to make it easier): MWDing sacri: 840sig, 1500 velocity (actual is 1589 but in orbit it loses a bit) DRF=4,8 on rage HAMs and using missile damage formula found here: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=901280 You get 45% damage going thru against sacrilege vs hellfire rage HAMs (i didnt use combat boosters in calculation, too much work and too many variables - as sac pilot can use either rep or speed combat boosters). HAM drake DPS (2x BCU) with rages is 433. After damage reduction it ends up being 195. Dualrep sac without overheat with 2x centi c-type ANPs (i use those to ease on CPU) has 71% thermal resist (lowest) and can rep 245 dps from pure thermal damage. 245 > 195 dps so it can permatank rage missiles. 5x warrior ii damage is neiglible. Like i said before its whole 8dps so still inside tankable region. Thus sac MWDing at 15km is both immune to web (2km margin is close but still doable if you pay attention + you can always have your own web ready on overheat to get out). Approach 2: drake uses CN HAMs. DRF=4,5, crunching number into XLS file to get damage reduction gives me.... tadam 50% damage reduction New drake DPS (using CN hellfires) is 389dps. Result? 194,5dps. Still tankable. Result In both cases: 5x warrior t2, 2x BCU, 7x assault launcher drake with maxed skill not using combat boosters is TANKED by 2x rep 2x eanm(c-type anp) sacrilege. If you want to add 3rd bcu, go ahead. It is still tankable. Only thing that could screw sac's day is flight of hobgoblins t2 (they are fairly easy to dispatch - web, fire salvo, drone starts mwd while still being webbed, drone dies). Out of curiosity i checked standard crash booster on CN missiles: explo radius becomes 121,2 resulting in 60% damage going thru. 0,6x389dps = 233dps. Actually quite strong boost and gets close to breaking tank but still not enough. And still easily patched by sacri pilot eating exile pill. So here you go. Me being very nice person gave you tank of sac vs gank of drake. I know its at 1500speed (out of 1580). So i can be even nicer. With 1400 speed (some slight orbit adjusting) you get hit by 65% damage (after boosters etc, CN missiles). Might start breaking sacri till it backs into higher speed and reps it up. or till he eats armor pill. Q.E.D EDIT: i do hope that the XLS file from topic i linked is correct. If it is not please link me correct one so i can re-calculate it. Quote: Also, I seem to think you are the one sitting around crunching numbers these days - you spend half your day trolling the AF thread and freely admit you haven't even bothered to log in and look. As you can see from above: i can both play game and re-engineer it into number crunch (when you dont believe actual results) or vice-versa. As for AFs i used em on TQ and i know they are heavily resistant to light missiles now. Thus another speed boost will only enforce their missile resistance even further. If you want i can even crunch numbers for you. Or log onto sisi and tell "yay it tanks missiles" which is really accurate way of saying how good the tank/damage is. Not.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.09.19 21:59:00 - [49] I've only skimmed that post but are you relying on staying outside web range to get the speed-tank benefit?
Deva Blackfire Viziam	Posted - 2009.09.19 22:09:00 - [50] yes. Range is enough with 2-3km buffer zone (from web). Drake is not agile enough to try and break your orbit, especially if you are paying attention. When orbitting at 16km (effective) you have 3km buffer zone from web and 5km from scrambler. Enough for evasive manouvres. Also remember that MWD drake moves 1470m/s so there is still plenty of leftover speed for sacri to move away WITHOUT overheat. Also like i said: step on sacri combat, you are stepping onto the ground im most experienced (from all hacs) with. My sacri is pretty much maxed (that includes HAM spec 5) :)
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.09.19 22:47:00 - [51] Yeah, I trained HAM Spec V for the Drake ages ago. I'll have to test the kiting thing, my manual piloting skills aren't too hot, and it would get trickier when there's more than one neutral on the field.
Deva Blackfire Viziam	Posted - 2009.09.19 22:53:00 - [52] Originally by: Gypsio III Yeah, I trained HAM Spec V for the Drake ages ago. I'll have to test the kiting thing, my manual piloting skills aren't too hot, and it would get trickier when there's more than one neutral on the field. Isnt kiting = keep at range? If yes this wont work. The moment drake stops your ship will drop speed and get hit quite hard (due to MWD running). And yes with 2 hostiles it gets much riskier. It is better to kill the other target 1st and then go back to drake (well if its possible). Still im quite surprised with amount of damage reduction you get by just running MWD (well its same as not running MWD at all but tbh you would prefer to keep speed at max instead of orbitting with 250m/s). And it actually made me rethink fighting ishtars. I guess buying gallente web is mandatory here (especially vs nano ishtars which can hit around 2km/s = around 60% damage mitigation if not more).
