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Skex Relbore
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Posted - 2009.09.23 15:56:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: BiglipsMarie
I predict the complete and utter failure of your "pvp" career the moment you attempt to fight someone.
Undoubtedly I'll die a bit. I'm a new player with a character still in his double xp time who doesn't have a firm grasps of the game mechanics yet.
Hell I'll probably die alot. That's part of the learning curve in any game. Then again I played a raiding ranger in EQ for 10 years I don't get worked up over having a character killed.
I do note that you have not even attempted to rebutt my actual argument.
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Carcosa Hali
Order of Anarchy
The Laughing Men
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Posted - 2009.09.23 16:15:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Skex Relbore
Originally by: BiglipsMarie
I predict the complete and utter failure of your "pvp" career the moment you attempt to fight someone.
Undoubtedly I'll die a bit. I'm a new player with a character still in his double xp time who doesn't have a firm grasps of the game mechanics yet.
Hell I'll probably die alot. That's part of the learning curve in any game. Then again I played a raiding ranger in EQ for 10 years I don't get worked up over having a character killed.
I do note that you have not even attempted to rebutt my actual argument.
What was your actual argument again? Could you reiterate that please?
Was it that we should wardec and kill each other? We do.
Was it that carebears are needed for their tears? We know.
Was it that you're new, don't get upset about pixels and will someday tire of the bleating of those who treat it as if it is actual life and death? You will.
and then you'll end up here, because you get the joke.
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Sometimes you lose it all. |
Elno Wildclaw
Altruism.
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Posted - 2009.09.23 16:43:00 -
[33]
So, you're saying that Crime and Punishment is the Comedian?
A soft word turneth away wrath. While its back is turned, shoot it in the head. |
Skex Relbore
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Posted - 2009.09.23 16:47:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Carcosa Hali
Originally by: Skex Relbore
Originally by: BiglipsMarie
I predict the complete and utter failure of your "pvp" career the moment you attempt to fight someone.
Undoubtedly I'll die a bit. I'm a new player with a character still in his double xp time who doesn't have a firm grasps of the game mechanics yet.
Hell I'll probably die alot. That's part of the learning curve in any game. Then again I played a raiding ranger in EQ for 10 years I don't get worked up over having a character killed.
I do note that you have not even attempted to rebutt my actual argument.
What was your actual argument again? Could you reiterate that please?
Was it that we should wardec and kill each other? We do.
Was it that carebears are needed for their tears? We know.
Was it that you're new, don't get upset about pixels and will someday tire of the bleating of those who treat it as if it is actual life and death? You will.
and then you'll end up here, because you get the joke.
My argument was that the tax is a ****poor idea that only serves to harm the long term prospects of the games continued existence by driving less commited players away.
I also noted that from reading these threads that a large number of the proponents for said tax seem to be focused squarely on posibility of wardecing these people.
Which begs the question of why they are so interested in wardecing a bunch of newbs in the first place.
I understand that some people abuse the NPC corps to avoid certain aspects of the game and that this can be frustrating to some who have legitimate beefs.
My objection is that the proposed solution is ham fisted and won't acheived the desired objective. That sure it might run people out of the NPC corps but it is very unlikely to make people move into active player corps.
Most likely people will either ignore the tax, form 1 man corps or just quit.
I also take issue with all the holier than thou twits who get all worked up because someone might not enjoy their particular playstyle and think that they have a right to ask CCP to force other people to play the way they think they should play.
Personally the drama and fighting is what I find interesting in the game but I understand that other people may not find the same things interesting to them. Like I said I did high end raiding in EQ for almost 10 years in one of the top guilds in the game but that didn't mean that I looked down on people who just played casually hanging with freinds.
Peoples playstyles and goals in games are shaped by a large number of factors from their own interests to the amount of time they are able to commit around real life commitments.
For instance as much as I'd love to be involved in running a large 0.0 aliance fighting cap battles to control entire regions of space with a full time job a wife and 2 kids that just isn't going to happen. So my play style is going to be more reserved and less epic.
I'm ok with that. And you know what other people may like just loggin on and going and hitting a belt with friends for a couple hours after a long days work.
In the end the tax increase probably won't amount to much change at all. It's easily avoided and only applies to certain incomes anyway.
But the philosophical position that it represents is a problem. It just isn't smart to try and run off your most profitable players.
