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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 7 post(s)
Pattern Clarc Celtic Anarchy	Posted - 2009.09.23 14:49:00 - [1] I believe battleship artillery tracking and optimal range could use a boost. Perhaps introducing a new higher tier artillery? Also, any chance of a review of the Tempest, and Minmatar battleship niches in general? ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Celtic Anarchy	Posted - 2009.09.23 16:07:00 - [2] Originally by: Arkady Sadik Regarding projectile ammo, if "choose your damage type" is a design goal for projectiles, then allow just that. Fusion and Phased Plasma show how it's done: One "main" damage type, another "supplementary" damage type at roughly 20% total damage. The "supplementary" damage type below has been chosen as the "opposite" of the main damage type - extreme damage types get a medium damage type as complementary, mediums an extreme. Finally, EX being the Minmatar racial advantage, swap Fusion and EMP (but please, only if you fix the general "EM is such a good damage type" problem above :-)). Fusion (12 total, 9 ex, 3 th) EMP (11 total, 8 em, 3 ki) Phased Plasma (10 total, 8 th, 2 ex) Titanium Sabot (9 total, 7 ki, 2 em) Depleted Uranium (8 total, 6 ex, 2 th) Proton (7 total, 5 em, 2 ki) Nuclear (6 total, 5 th, 1 ex) Carbonized Lead (5 total, 4 ki, 1 em) This would need some sanity checks still, esp. expected damage output vs. normal armor/shield resists and normal T2 resists. Pretty much this. At the moment, it's some hybrid between the way missile users choose ammo, and the way rail users choose there ammo. It needs to be skewed more to the way missile users choose ammo, with extreme range and damage ammo remaining, but with a number of ammo types with roughly the same range and damage, but with clearly different damage types. Most of the time the advantage of a using a particular damage type is negated by the fact that reload time is +cycle time + 10 seconds (for blasters and hybrids anyway), and the other fact that another ammo type may just do more damage due to having a higher damage total. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Celtic Anarchy	Posted - 2009.09.27 10:54:00 - [3] Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 27/09/2009 10:55:22 1650mm Siege Cannon II. ò 1650mm Base stats (vs1400mm) ò Damage mod: 9.05625 (7.245) ò ROF: 27.169 (23.625 ò Tracking: 0.0090000 (Same as old 1400mm II) ò Optimal: 52800 (48000) ò Falloff: 35000 (35000) ò Powergrid: 4155 (3575) ò CPU: 50 (47) Although a feasible 1650mm Tempest fit can be achieved with rigs, it will be the Maelstrom that would gleam the biggest benefit from this new tier of turrets. 10% more DPS, 10% Optimal range, the same clip size and tracking as current 1400mm's and a respectable 25% increase to alpha, the 1650mm Maelstrom becomes the main battle, minmatar sniper battleship. 1650mm Maelstrom in Yellow, current Tempest in green. Also, bare in mind that a Hyperion would be dealing compatible damage at greater ranges. To see more visit the link below... ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Celtic Anarchy	Posted - 2009.09.27 11:44:00 - [4] Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 27/09/2009 11:44:48 Main complaints... Not enough damage... Not enough range... Not enough tracking... Hit quality decreases as well as hit chance at fall off (which means your alpha means less) So we have a gun less than all the major races, lets fix most of the problems with the new gun, 1400mm becomes the mid tier, mid range turret (which to be honest, it always was comparable with 350mm - apart from tracking) where as we separate the niches of the Tempest and the Maelstrom with a new gun. Or... feel free to gimp yourselves by clinging onto lolracialtrait's that clearly don't work at battleship level. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Celtic Anarchy	Posted - 2009.09.30 16:49:00 - [5] Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 30/09/2009 16:52:44 Either increase large AC fall off by 30%-50% or large AC optimal range by 200%-250% (preferably an optimal range boost, too many ships with fall off bonuses would require rebalancing) Figure out if a 6 low slot armour tanker competes with any of it's peers. Asses the relationship between the Maelstrom/Tempest (if they both snipe, how do they do it differently.) Personally, I would love to see a 8/7/4 Tempest with the Maelstroms ROF bonus changed to a 7.5% damage bonus. Decide if it's worth having the Fleet Tempest in the database as it stands, if so, please explain your reasoning, if not please change back to 8/6/6 or 8/7/5 (far too many ships can do what it does better). Currently, the Mach gets 100km falloff using 3 tracking enhancers... Carbonised Lead is really awful, also, instead of a bunch of different tracking values for all but EMP/Fusion, could you just give a +20% tracking bonus to the middling ammo types? Fix T2 high damage ammo (for long and short projectile and hybrid turrets) ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Celtic Anarchy	Posted - 2009.09.30 18:04:00 - [6] With 6 Tracking enhancers, the Mach gets 162km optimal and 152km Fall off using Tremor on 1400mm's With 800mm's using barrage, 9km optimal range, 104km fall off. Bug or feature? ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Celtic Anarchy	Posted - 2009.10.01 11:28:00 - [7] So you get +75% more alpha and now you complain that this isn't an improvement? /o\ This is why you will not get nice things. As for the tracking enhancer/computer changes, fall off does not currently stacking penalise correctly. I'm not sure whether this is by design or an oversight but the moron who mentioned that no one would ever max out in fittings to capitalise on stacking effects must be pretty ****ing new to Eve. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Celtic Anarchy	Posted - 2009.10.01 14:17:00 - [8] Originally by: Volir What if CCP changed the damage formula in falloff? optimal 100% damage 1 falloff 75% damage 2 falloff 0% damage A formula that is similar to this is. 1- 1/8 * (x^2) - 1/16 * (x^3) where x is the number of fall-offs. I mean, you don't want to put that formula straight into Eve obviously, but for the point of discussion, look at the graph I will link. It hits ~80% at 1 falloff and 0% at 2. Linked graph from wolfram alpha This makes fighting in fall-off a lot more attractive. You might as well just increase AC optimal to previous optimal + Falloff, at least that way, not every other single turret system gets the same added potency beyond optimal range just for the sake of making fall off relevant at battleship level. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Celtic Anarchy	Posted - 2009.10.04 16:32:00 - [9] AC's need more range (and more damage than lasers at point blank range) Artillery can't have the poorest damage, the poorest tracking and the poorest range, even if there cappless, have high alpha and fall off. Something has to give. The ammo tracking bonus isn't great, it's a bit overpowered for AC's and it doesn't do enough for Artillery in the land where tremor and EMP > all. Instead, either increase artillery tracking or optimal range by 25% or provide ship bonuses to either the tempest or the maelstrom to achieve the same result And/Or introduce a new tier of artillery. The Alpha and clip size increase is fine. For PVE, splitting your guns is defiantly the way to go. Tracking Computer fall off bonuses likely don't work, and enhancers/ambit rigs require a stacking penalty to the fall off multiplier. If not, I'll be sniping with EMP. It would be nice to get some cycle of feedback going but I'm not going to hold my breath... ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Celtic Anarchy	Posted - 2009.10.05 10:11:00 - [10] Originally by: Dinamita Tona Apart of FACT that we WON'T agree what changes for minmatar ships are best ones (that is due the FACT that each of us use ships in HIS OWN way for his own task, that's direct consequence of so known versatility of minmatar ships not good for anything but can be used for anything) Biggest problem is that DEV's have no clue how to fix problems arised since Nerfing era. If minmatar ships shall have any bigger role in future of this game, their ships SHOULD be specialized like for every other race. Someone already mentioned - dedicated laser, missile, blaster, drone boats. Also dedicated active, pasive shield boats, dedicated active buffer armor boats. There is 0 dedicated minmatar ships. There were dedicated nano ships, but you know what happened. Long ago tempest was fearsome ship, vaga same. Today they are only shadows. On other hand versatility on minmatar ships is not always there, some ships, for example sleipnir have bonuses that may be aplied only in non versatile fit. Of course it can be fited otherwise, but then 1 of bonuses get wasted. Anyway dear DEV's, first of all think exactly what for minmatar's are. What is / should be their role. Caldari are PVE, gallente dps, amar tank. Minmatars versatile but under conditions. As stated here, minmatars need to have **** load of skills at highest level just to undock. And ill say again, SISI changes are just cosmetic ones. So what is needed to be done? - first of all neutral DEV's standings towards all races ( we all know that is not case atm ) - then complete neutral review of current mechanics - then suggest changes that may actually improve things - then test it on SISI. I have feeling we had only process 4 here. Processes preceding were lost somewhere on the way. 1 of good changes would be dropping shield boost bonus on all minmatar ships for something more useful like damage bonus. So that ships could be really versatile as you implicate. /Signed ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Celtic Anarchy	Posted - 2009.10.05 11:51:00 - [11] Just for everyone else, 1400mm cycle time with 3 gyro's is about 16.5 seconds. Splitting your weapons means that less DPS is wasted on overkill, which might be useful for dealing with frigs and cruisers in missions. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Celtic Anarchy	Posted - 2009.10.05 12:30:00 - [12] Originally by: Tiger's Spirit "I dont understood you guys. Splited weapon not solve anything. What terrible idea, who figured out this ? If You split your weapons nothing will change. Not in PvP nothing in PvE. Do you really not get it? If a frigate explodes after 1 volley from only 4 of your turrets on say a maelstrom, then you can make 2 frigates explode in one volley, instead of making 1 frigate explode with alot of wasted damage otherwise known as overkill. Maxed out, you'd probably have enough alpha to make explode +/-10 NPC frigates using EMP, per volley. Instead of grouping all your guns to destroy a single target, then wait 16 seconds whilst the guns de-activate, assign each turret a target, and make 8 (depending on hit quality) ships explode at once with the minimum of overkill. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Celtic Anarchy	Posted - 2009.10.05 13:38:00 - [13] Originally by: Tiger's Spirit Man 1 gun can kill a frig without change. I need to make 6x1 group ? /sarcasm off But a full group can't kill a cruiser. So nothing changes just use your brain. I'm pretty sure you can one shot an untanked cruiser with EMP after the changes. Either way, ungrouped guns mean than you don't have to wait 16 seconds before doing damage again. Theoretical DPS stays the same, congratulations for figuring that one out on your own. (Although EMP and various other ammo types have been increased and the reduction in reload frequency means your doing a lot more damage more often.) ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Celtic Anarchy	Posted - 2009.10.05 15:17:00 - [14] So people can't really understand how ungrouped guns avoid overkill?? ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Celtic Anarchy	Posted - 2009.10.05 15:43:00 - [15] Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 05/10/2009 15:43:55 So much nonesense. So, your solo Tempest with artillery can not one shot an RR'ed battleship. So... how about a gang of tempests and maelstroms? To many people are looking at the changes through a prism. LOL at the if this target as x hp analogy. That argument is totally circular - situational - hypothetical bull**. What if the targets had 10k EHP, and your Gang A dealt 50k damage per volley every 16 sec and the other gang did only 5k damage every 1.6 seconds? Well after the first second, you can technically remove 5 targets from the universe whilst the other gang is still chipping away from the other gang. Obviously, this is bull, but this is what you **s have reduced the argument to. I find it quite amusing the resistance to the alpha change, I guess this mess is no less than you deserve. Also, QFT Originally by:** Dinamita Tona Apart of FACT that we WON'T agree what changes for minmatar ships are best ones (that is due the FACT that each of us use ships in HIS OWN way for his own task, that's direct consequence of so known versatility of minmatar ships not good for anything but can be used for anything) Biggest problem is that DEV's have no clue how to fix problems arised since Nerfing era. If minmatar ships shall have any bigger role in future of this game, their ships SHOULD be specialized like for every other race. Someone already mentioned - dedicated laser, missile, blaster, drone boats. Also dedicated active, pasive shield boats, dedicated active buffer armor boats. There is 0 dedicated minmatar ships. There were dedicated nano ships, but you know what happened. Long ago tempest was fearsome ship, vaga same. Today they are only shadows. On other hand versatility on minmatar ships is not always there, some ships, for example sleipnir have bonuses that may be aplied only in non versatile fit. Of course it can be fited otherwise, but then 1 of bonuses get wasted. Anyway dear DEV's, first of all think exactly what for minmatar's are. What is / should be their role. Caldari are PVE, gallente dps, amar tank. Minmatars versatile but under conditions. As stated here, minmatars need to have **** load of skills at highest level just to undock. And ill say again, SISI changes are just cosmetic ones. So what is needed to be done? - first of all neutral DEV's standings towards all races ( we all know that is not case atm ) - then complete neutral review of current mechanics - then suggest changes that may actually improve things - then test it on SISI. I have feeling we had only process 4 here. Processes preceding were lost somewhere on the way. 1 of good changes would be dropping shield boost bonus on all minmatar ships for something more useful like damage bonus. So that ships could be really versatile as you implicate. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.11 00:20:00 - [16] ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.12 10:41:00 - [17] Originally by: Elaron Originally by: Seriously Bored Originally by: Pattern Clarc Without a comment from CCP any time recently, it certainly feels that way. Maybe (hopefully) we all got sick of arguing ourselves in circles without any official comment. I expect we won't see anything until the next scrum iteration - unless Nozh is calling it done and has moved on to other projects. I'm just expecting Nozh to hero this one the weekend before launch, in a similar fashion to tech 3, with very little changing from this iteration and very few of us happy. I would like to be proved wrong, however the ship balance threads are distingtly lacking firstly, a cycle of feedback, and any sort of outlined goal or vision that would lead to some sort of directed feedback on the part of the player base. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.15 09:47:00 - [18] Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 15/10/2009 09:51:55 People forget that as long as the Tempest has 6 lows, it will forever be a pretty ****ty ship for anything substantial. 1) Poorest tank 2) Less likely to fit enough damage mods to compensate. That combined with the fact that there are just so many more ships that are superior armour tankers, (double the number of armour battleships as compared to shield tankers) the tempest just falls behind. Most serious pilots consider the phoon better for close and the Maelstrom better for everything else. I've got a shield tanking solution (see signature) combined with a whole bunch of other stuff that should help the Tempest find it's niche. As everyone has there own way of flying this ship, I can imagine not everyone would be happy, however it'll be an improvement as I don't think that until theres a slot layout change with the Tempest anyone will be happy with it as the issue is one of relative performance within niches when compared to there peers. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.15 11:34:00 - [19] Originally by: Nuts Nougat Originally by: Pattern Clarc Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 15/10/2009 09:51:55 People forget that as long as the Tempest has 6 lows, it will forever be a pretty **ty ship for anything substantial. 