Liang Nuren The Hull Miners Union Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2009.09.20 00:17:00 - [53] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Isnt kiting = keep at range? If yes this wont work. The moment drake stops your ship will drop speed and get hit quite hard (due to MWD running). And yes with 2 hostiles it gets much riskier. It is better to kill the other target 1st and then go back to drake (well if its possible). Yes, kiting is keeping someone at range, but no kiting isn't the "keep at range" button. Furthermore, I am amused by your seeming initial insistence that a Sacrilege can straight take a Drake in a stand up fight - and then it comes out that you're trying to half nano it. It's still going to be a close thing even if you can make it happen. Also, it's exceedingly amusing that you accuse other people of just sitting around crunching numbers that don't approach reality and insist that you're so good at playing AND crunching the numbers and don't have to log in and actually see if they approach reality. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Deva Blackfire Viziam	Posted - 2009.09.20 00:37:00 - [54] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 20/09/2009 00:41:57 Quote: Furthermore, I am amused by your seeming initial insistence that a Sacrilege can straight take a Drake in a stand up fight - and then it comes out that you're trying to half nano it. It's still going to be a close thing even if you can make it happen. Requoting for your short memory: Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 19/09/2009 21:03:59 Originally by: Deva Blackfire Nop. Enter its range and tank it. Only good skilled HAM drake will break you (thats why set orbit at around 15km to be safe from eventual mwd+web+scramble attempt). And most HAM + lse + 2x invulni (so typical HAM drake) will die before they break you. No, they won't. Ed: Don't get me wrong - the Sacrilege is really good. But it's not going to win a straight slug fest with a Drake. I never insisted i will sit like idiot at full stop. You did it. I said i will not fire javelins, just enter proper rage/CN range and use those. Its not my fault that you overassume and then when i show you maths you say its "not what you thought". Also no, my fit is not "half-nano". Its tank/damage fit not nano/damage or nano/tank. As you can see i do not use ANY speed mods except for mandatory MWD. So stop thinking too much and read it again. Also im quite surprised you are even trying to compare hac and BC at straight out slugfest without playing their trump cards. If any noobs asks you why chose HAC over BC everyone will say "mobility". And yet you totally ignore this part in combat. Quote: Also, it's exceedingly amusing that you accuse other people of just sitting around crunching numbers that don't approach reality and insist that you're so good at playing AND crunching the numbers and don't have to log in and actually see if they approach reality. I got my fair share of kills in sacrilege. Both pre- and post nano nerf. The setup i posted earlier is adapted POST nanonerf setup ive been using. If i were to post some old crap it would be nano/dualrep/damage hybrid (3 in 1, yeh i flown this). And no i dont "test" on sisi. I kill stuff on TQ instead. You already know where to find my kills if you really want to check them. Oh yea you wont find kills from last 2 weeks (since im in viziam) coz i just dont post them.
Liang Nuren The Hull Miners Union Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2009.09.20 01:33:00 - [55] Quote: Also im quite surprised you are even trying to compare hac and BC at straight out slugfest without playing their trump cards. If any noobs asks you why chose HAC over BC everyone will say "mobility". And yet you totally ignore this part in combat. I never ignore that part of combat unless it's actually negligible. At any rate, my apologies if I had missed your 15km MWD/speed tank proposition. Seems a bit risky to me, but I could see how it would work for you. Originally by: Deva Blackfire And no i dont "test" on sisi. I kill stuff on TQ instead. You already know where to find my kills if you really want to check them. Oh yea you wont find kills from last 2 weeks (since im in viziam) coz i just dont post them. If you don't "test" on sisi you're hardly qualified to be speaking about the changes they put there now are you. Also, I had noticed your Viziam status. I almost commented on it. Seems like there's a lot of good blokes out there in noob corps recently. :-/ -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Davinel Lulinvega	Posted - 2009.09.20 07:19:00 - [56] I, too, can make pointless arguments about mythical 1v1s. Originally by: CCP Tuxford Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke! inb4 stealth edit

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