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Nihiliax
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Posted - 2009.09.23 17:12:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Nihiliax on 23/09/2009 17:13:35
Skex yours have been concise and well thought out posts and as such I'm afraid they have no place on the Eve fora and certainly not within C&P. Much as you would like to believe it should it just doesn't work that way here. What you have to keep in mind is that, for the most part, you are attempting to engage in mature discourse with adolescents and as such are wasting your breath.
You mention you have children yourself. Are they still young? If so do you find when they misbehave that you are able to correct their behaviour by talking to them in a reasonable manner and engaging them in a meaningful discussion to get the root of their misconduct or do you, as I suspect, have to resort to punishing them to get them to do your bidding?
Well it's exactly the same in Eve. Of course it is obvious that the high sec wardec gankers are merely the inept wannabe PVPers who are unable to engage in effective combat against other players who are actually prepared for ship-to-ship battles but attempting to point that out is akin to banging your head against a brick wall. Unfortunately this is a dog-eat-dog game and as such I am afraid you will just have to learn to be the bigger, fiercer dog.
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Dawts
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers
Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.23 17:21:00 -
[36]
Stop f*gging up my thread with all these srs spaceship biznzz tear fueled wall of texts.
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Fumen
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2009.09.23 18:47:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Skex Relbore
Edited by: Skex Relbore on 23/09/2009 15:47:27
Big Wall O' Text
Ok, we understand that you care about the quality of the game. Great. Don't tell us about it; tell CCP about it. We (the forum community) can't do crap other than shoot you for being annoying. Well, we can troll you and /rant back at you, but really, nothing will get the message spread as well as filing petitions and sending emails.
I think I was just trolled, but I'm going to flame back, cause all good D&D players know that a troll's weakness is flame. (I really need to remember the format commands for bbc.)
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Raiiden
Gallente
BAD WOLF INC.
Maru Ka'ge
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Posted - 2009.09.23 20:06:00 -
[38]
the reason thier so excited about wardeccing carebears is because when they come to lowsec or 0.0 i f!@# them in thier a!@#$#$ and give snotty noses. plus theres no reason to wardec a pirate, we're already flashy red, unless you are a va!@#%na and cant stop expounding the benefits of non flashy redness. in which case you fail at pvp period. Furthermore lawl, you fail to see that somebody who is in fact pathetic, and a "griefer" as you put it, only feeds off of your overt/covert/pervert contempt. The only way you're going to beat the pirates... is to become one yourself. =D
its survival of the fittest noobs.
YARR
TROOF!
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Tri`Zeem |
Dawts
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers
Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.23 20:57:00 -
[39]
Skex Relbore I haven't checked you out ingame, but if you're not hiding in an NPC corp already, I'll likely be seeing you in space.
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Kurfin
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Posted - 2009.09.23 21:01:00 -
[40]
I hate to burst all your pirate bubbles, but a lot of carebears when wardeced dock up (at least the sensible ones do). You'll have a load of active decs and the war targets either won't log on, except for station based activities, or will just log on with alts.
And as for all the lovely pimped ships mission runners use, if you can afford a dead space fitted nightmare you can afford the bill to set up an alliance. Which for the would be pirate means big war dec fee, and no guarantee that target will come out to play.
You may get an initial increase in targets, but when it settles down you'll just end up station camping someone who's gone off to work and left his toon logged in
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Dawts
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers
Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.23 21:10:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Kurfin
I hate to burst all your pirate bubbles, but a lot of carebears when wardeced dock up (at least the sensible ones do). You'll have a load of active decs and the war targets either won't log on, except for station based activities, or will just log on with alts.
And as for all the lovely pimped ships mission runners use, if you can afford a dead space fitted nightmare you can afford the bill to set up an alliance. Which for the would be pirate means big war dec fee, and no guarantee that target will come out to play.
You may get an initial increase in targets, but when it settles down you'll just end up station camping someone who's gone off to work and left his toon logged in
So who is affected more?
The guy who can't play on his main.
The guy spending a ton of isk to make an alliance, which imo doesn't really matter in terms of deccing.
or the guy who pays a couple million and disrupts your normal gameplay, which for whatever reason is usually the goal.
Just because they aren't losing their ships doesn't mean they aren't losing.
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Kurfin
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Posted - 2009.09.23 21:36:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Dawts
So who is affected more?
The guy who can't play on his main.
The guy spending a ton of isk to make an alliance, which imo doesn't really matter in terms of deccing.
or the guy who pays a couple million and disrupts your normal gameplay, which for whatever reason is usually the goal.
Just because they aren't losing their ships doesn't mean they aren't losing.