1) Poorest tank 2) Less likely to fit enough damage mods to compensate. That combined with the fact that there are just so many more ships that are superior armour tankers, (double the number of armour battleships as compared to shield tankers) the tempest just falls behind. Most serious pilots consider the phoon better for close and the Maelstrom better for everything else. I've got a shield tanking solution (see signature) combined with a whole bunch of other stuff that should help the Tempest find it's niche. As everyone has there own way of flying this ship, I can imagine not everyone would be happy, however it'll be an improvement as I don't think that until theres a slot layout change with the Tempest anyone will be happy with it as the issue is one of relative performance within niches when compared to there peers. Or just give do nothing to the tempest and give it another turret and grid+cpu to fit it (and fix autocannons). It will do a ****ed amount of dps, and the drawback will be a crappy tank. Seems fair to me. With another turret you'll be a better sniper, but you'll really only do about 30-40 more dps, you'll still be out ganked by alot of things with way more EHP than you. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.16 09:08:00 - [20] Originally by: Mayweather Edstonbery Edited by: Mayweather Edstonbery on 15/10/2009 21:03:09 Don't you guys get it? Nozh isn't going to reply because Nozh didn't like the feedback this thread generated. He has discovered that the problem is far more complex than he thought it was, and is now not going to reply to any of the ideas in here and in a few weeks he will just un-sticky this thread and watch it die. It's the exact same thing he did here and here. He probably had a spare one or two days to come up with something, now he's probably on to official domination stuff. Sad really, in an internet spaceship game, the last thing you'd thought would be put into the back seat would be the spaceships. Originally by: RedSplat 1KM FALLOFF IS NOT EQUAL IN USEFULNESS TO 1KM OPTIMAL And this, some guys need to drop the fall off tinted glasses already. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.17 17:05:00 - [21] Originally by: Pattern Clarc ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.18 17:44:00 - [22] Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 18/10/2009 17:44:17 It's a 16 second ROF duration on Sisi with 3 gyro's FYI. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.18 17:59:00 - [23] Originally by: Kepakh Originally by: Pattern Clarc Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 18/10/2009 17:44:17 It's a 16 second ROF duration on Sisi with 3 gyro's FYI. ...and? Completely irrelevant. Originally by: Kepakh Yes, you do the damage instantly with turrets but what about next target? Will you able to shoot it or you will be just sitting there watiting for your guns to fire again? Imagine you are supposed to shoot frigate targets with your arties: You have just 1 volleyd a ship and now you have to wait wait for 23s with current 1400mm to move on your next target. After the changes, you still 1 shot the same ship but now you will need to wait 46s to fire again. These changes mean that you will have litteraly wait 23s more before you can move to next target. As I said, those things look good on paper only. It is another example how detached the game developement has become. With 1400mm II's, max skills, and 3 gyros (as per normal sniper fit), you'll be waiting +/-16 seconds to "shot" again, an increase of +/-7 seconds, not 23 seconds. As you don't seem to deal with facts, I suppose you can consider it irrelevent. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.18 18:18:00 - [24] Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 18/10/2009 18:18:47 Originally by: Kepakh Edited by: Kepakh on 18/10/2009 18:13:17 Originally by: Pattern Clarc With 1400mm II's, max skills, and 3 gyros (as per normal sniper fit), you'll be waiting +/-16 seconds to "shot" again, an increase of +/-7 seconds, not 23 seconds. As you don't seem to deal with facts, I suppose you can consider it irrelevent. It is indeed irrelevant. You still have to wait twice as long no matter what ship you fly or how it is fitted. 23s is base ROF of T2 1400mm to exlude effects of bonuses. Don't post if you can't make or get the point. +75% as long. And the extra 7 seconds isn't as big a deal as your making it out to be. Don't post a whine about stuff that "look good on paper only" when your numbers have nothing to do with every day flying and experiances. And stop posting different characters. (yes, we all recognise the posting style) ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.18 20:21:00 - [25] Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 18/10/2009 20:21:54 Originally by: Roland Thorne Originally by: Elaron Originally by: Roland Thorne If one is flying a vagabond with autos, sure it will be good. Otherwise, if someone has the skills to fly a zealot, they will fly one. That is exactly what is happening now with matar pilots changing to amarr. So ... on the one hand, you're saying that falloff is great, and on the other hand you're saying that Matari pilots are swapping to Amarr because they're weapons are better. No. I'm saying indirectly that guys who are trained for blasters would loooove to be able to use falloff on someone who is out of optimal. Projectiles already do that. Nope, blaster pilots are quite happy with 11km optimal (Neutrons + Null) vs 6km Optimal (800mm's with barrage) and heaps of fall off, outdamaging minmatar battleships out to warp distruptor range (lol fall off). The knowledge that within optimal range, your probably out damaging everyone else makes up for the lack of fall off or optimal. Autocannons +falloff, not so much. Your playing hopscotch depending on whatevers shooting at you. You might as well just train lasers and know exactly where you stand. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.18 20:44:00 - [26] Whatever some blaster pilots are whining about, it certainly isn't a lack of optimal or fall off. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.19 12:03:00 - [27] Originally by: General Meridus Originally by: Kepakh Originally by: Pattern Clarc +75% as long. And the extra 7 seconds isn't as big a deal as your making it out to be. Omg...you're either a troll or not very bright :-/ Fly safe. Obviously haven't been in the game all that long. How ya been Pattern? Been a while since ISS hasn't it. It has been a heck of a long time, approaching 5 years in Eve atm and about 3 since ISS. I'm pretty good though this thread is a mess however. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.19 12:59:00 - [28] Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 19/10/2009 13:03:10 Originally by: Caldor Mansi 440 DPS tank on uniform damage and 69K EHP Compared to my Hyperion fit, with 800 dps and a 900dps tank? And even then, the Hyperion is only worth while in a tiny number of rapidly diminishing situations. The only reason why the Maelstrom would be used instead is if the pilot was using faction mods, crystals and boosters against a small gang, and had backup, and even then, one curse out ruin your day. It gets a lot worse when you compare the Tempest with the Typhoon, Maelstrom or just any armour tanking turreted platform out there as the Tempest just doesn't perform any role well in comparison with it's peers. So it's not just a case of making the weapons better or boosting an aspect or niche of the game. Your really going to have to figure out what the tempest should do different to the Phoon and Maelstrom, and design slots and bonuses around it. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.19 13:37:00 - [29] Originally by: Caldor Mansi Originally by: Pattern Clarc Compared to my Hyperion fit, with 800 dps Except your will deal about 0 DPS at Maelstrom most beneficial range. What, fall off range? I think it was proven somewhere that your better off using 1200mm's Artillery on a Maelstrom at any range beyond 30km when you take into account tracking and hit quality. Then you compare that to a Hyperion with 350mm's, or a Rokh with Neutron blasters, this fall off argument gets even more laughable. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.19 14:19:00 - [30] Originally by: Caldor Mansi Originally by: Pattern Clarc What, fall off range? Even with Ions, which you won't be able to fit a full rack with dual reppers, your raw damage will be significantly lower than Mael's and due fall-off reduced to about 40%. So yes, in a matter of fact you will still deal some negligable damage but not relevant enough. Mael on the other hand, will be capable do deal about 75% of his nominal and much higher damage. I like how you totally ignored the rest of the post. And also, in before pulse/tachyon laser beam's. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.19 15:29:00 - [31] Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 19/10/2009 15:29:50 For everyone else. At 36km, in Caldor Mansi maelstrom setup, you'll be doing just over 300 dps at 30km with true fall off taken into account. With 1200mm's using RF EMP at 30km, Just under 600 DPS. A similar figure with 350mm's and CN Antimatter tanking about as much on the Hyperion. More than enough to make up for the tracking short fall it might have against cruisers at that range, and if you expect to fight at closer ranges, then blasters are better. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.19 17:19:00 - [32] Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 19/10/2009 17:19:51 Originally by: Caldor Mansi You're quite stupid, really. That won you a nice place in my ignore list. Oh, and btw good luck at hitting moving cruisers with EMP in your arties especialy while still being in point range... Beyond 800mm optimal + falloff range, you'll be better off with 1200mm's even against cruisers - fact. Closer in and your better off in a megathron or Rokh with Neutrons. This chart doesn't even take into account fall off hit quality degradation. Now please go back to what ever cave you crawled out of. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.19 17:36:00 - [33] Originally by: Caldor Mansi Edited by: Caldor Mansi on 19/10/2009 17:26:08 Originally by: Pattern Clarc Now please go back to what ever cave you crawled out of. Lmao. You little ****** including T2 ogres in your calcs... And 90% web + 400 sig radius. Would sentries make you feel better? (little would change to the chart either way) And based on your posts I assume where you do your PvP, HAC's PERMA MWD within warp disruptor web range right? And still, it doesn't change the fact that under that circumstances, the Maelstrom is the worse ship suited to what ever task you've twisted this argument to be based on your totally lame 3 slot tank fit. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.19 18:27:00 - [34] With the fixed signature radius and without drones, also including other racial ships for flavor. Remember, this is without the fall off hit quality degradation. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.20 01:50:00 - [35] Originally by: Gamrikis Edited by: Gamrikis on 20/10/2009 00:00:15 Why in the hell is anyone trying to promote 1200mm arties. Your chart tells me nothing about 1200mm. What does tell me that they are crap is my sp + testing on the test server. The 1200 will not do above crap damage or hit under 28 km if the target is not webbed. I have 12 mil sp in artillery alone so it is not my skills and a target (A tempest) moving towards you should be easy pray. HAHA guess again. Oh ya I had three tracking computers for these 40 odd tests i put the 1200's through. Charts are deceiving when the info used is not tested. ps getting a solid hit at 35 is tough. Get on the test server and stop EFTing and charting. 1200mm's are aweful, there have poorerest optimal of any long range, and the same tracking as Tachyons. However, I was illustrating that your better off with them if you intend to fight at 6+30km (800mm autocannon optimal + fall off) because optimal range >>>> fall off. And yeah, I can stick a finger up ass and decide if I like something after a few hours of sisi just as well as the next guy. However, sometimes it takes a chart just to clear through all the bull**** mentioned on here. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.22 12:19:00 - [36] Originally by: Mindo Junde Why is grouping arty Dumb? Be nice to the noob You avoid overkill (wasted dps) with ungrouped guns, especially now with +/-10k alpha 1400mm's. This allows you to put dps onto the secondary target within the first volley from the turrets that didn't activate (because the primary target no longer exists). Also guys, stop feeding trolls. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.22 15:14:00 - [37] This is why would be better if they just increased large ac optimal range by 200-250% and medium ac optimal by 100% putting them between blasters and lasers. With the tier optimal multiplied, you'll suddenly have a reason to fit higher tiers. It's also less likely to create balance problems than adding 50% more fall off (ac fall off is a big number +more minmatar ships have fall of bonuses.) As for Artillery, I'm 50/50 on whether or not the ammo tracking changes are good or not. As it stands Depleted Uranium is the only one with the 20% tracking increase. It would be better as I mentioned on the very first post to simplify the whole ammo selection by making a middle tier of ammo with roughly +20% tracking, the same range, and same damage amount but with different ammo types. Right now, proton just seems to be the best combination of range, damage and tracking for 80% of normal usage. Also, there needs to be either a damage, or optimal range increase to artillery, having by far the worst tracking, optimal range and damage over time isn't really balanced and excludes there usefulness in a number of situations. Ideally, adding a new tier of artillery along with a fitting increase to the Maelstrom would solve the problem. However, I still feel that until something changes (slot and bonus wise) with the Tempest and Fleet Tempest, these changes will probably seem unsatifactory to most. (Hints, 6 low slots suck, Navy Domi/Fleet Phoon > Fleet Pest, there twice as many armour tanking BS's as there are shield tanking bs's) ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.23 12:27:00 - [38] Originally by: Neutrino Sunset I don't follow your logic here. Increasing arty range doesn't make sense from an RP perspective, why would what are basically cannons fire as far as lasers or rails? ... It's not really an RP question, and as we're in space, without atmospheric drag etc, talking about range is a moot point. It really boils down to this, minmatar players don't believe they need to train another race to participate within fleet sniping. They want a ship that can hit and hit well 180-220km. From a game design perceptive, it seems unwise to not provide this option to an activity as common as fleet sniping as it leads to mass migration and the more serious type of racial homogenisation - which is happening in droves at the moment. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.23 20:34:00 - [39] Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 23/10/2009 20:35:04 Originally by: Liang Nuren Really, the changes are worth testing on TQ.... even if the tracking is a bit low. It would be nice to test any of this on Sisi, however tracking computers still don't provide fall off bonuses and there's no word on whether the current method of stacking is a bug or a feature. For instance, you can get +150km fall off using 1400m's and Depleted Uranium with 3 tracking enhancers and 3 ambit extension rigs. Also, fighting in fall off, along with ****ty tracking is another thing that diminishes the alpha advantage even further but I guess sticking to "Hurf-bluf Falloff" means more to you guys than actual effectiveness. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.23 21:03:00 - [40] Rokh Compared the the Maelstrom Slightly more EHP, slower, slightly less agility. 308 dps @ 183+50km *3x the tracking using CN Iridium. [Rokh, Fleet sniper] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Damage Control II Power Diagnostic System II Quad LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Iridium Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Iridium Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Iridium Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Iridium Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Iridium Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Iridium Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Iridium Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Iridium Charge L Large Core Defence Field Extender I Large Core Defence Field Extender I Large Core Defence Field Extender I Or you could just use spike, change a tracking computer for an invul and hit 305 dps out to 250km with 15% more tracking with 20k more ehp. Hyperion Compared the the Maelstrom 1k more EHP, the same speed, better agility. 388 dps @ 183+50km* 15% more tracking tracking using spike. [Hyperion, rails] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Damage Control II Quad LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range 425mm Railgun II, Spike L 425mm Railgun II, Spike L 425mm Railgun II, Spike L 425mm Railgun II, Spike L 425mm Railgun II, Spike L 425mm Railgun II, Spike L 425mm Railgun II, Spike L 425mm Railgun II, Spike L Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I And then it gets somewhat laughable when you compare with Ammarian battleships. But yeah, i'm probably going to be accused of ETF ***gotry however these setups are pretty similar to the ones I used in BOB. The only time I ever considered flying a maelstrom was for BS POS bashing without logistics. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.23 21:27:00 - [41] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Pattern Clarc 320 (without reload time accounted for as in your setups) dps @ 183+50km *3x the tracking using CN Iridium. Or you could just use spike, change a tracking computer for an invul and hit 305 dps out to 250km with 15% more tracking with 20k more ehp. [Rokh, Fleet sniper] ... 1k more EHP, the same speed, better agility. 401 dps (without reload time accounted for as in your setups) @ 183+50km* 15% more tracking tracking using spike. [Hyperion, rails] ... And then it gets somewhat laughable when you compare with Ammarian battleships. I await your 11K alpha Hype and Rokh. They're different. This is good. -Liang Just fit 1400mm's II's instead of Hybrids. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.24 10:51:00 - [42] Originally by: 1600 RT Originally by: Pattern Clarc [Just fit 1400mm's II's instead of Hybrids. im sure the rokh have enough grid for that The Rokh and the Hyperion have about the same amount of grid, they fit 1400mm's just as easily as the Vargur. If the only thing you care about is 11k alpha and ehp, with range, tracking and damage being secondary concerns, then the Abaddon is by far the best artillery platform, only difference is you'll have to wait a few more seconds per volley. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.27 18:36:00 - [43] Originally by: Cpt Branko In before "tempest is still crap". I will not rest until this issue is resolved. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.27 19:00:00 - [44] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Pattern Clarc Originally by: Cpt Branko In before "tempest is still crap". I will not rest until this issue is resolved. Ok, but it's a Tempest problem, not a AC problem. The ship just doesn't know what it wants to do with itself with its layout and double damage bonus but lack of lows for credible BS tank+gank (and small dronebay by BS standards), but it's supposedly versatile because of that, so I just fly something which is more focused towards RRBS action (a Typhoon). Indeed. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.27 19:31:00 - [45] Other things to consider. Reduce the CPU usage of Shield transferers. Have a second look at Active Tanking Bonuses as they do not compare at all with resistance bonuses (Eg, make them dual bonuses to both Boost amount and cap use, remote repair or HP - similar to the way drone bonuses are applied) The tempest and fleet tempest need a role. As the Phoon is the gang RR mobile and the maelstrom will always be a better fleet ship - a good idea may be to give the tempest a tracking bonus in exchange for the damage bonus, increase the ROF bonus to 7.5, increase the drone bay/bandwidth to 100mb, together with a 7 med shield tank - as so it's not just another XYZ armour RR BS, Amarr wanna be.>. Improve the Maelstroms agility. The Phoon is now perfect. Faction tracking computers/enhancers should give +40% bonus to fall off. Otherwise, bring on tomorrow. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.28 09:50:00 - [46] If Hail is better then whats the problem. If it isn't, it's more a symptom with high damage t2 ammo on the whole, as Gallente and Amarr have had similar issues for a while. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.28 10:57:00 - [47] Thanks Nozh. DPS increase effectivily fixes Artillery once and for all. Are ship changes to the Tempest, Muninn and Vargur likely to happen before domination? ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.28 14:29:00 - [48] Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 28/10/2009 14:31:21 Originally by: AstroPhobic Agreed. Give the tempest a little bit more speed/agility and astro is completely content! <3 Give it any more speed and agility and you turn it into a hurricane. The reason why it probably feels slow is due to the fact that armour tanking isn't a good synergy with speed. The reason why it never really did the right amount of dps, is because 6 low slots really suck if you where interested fitting any type of armour tank. The Tempest needs to be made into a battleship, with the slot layouts/bonuses to match. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.28 15:37:00 - [49] Or you could just make it a shield tanker, give it a tracking bonus, more drones and reduce shield transfer requirements and add a bit more diversity to the game. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.28 15:49:00 - [50] Originally by: Polinus Tempest does not need another turret. Just moves it even further away from being an unique ship. Tempest is already getting a boost since its the ONLY AC boat that will be able to fit an extra tracking computer to enjoy falloff. That becomes the "reason" to use it. After projectile boost tempest issue is not ship sucking. Its good now. The issue remaining is the lack of clear role. THe capability of extra 30% falloff its a significant boost. Maelstroms will NOT be using commonly 3 falloff rigs anymore due to stack nerf. So maelstroms loose the longer range position to tempest. Is much? NO. buts its something. You can have some interesting RR ship with 3 trimarks and1 track computer. Better dual RR ship by far than maelstrom. And now due to falloff changes it have superior range to the 5 torpedo typhoon. Want somethign interesting to bias more the tempest as the RR ship of the lot? Swap sensor strenght between maelstrom and tempest. Your logic doesn't make any sense. With the right fit, a Maelstrom can fit a tracking enhancer giving the same fall off bonus as the tempests tracking computer. Theres little stopping you from having the same fall off with as many rigs, tracking computers and tracking enhancers with ac's on either a maelstrom or tempest really.. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.28 15:54:00 - [51] Originally by: To mare imho the best fix for the tempest would be a -25% mass like the mach, same base speed, same slot layout and same bonus as now. and give the tempest a +15% grid so it will be able to fit a sniper setup w/o RCU II Would you honestly ever fly the Hurricane again? ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.28 16:04:00 - [52] Originally by: Polinus Originally by: Pattern Clarc Originally by: Polinus Tempest does not need another turret. Just moves it even further away from being an unique ship. Tempest is already getting a boost since its the ONLY AC boat that will be able to fit an extra tracking computer to enjoy falloff. That becomes the "reason" to use it. After projectile boost tempest issue is not ship sucking. Its good now. The issue remaining is the lack of clear role. THe capability of extra 30% falloff its a significant boost. Maelstroms will NOT be using commonly 3 falloff rigs anymore due to stack nerf. So maelstroms loose the longer range position to tempest. Is much? NO. buts its something. You can have some interesting RR ship with 3 trimarks and1 track computer. Better dual RR ship by far than maelstrom. And now due to falloff changes it have superior range to the 5 torpedo typhoon. Want somethign interesting to bias more the tempest as the RR ship of the lot? Swap sensor strenght between maelstrom and tempest. Your logic doesn't make any sense. With the right fit, a Maelstrom can fit a tracking enhancer giving the same fall off bonus as the tempests tracking computer. Theres little stopping you from having the same fall off with as many rigs, tracking computers and tracking enhancers with ac's on either a maelstrom or tempest really.. Now try to fit a maelstrom with 2 RR same dps same tank, same falloff and tacklign equipment. Not to say more expensive . Falloff is very relevant on RR gangs because the gang members cannot keep moving into range. So being able to reach the target is very important. Tempest usually have a free midslot that can be easily used by a tracking computer. Typhoon does not have that luxury. Maelstrom does nto even fit in armor RR role without some lolage. 6 800mm 2 remote lar MWD tackle injector TComputer Damage mod plate x2 EANm x2, DC 3 trimark. (didn't checked but think it fits CPU wise). Its a faily decent RR ship if you compare to old tempest/projectiles status. I'd rather fly a Cruise Missile Phoon + Sentries, Domi/Megathron/Amarr battleship for RR as the main thing is tank not spare midslots, and the domi has one anyway. Honestly, I think we can do better than making another average cookie-cutter armour rr boat. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.28 16:10:00 - [53] Originally by: Kaileen Starsong Edited by: Kaileen Starsong on 28/10/2009 16:03:41 Originally by: Pattern Clarc Originally by: To mare imho the best fix for the tempest would be a -25% mass like the mach, same base speed, same slot layout and same bonus as now. and give the tempest a +15% grid so it will be able to fit a sniper setup w/o RCU II Would you honestly ever fly the Hurricane again? Gangbonus platform with 720s for BC gangs. That's sort of it. I'd honestly prefer if Pest retained its bonuses, but gotten larger dronebay and got turned in passive(as in, buffer) shieldtank-geared ship. Like 8/7/4 and 125 mbit. Pretty much something like this. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.28 16:37:00 - [54] Originally by: Kagura Nikon tempest is iconic pirate ship. Pirates need mid slots. Not gonna happen. Even contrary to that tempest lien is movign more and more into armor biased. Also movign into shields would make it even more pathetic when compared to maelstrom. Unlikely, Additional mid, utility highs make it different, and preferable in a whole number of situations. It'll be doing more damage, with a stronger passive tank or enough slots for a point. Similar to how a vagabond (or any good minmatar ship) works Originally by: Kagura Nikon Shield RR is something that will NOT suddenly appear in fleets just because of tempest. Tell that to nano hac pilots... ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.28 17:16:00 - [55] Originally by: To mare i agree tempest is meant to have full tackle and spare mids always been the ship strenght. Except that the Domi always did that better. The games changed, and without doing a specific thing well, the Tempest's in the mire. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.28 23:38:00 - [56] Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 28/10/2009 23:40:12 Originally by: Kagura Nikon completely irrelevant (both answers). The hac gangs use shield tank because shields repair immediately! What a load of rubbish. HAC's have barely enough EHP to make it count, lose there shields and on the next volley they explode. A shield RR battleship would be vastly more effective, the only thing hindering there use are the lack of platforms (2 armour tanking bs's for every shield) and the insane CPU requirements for shield tansferers, and even then it's more common than you think.. Originally by: Nuts Nougat This. If you want a tank+gank ship there's typhoon, maelstrom, mega, geddon, raven, abaddon. Haven't you considered the idea that "Tank+Gank" is what Battleships do. This is there role, this is why people fly them. When they fail at this role they are either displacing a ship in a smaller size class, or being displaced by a ship in a smaller size class (sup scorpion) or just full on useless, thats where the tempest is at right now. Originally by: AstroPhobic My proposed: 10% agility/speed New Tempest: 165m/s, 10.7s align Hurricane : 206m/s, 8.5s align Not seeing any issues, and certainly not close enough to say hurricane=tempest. We have the phoon and mael for tank+gank, no reason for a 3rd. See above, and congrats on giving the tempest the same speed as the Typhoon, that is so going to make me change my mind and fly it over it's peers :/. Whilst messing with speed and agility, there's either no point, or you cross the thresh hold and make smaller ships redundant. More speed, more agility will either mean nothing changes, or your battlecruisers and Muninn hac's become meaningless. The new Machariel is working just because it has crossed the threshold (oh, and has a full armour tank and decent drone bay) - it has cruiser speed, and battlecruiser agility, wanting something like that at T1 level will only make your battlecruisers pointless. Originally by: AstroPhobic The great thing about shield tanks is you can make 5/6 and 7/4 a shield tank. Sure you lack all that tackle with the 5/6, but you can still throw on MWD, point, 3x buffer and have 6 lows to play with a DCU, 3 gyros and a mix of TE and nano. Along with 2 heavy neuts, you're going to slaughter some BCs/cruisers. psyduck Your vastly superior with a 8/7/4 tank, you might be more limited in how you fit, but i'd rather have a ship with 1 good fit, than a ship with lots of **ty, sub-optimal fits. Originally by:** AstroPhobic I'm not saying 7/4 is a bad idea, it has merits, but I think it would be just as easy to leave it "as is" and throw an extra engine on the back. The path of least resistance leads to the bottom of the pile. As far as balancing is concerned, if it's a good idea and enough people want it, regardless of "how easy it will be", then the dev's will usually listen. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.29 00:06:00 - [57] Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 29/10/2009 00:07:41 Originally by: Seishi Maru You can make Shield transfers cost 15 cpu to Fit only. Even so people will tell you to ARMOR tank your raven.. and they are RIGHT! You armour tank the raven because everyone else is flying an armour tanking, turret totting battleship (support ships usually explode very quick at large gang sizes and thus bs's require tackle), armour remote repairing is vastly easier than shields and that there simply isn't a viable alternative. Against smaller gangs, shield RR is more effective, especially using scimitar logistic ships. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.29 10:13:00 - [58] For those complaining that the weapons system changes may have been OTT may have a point. The problems with Minmatar have really been limited to battleships. Now i'm seeing fall off figures of 22km quoted for the wolf, 102km for the Vargur. It's unlikely these changes will make it to TQ, not without a serious tracking nerf. The issues could have been more or less sorted with decent ship bonuses and slot layouts, instead it feels like the inevitability of further power creep as Gallente pilots now seek damage and tracking increases to blasters and medium rails across the board. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.29 10:21:00 - [59] Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 29/10/2009 10:22:58 Originally by: Nuts Nougat Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Lastly, increase fitting requirements for ALL auto cannons and the larger medium artillery. Now that Minmatar are getting the firepower they should also experience the joy of having to chop off toes to shoehorn on a buffer tank fit. Fit a muninn properly without any fitting mods. I dare you.In fact, I double dare you. You cannot fit guns+mwd+shield extender without an RCU/ACR. I have AWU5, Shield Upgrades 5, Projectile Rigging 5, Energy Grid Upgrades 5, just to be able to squeeze in decent vagabond/muninn fits. No other race requires that. A buffer AC Muninn fit doesn't require fitting mods at all. Also, it's probably a good idea for AC's in general to increase in fitting costs as it prevents them becoming de-facto on all none damage bonused ships with turret slot. It also makes it easier to balance the fitting of ships in relation to their ability to fit artillery. (Sup vargur) ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.29 10:48:00 - [60] Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 29/10/2009 10:53:53 Originally by: Cpt Branko It also makes most Minmatar ships suck, except in shield buffer fits. No thank you, I'll take the TQ situation over that crap with single awesome fitting. Beyond the rupture and hurricane, none sucky minmatar ships are the shield buffer fits, and even then, i'm seeing alot of nano canes these days. Anyway, obviously, you'd re-adjust the fittings of minmatar ships to compensate. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.29 11:42:00 - [61] Secluse, i'm the last person you'll need to explain fall off mechanics too. The problem seems to be that everyone's been comparing there weapons to the Amarr. I'm not sure thats wise. Also, that wolf will now have 20% more tracking, real damage type selection and capless guns with that TE. Anyway, I never really heard that many complaints about these ships before the change TBH, and wide sweeping changes to turrets would probably mean a hell of a lot of ships would require rebalancing. I think it's also hilarious that most of you would agree to a hybrid boost to go along with the projectile boost because Armarr should have been nerfed. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.29 12:05:00 - [62] Originally by: Secluse Originally by: Pattern Clarc Secluse, i'm the last person you'll need to explain fall off mechanics too. The problem seems to be that everyone's been comparing there weapons to the Amarr. I'm not sure thats wise. Also, that wolf will now have 20% more tracking, real damage type selection and capless guns with that TE. Anyway, I never really heard that many complaints about these ships before the change TBH, and wide sweeping changes to turrets would probably mean a hell of a lot of ships would require rebalancing. I think it's also hilarious that most of you would agree to a hybrid boost to go along with the projectile boost because Armarr should have been nerfed. 