You can drop your main out of corp, and carry on missioning. As long as you don't drop everyone out of corp it's not an exploit. Losing 11% on bounties and mission rewards for a week or two is less damaging than losing the lot by staying docked up.
And for the deccer, yes you may be disrupting their operation but you won't be making any kills either. How high is your boredom threshold?
Anyone who knows what they are doing is still going to be incredibly hard to successfully engage in non-consensual pvp, in a mission fit ship. This doesn't really change anything, except it will probably lead to characters with some very long corp historys.
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Dawts
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers
Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.23 21:57:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Dawts on 23/09/2009 22:00:19
So you avoided my question.
Who loses more?
My 2 million for a dec (lemme know if that's wrong, we only dec alliances so idc the corp deccing cost)
Or the mission running losing 11% of his mission income for a whole week.
Also, in regards to "boredom". I normally play d2 windowed when station camping, or get on newgrounds and play flash games. Boredom isn't a factor to me, and shouldn't be to anyone engaging in high-sec PvP.
Protip: mediaplayers with the "always on top" (VLC I'm looking at you) are great for watching a movie/episode/pron/anime/animepron/sports while playing.
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Ann Drogynous
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Posted - 2009.09.23 22:24:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Dawts
Edited by: Dawts on 23/09/2009 22:00:19
So you avoided my question.
Who loses more?
My 2 million for a dec (lemme know if that's wrong, we only dec alliances so idc the corp deccing cost)
Or the mission running losing 11% of his mission income for a whole week.
Also, in regards to "boredom". I normally play d2 windowed when station camping, or get on newgrounds and play flash games. Boredom isn't a factor to me, and shouldn't be to anyone engaging in high-sec PvP.
Protip: mediaplayers with the "always on top" (VLC I'm looking at you) are great for watching a movie/episode/pron/anime/animepron/sports while playing.
Hmm, this wasn't exactly a great example. If you are sat there playing something other than Eve then we have to wonder who exactly is having their Eve time disrupted but meh.
@ Kurfin I really think you should watch your back when Dawts is around. I just looked him up on battleclinic and he is a nasty piece of work with an awesome kill death ratio *ahem* If you are not careful him and three of his alliance mates might come and gank your velator. Jeepers creepers, how many noob ships, shuttles and unarmed pods does it take to pad a killboard?
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Hyveres
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.09.23 22:51:00 -
[45]
Well the classic method is simply playing HoN and training long term skills while wardecced :) Or using the wormhole altcorp toons to mine & plex with while the missionrunner is wardecced.
Eve is just something you dont quit.. but playing it isnt that important for most highsec carebears like me. And if war becomes a real longterm problem one can always just move to 0.0 since its safer and more profitable :)
"Subtlety is a thing for philosophy, not combat. If you're going to kill someone, you might as well kill them a whole lot."
- Vulcan Raven, The Last Days Of Foxhound |
Sloan X
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Posted - 2009.09.23 23:20:00 -
[46]
if npc corps are taxed.
then outlaws with -5 or more should not collect bounties from concord.
why does concord pay/fund outlaws.
::siren:: CONCORD WTF PWNZORRrrRZZZ your ship for smartbombing miners, but BTW heres a FAT check for killing RATs"
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Ava Starfire
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Posted - 2009.09.24 01:00:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Sloan X
if npc corps are taxed.
then outlaws with -5 or more should not collect bounties from concord.
why does concord pay/fund outlaws.
::siren:: CONCORD WTF PWNZORRrrRZZZ your ship for smartbombing miners, but BTW heres a FAT check for killing RATs"
Ill be ok with this, if they add bounties to mining ships.
Space is fun! |
Facial Wipe
Amarr
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2009.09.24 01:53:00 -
[48]
You should pay for the safety from war decs.
The tears are mmm mmm good.
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Molly Jolie
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.09.24 02:27:00 -
[49]
11% tax on npc players really isn't an issue. players will just create their own corp to get all their isk. but, honestly, i thought this was the biggest sandbox? why even waste the man hours to tax neutral npc players when their are far bigger issues in this game?
Never Gonna Give You Up.... |
Kaylee Juuna
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Posted - 2009.09.24 03:43:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Kaylee Juuna on 24/09/2009 03:44:29
Oh god, these pirate tears are hilarious 
Awww, what are you going to do? Threaten some of my pixels with a 'wardec'? You act just like the kids that went to my high school; passive aggressive because it makes you feel more tough. I understand, though. It's completely reasonable that adolescents have to show how 'powerful' they are.
Also, "Blah blah etc, I'll be seeing you in space." AHAHAHAHA!! IS THAT A JOKE?! What, am I supposed to feel threatened? Have fun losing 80m worth of suicide ganking ship, I'll be fine replacing a 5 million ISK ship. The funny thing is, you can't win; you get angry, and I just laugh. LoL!
Good lord, you guys are a riot.
Wait, wait, get ready for a reply like 'I'm going to gank you, pod you, and shoot your corpse.'
Hahaha, this is side-splitting
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Chunky Milk
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Posted - 2009.09.24 07:03:00 -
[51]
Skex - That's why I'm glad CCP isn't just in it for the money (though they probs are) but at least they arn't laying down to all demands of these casual gamers... If i get bored and feel like killing a hauler i should (and am) able to. If i find some industrial corps pos in high sec with a whole lot of expensive stuff there, then yes, i would like to war dec them to take their stuff.
This game isn't wow, part of this game is about griefing.
The thing that makes this game better then others is that your not 100% safe anywhere & that if you do get ganked it can (generally is) a big deal because you can't just get your stuff back like other games, thus it means something to be killed.
EvE is purely a pvp game be it pew pew, market warfare whatever, it is not a quests based game, thus when you undock you accept the fact your pvping, that is versing other players.
Best quote i've seen is
"It's not pirating"
"It's Suprise pvp"
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Nihiliax
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Posted - 2009.09.24 11:04:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Chunky Milk
Skex - That's why I'm glad CCP isn't just in it for the money (though they probs are) but at least they arn't laying down to all demands of these casual gamers... If i get bored and feel like killing a hauler i should (and am) able to. If i find some industrial corps pos in high sec with a whole lot of expensive stuff there, then yes, i would like to war dec them to take their stuff.
This game isn't wow, part of this game is about griefing.
The thing that makes this game better then others is that your not 100% safe anywhere & that if you do get ganked it can (generally is) a big deal because you can't just get your stuff back like other games, thus it means something to be killed.
EvE is purely a pvp game be it pew pew, market warfare whatever, it is not a quests based game, thus when you undock you accept the fact your pvping, that is versing other players.
Best quote i've seen is
"It's not pirating"
"It's Suprise pvp"
Hmmm, don't want to totally burst your bubble fella but I would think that attacking haulers and war-deccing high-sec industrialists so you can shoot them and take their stuff is as close to being 100% safe as makes no difference. I mean I guess there is a chance you might end up with a watery eye if one of their mining lasers catches you at a dodgy angle but apart from that...
Please people, do not confuse high-sec war-deccing shenanigans with piracy - you don't even risk the security status hit. It is the easiest thing in the world for the inept to pick on the defenseless in order to make themselves feel competent but believe me there is a greater sense of satisfaction from killing someone that is actually prepared to shoot back.
I must admit I am not particularly enamoured of the proposed change but that's only because I don't relish the idea of having to carebear on my alt for 11% longer to pay for my copious pvp losses but hey, I will probably just take the one-man corp route. I might even stick my HQ in Amamake or somewhere in the hope some high-sec gankers do decide to dec me and station camp.
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Toron Cain
Power Seed Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.09.24 11:16:00 -
[53]
I say they should tax based on the length a person is in an npc corp such as the first month 1% second month 2% third month 4% fourth month 8 % fifth month 16% and so fourth and so on until it reaches 100% . As far as the other careers such as trading , couriers , pirates , and all those guys just tax their wallets for any isk exchanged . We all have to pay income tax no matter what business we are in . Then the player can decide for himself when its just to expensive to stay in an npc corp. You might get little 1 and 2 man corps but hey AT LEAST THEY CAN BE WAR DEC TARGETS THEN.
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Skex Relbore
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Posted - 2009.09.24 13:13:00 -
[54]
Ooooh I'm quaking in my boots I've been threatened by the mighty Dawts who will demonstrate his epeen might by ganking my sub 1.6mil sp virtual character in his virtual spaceship.
Careful though I actually equip something that your typical victims don't. Guns.
See if you kill me it's expected but if I get lucky and take you out, welp that would be embarasing wouldn't it?
Why so serious anyway? CCP is going to do what CCP is going to do I'm just having a little fun stiring up greifer tears. After all the tears of hypocrits are so much more satisfying than those of the innocent.
BTW if it makes you feel any better I got killed for what will probably be the first of many times last night by Inka Kaoru, Grats on the kill and thanks for the fun.
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Nihiliax
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Posted - 2009.09.24 13:23:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Skex Relbore
Ooooh I'm quaking in my boots I've been threatened by the mighty Dawts who will demonstrate his epeen might by ganking my sub 1.6mil sp virtual character in his virtual spaceship.
Careful though I actually equip something that your typical victims don't. Guns.
I wouldn't worry about it too much Skex, as someone has already pointed out he is only marginally more successful at killing carebears than they are at killing him.
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Cyrus Doul
RDK Research Inc.
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Posted - 2009.09.24 15:17:00 -
[56]
to those of you with the 3 months then dropped into fw npc. i posted it before on the csm forum i think. instead of fleet war drop them in faction pirate. no bounties on them though. the isk farmers would just kill themselves all day...
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Dawts
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers
Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.24 16:06:00 -
[57]
Ann Drogynous, we can't pick what ships our targets use. There is a reason they are flying noob ships and shuttles. They don't want to lose thier other ships.
Molly Jolie, that was the WHOLE point of the tax, getting people into player made corps.
Skex, I doubt we'd deck you anyway there is a 100 member minimum for privs to deck a corp/alliance. I was trying to prove a point, you are responsible for the things you say and do in and out of game. That's what makes this game fun and unique. If you hide in an NPC corp you are blocking off a whole part of the game CCP wants. Risk vs reward.
You say it isn't smart business, I say that it shows integrity on CCPs part for sticking true to their vision of the game.
And in regards to my kills/deaths. I enjoy combat, I'll engage ships that I can't beat, because it's fun to do. Of course in true EvE fashion, if I dock up to avoid a fight I can't win, then I'm a sissy etc.
Pick a side, you either like pvp and will do it win or lose, or you'll dock up becuase your spaceships are srs bsnss to you and the heartbeak of losing a ship is too much for you.
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FlyinS
Caldari
Planetary Industry and Trade Organization
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Posted - 2009.09.24 16:14:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Lotus Sutra
Corp hopping isn't an issue to CCP. Opening a corp, then closing it because of a war dec and opening a brand new one with the same players etc is bannable though.
After lengthy discussions with several GMs because of a corp that was doing this repeatedly when we decced them, I can say this is incorrect.
CCP sees this as perfectly fine.
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Daemonspirit
An Android Lust
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Posted - 2009.09.24 16:58:00 -
[59]
War-dec immunity - Alts train up 12 min. skill - Corp management, and as long as they don't "close the corp" because of a wardec, and keep it open w/their alts - moving between corps is no problem...
11% tax - actually comes out to about 3.5% if you salvage and loot, its only 11% if ALL the income on the toon comes from mission rewards, mission time bonus rewards and mission rat bounties.
I can't be arsed to link the thread from the Test Server Feedback forum, but basically the % of (active) players in NPC Corps, with >2M skillpoints is 21%.
I ask you guys this:
How many are alts of neg.sec status players/0.0 players/ or any other kind of alt that someone has rolled/train something that has taken them over the 2M skillpoint total? How many of those are Traders/Miners/Industrialists who will not be effected by this change at all...
I am betting that of the thousands of players (10's of thousands?) - that the exclusion applies to, won't budge. Of the thousands of characters that the tax would hit, the majority of them are going to be alts of toons that will have no need to join an ongoing player corp (because their mains are already in one...) - or whatever and will just make a 1 man mission running corp - and back to the war-dec immunity from above.
Its my humble opinion that this change will do nothing to generate any statistically significant change in the Corp status of players.
Good luck with this change, I think that a Corp Recruitment Channel on the Neo-Con, bumpable once every week (by the CEO/Recruiter only), updated weekly, with ads removed after 10 days with no posts, would do a FAR better job of getting players out of the NPC corps and into Player Corps...
This changes nothing . . .
ôEveryone has a right to be stupid; some people just abuse the privilege.ö |
Ann Drogynous
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Posted - 2009.09.24 17:25:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Dawts
Ann Drogynous, we can't pick what ships our targets use. There is a reason they are flying noob ships and shuttles. They don't want to lose thier other ships.
While it may be true that you cannot pick what ships your targets use it still doesn't explain why, unless for padding killboard stats, it takes four of you to pop a velator. What, were you struggling to break his tank with your Harbinger and had to call for backup?
Obviously I'm just busting your balls a bit here but if you're gonna hand out "protips" it pays to be pro.
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