1. I have read many of your SHC posts, so I know your knowledge about the subject. However, why is it not wise to compare projectiles against lasers, the benchmark of weapon systems? If lasers are not nerfed, why should we settle for a buff below competitive? And seriously, 22km falloff (38%) vs 22km optimal (100%). I get what you saying, but let's give the process some due diligence, this boost will be it for a long time. 2. Real damage type selection needs to be put into context - you get to choose once because reloading in battle is not an option with 10sec reload time, but it is a huge plus. However, if you want your 22km falloff, you have no damage type selection, it's barrage. These boosts don't compound, each one is addressing different weaknesses, and each need to be tested as such. 3. I've never had an issue with boosting blasters if projectiles got love. I think the 2 were balanced prior to this, lasers were the isolated issue. But think about it, why would CCP nerf? Just like WoW, you boost or add incentive to train new content, keep subscription, and so the game evolves. Balance is great, but balance is stagnation, and stagnation is MMO death. So we have cycles of power, people chasing the FotM, and CCP smiles. All-in-all, let's give it a go, identify the strengths and weaknesses, compare against lasers and blasters, and conclude. Since I believe lasers won't be touched, and the projectile changes adding some great flavor, I suspect blasters will get boosted and the cycle continues. OK. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.29 13:54:00 - [63] Originally by: Seriously Bored Some other interesting things. No one is taking a look at Artillery, so I thought I'd give it a shot. Using Liang's Tempest Sniper fit from earlier... [Tempest, 0.0 Sniperpest Cheap] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Reactor Control Unit II Damage Control II 100MN MicroWarpdrive I Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Sabretooth Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Sabretooth Light Missile Large Ionic Field Projector I Large Ionic Field Projector I Large Projectile Ambit Extension I We get ~348.7 Turret DPS with 152KM Optimal + 92.9KM Falloff, assuming Ambits don't stack. (Slightly less if they are doubled and do stack.) Which equals almost exactly 300 DPS at its 190KM lock range. Using the new RF EMP/Fusion/PP, we end up with 601 DPS (using 10% more than 1200mm DPS for the stat), and 42 + 92.9KM range. Which gives you 417DPS at 100KM, and 177 DPS at 150KM. Using the new RF Carb Lead, you end up with a rough estimate of 276 gun DPS, doing roughly the same at 150KM, and 198 DPS at 190KM. Looks like sniping got better, but the long range ammo is still pretty questionable. Better in between 100KM and 190KM, but not by an incredible amount. 1200mm artillery won't get an optimal of 152km. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.29 14:05:00 - [64] Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 29/10/2009 14:06:30 Quote: btw. why are people insisting on using Tempest as sniper platform? Rose tinted glasses. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.29 14:31:00 - [65] Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 29/10/2009 14:31:46 Originally by: Caldor Mansi Originally by: Pattern Clarc Rose tinted glasses. Do you actualy mind to explain it? I really would like to know what sniping Tempest can do better than Mael. Bring back memories of a better time in which the Maelstrom didn't exist, and the Tempest could alpha cruisers. Right now however, it's arguably cheaper, a little faster and a little more agile with scripted tracking computers being a PITA. People tend to fly the Sniper Megathron instead of the Hyperion or Rokh for similar reasons. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.29 15:07:00 - [66] Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 29/10/2009 15:16:05 I think people are expecting those ships to be rebalanced now that AC's are how they always wanted them to be. Idealism has been the driving force behind a lot of the discussion really. It's funny, the people who want radical wide sweeping changes too all tiers of weapons are often against radical changes to failing ships. I await to see how these changes present themselves on Sisi. (when ever there implemented) ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.29 15:44:00 - [67] Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 29/10/2009 15:47:09 Originally by: Uncle Smokey Using AC's on other ships as a tactical option is more of a ship bonus / configuration issue, than about minmatar turrets. Pretty much this. A prophecy with the right bonuses to pulse lasers, and a naturally large capacitor, would use lasers. A Maelstrom with a 50% projectile damage bonus for instance would never be seen with anything but projectiles. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.29 16:26:00 - [68] Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 29/10/2009 16:27:48 Originally by: Nuts Nougat Or you could just add another bloody turret to the tempest? I think one of the best things about the tempest today is the spare two high slots. For close range, an addition heavy drone gives you more close range dps than an additional turret hard-point (before damage mods). Sniper wise, assuming you've increased the grid by 4000, i'd be supprised if there weren't boost the Maelstrom threads within days of that happening. The Tempest needs to do stuff differently and for that to happen, it needs to get a tracking bonus with a single 7.5% damage OR rof bonus. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.29 16:59:00 - [69] Originally by: To mare the tempest bonus are fine, your change will be the final nerf on the ship cutting its already poor dps. tracking on projectile is fine plus the tempest have 5 mids you can use the 5th for a double web or even a tracking computer with the same effect of a bonus to tracking. want to make the tempest useful ? give it some agility/speed or a mass reduction. So artillery tracking is fine all of a sudden? OK. Using 2 bonuses to do the same thing is ******ed. It's part of the reason why the Tempest fails. Oh, it should be a shield tanker too, but i'll beat that dead donkey some more later. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.29 17:15:00 - [70] Originally by: Seriously Bored This is exactly what I'm worried about. I'd like to see, verbatim... Ammo Changes - Base Values: Long Range (1.6 range modifier - 6 damage - 5% tracking bonus): Carbonized Lead - 5 kinetic / 1 explosive Nuclear - 5 explosive / 1 kinetic Proton - 4 em / 2 kinetic Medium Range (1.0 range modifier - 9 damage - 20% tracking bonus): Depleted Uranium - 4 thermal / 3 explosive / 2 kinetic (fine with Exp and Th flipping here) Titanium Sabot - 7 kinetic / 2 explosive Short Range (0.5 range modifier - 11 damage): EMP - 9 em / 1 explosive / 1 kinetic Phased Plasma - 9 thermal / 2 kinetic Fusion - 9 explosive / 2 kinetic Falloff is now: S: 4000/4500/5000 M: 8000/9000/10000 L: 16000/18000/20000 5% DPS increase in Large ACs. Thats pretty good, except the 5% large AC increase. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.29 17:53:00 - [71] Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 29/10/2009 17:55:13 Originally by: To mare Originally by: Pattern Clarc Originally by: To mare the tempest bonus are fine, your change will be the final nerf on the ship cutting its already poor dps. tracking on projectile is fine plus the tempest have 5 mids you can use the 5th for a double web or even a tracking computer with the same effect of a bonus to tracking. want to make the tempest useful ? give it some agility/speed or a mass reduction. So artillery tracking is fine all of a sudden? OK. Using 2 bonuses to do the same thing is ******ed. It's part of the reason why the Tempest fails. Oh, it should be a shield tanker too, but i'll beat that dead donkey some more later. 1st if you want to use arty you should use the mael, tempest can work too but if you care about arty tracking you waould be better changing the mael shield tanking bonus to a tracking bonus. 2nd if you give the tempest a 7.5% damage per level its dps will be really too weak and a alpha very close to the mael. 3rd if you give the tempest a 7.5 rof it will still have less dps than the current TQ pest and a really weak alpha which go against the purpose of using arty. With the Alpha changes, a none damage bonused pest will still have 50% more alpha than current. Difference is now that you have a choice... 37.5% more tracking on the Tempest (will be better against smaller stuff) 25% More alpha on the Maelstrom (which would be better against bs). Sounds like a pretty balanced choice to me. That combined with a drone bay/bandwidth increase and a new slot layout and suddenly, you have 2 ships with clear roles at both close and long ranges. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.29 19:00:00 - [72] Originally by: To mare except for the fact you ruin the ship for everything else I'm sorry, I forgot about all the other roles the Tempest was currently great at. The Actual turret damage difference is just 2% less with a 37.5% rof bonus compared to double 25% bonuses and thats made up by the fact it's now a shield tanker and fit with 1-2 more gyro's, and an increased drone bay. See the link in my sig for graphs. Otherwise, continue being rejects and asking for *****ed stuff like 7 double damaged bonused turrets because drones are too hard to use*. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.29 19:41:00 - [73] Originally by: AstroPhobic There we go again, comparing AC's to lasers... The problem is that your fixing a hell of a lot of ** that wasn't broken, in order to achieve an ideal. Originally by:** AstroPhobic The maelstrom is actually lacking IMO. Sure it's great in lowsec, but outside it's mobility and range are severly lacking, and it has somewhat of the faildrake syndrome. Tanks don't help you kill your enemy, damage does. The Maelstrom has very comparable damage to it's peers. Where it's lacking is it's lack of versatility because of the very one dimensional active tanking bonus. And the idea that some how, it' less dependant on projectiles working than the Tempest is insane. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.30 09:12:00 - [74] Originally by: Seriously Bored Edited by: Seriously Bored on 30/10/2009 06:33:25 Originally by: Etho Demerzel Yes, because Vagabonds have overwhelming damage at range with said bonus. The fact that the bonus is one of the bonuses of a T2 ship means exactly nothing. Originally by: AstroPhobic The problem is they're more or less terrible in any large gang. So the vagabond moves from 250 DPS to 300 DPS. So what? For F*k's sake, are you guys listening to yourselves? Are you not the people who had a sensible grasp on balance before this thread was even in existence? You're starting to sound like the Amarr apologists who think the extreme optimal is fine, who think Tach fitting requirements are a balanced* counterweight to their ridiculous stats. How broken are Small ACs now? How underpowered is the Vagabond, or Rupture or the Hurricane now? How on earth could small and medium ACs deserve a bigger boost than Large ACs, which are clearly broken? You're losing your focus on balance because you want to hold on to everything given to you, and let nothing slip by. Screw that. I want balance, and the proposed changes are too much. Astrophobic, I know for a fact your suggestions were 30-35% falloff for balance, not 50%. The current changes on the BS level work, they DO NOT work on the small and medium level. This is just...infuriating. I know you guys have more sense than this. I know you can look at the numbers and see that they are clearly lopsided to close range, lopsided to smaller size guns, when it's the larger guns that need the boost. Math is a tool, and a tool I believe in. But you can selectively use it to prove any point you want. Use it even handedly, and look at both sides of the issue. You have to at least *try* to prove yourself wrong, before you can prove yourself right. /This ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.30 09:53:00 - [75] So thats a Hyperion with 3 damage mods getting ****d at most ranges 9barring <5km, where it's even with a Maesltrom) vs anything with resistances? /ME PREPARES THE BOOST GALLENTE THREAD. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.30 10:02:00 - [76] So either they revert 0.5 range ammo back to TQ fusion damage levels (10) with possibly EMP or Fusion at 11 or they give blasters 15% dps in compensation. Although a double race boost patch is looking pretty unlikely atm. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.30 13:32:00 - [77] Can I see the same charts without transversal please? ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.30 13:41:00 - [78] Originally by: Terianna Eri Originally by: Pattern Clarc Can I see the same charts without transversal please? I don't think those had transversal, but did take into account typical resistances. With 0 transversal, all ships will be doing full damage at 0km. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.30 14:21:00 - [79] Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 30/10/2009 14:22:20 People covered explosive due to missiles and barrage. The point is mute anyway because of PP. The damage mod is far too high, I don't have a problem with the range/fall off at battleship level (it's ****ing OTT at frig and cruiser level though). But the damage delt within 10km makes blasters pointless. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.30 14:41:00 - [80] Originally by: Caroline Nikon [ After these changes a smart armor tanker will drop 1 damage mod for a Explosive hardener or an EANM.. omg god forbids from us having to loose something to be safe from minmatar weaponry! So we will fly our Tempests with no damage mods now to be safe from our own weapons? AWESOME! ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.30 15:08:00 - [81] Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 30/10/2009 15:08:38 You have near pure damage type selection, so the point on armour tankers requiring explosive hardeners is ****ed because the top 3 ammo types are just as potent. Originally by:** Uncle Smokey Originally by: Seriously Bored but then why not use RF Phased Plasma instead? because people don't reload in the middle of a close range fight? Thats even more reason to use it in the first place. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.30 15:16:00 - [82] Originally by: Caroline Nikon Originally by: Pattern Clarc Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 30/10/2009 15:08:38 You have near pure damage type selection, so the point on armour tankers requiring explosive hardeners is ****ed because the top 3 ammo types are just as potent. Originally by:** Uncle Smokey Originally by: Seriously Bored but then why not use RF Phased Plasma instead? because people don't reload in the middle of a close range fight? Thats even more reason to use it in the first place. because thermal and kinetic is already larger than explosive? A single Explosive rig smoothes the resistance distribution. If you don't know what type of targets you'll be fighting against, nor how there fit, PP will do the most uniform damage against armour and shield, or should we all start plugging our thermal hole now to compensate? ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.30 16:59:00 - [83] Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 30/10/2009 16:59:20 Could you do all future unresisted graphs with 0 transversal velocity please. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.30 17:19:00 - [84] Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 30/10/2009 17:21:04 Which ones which? I'm assuming red is the tempest? For it to get anywhere near the dps of a megathron, it'll have to use torps. Otherwise barrage is the way to go.. If green is the tempest, then LOL ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.30 17:46:00 - [85] Looking at these charts makes me wonder who in there right mind would ever use 1200mm artillery ever again, especially without alpha changes. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.30 17:53:00 - [86] Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 30/10/2009 17:55:25 Originally by: Etho Demerzel Originally by: Roemy Schneider Edited by: Roemy Schneider on 30/10/2009 17:16:12 me too! me too! -.- - i'm not sure about tracking yet so i only took the falloff stuff (aka 0 transversal) - w/o hit quality stuff - BUT! in the following duel, i calc'ed damages vs the other's armor resistances (yesyes i know...) ---- [call it "effective armor removal" or w/e....] - "dents" are switches from faction ammo to t2 - digest with care, plz Now do the same with a geddon and mega against shields. If the Maelstrom out damages the the Abaddon against shields, the tempest will out damage them both. @Liang Citations please? (No idea what's what) ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.11.02 20:06:00 - [87] Any eta on when this may hit Sisi?? Less than a month to go now. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.11.03 12:07:00 - [88] Any news on ship changes? (Tempest, Muninn) Maybe a new thread? ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.11.03 13:19:00 - [89] I think this is everything... Ammo Changes - Base Values: Long Range (1.6 range modifier - 5 damage - 5% tracking bonus): ò Carbonized Lead - 4 kinetic / 1 explosive ò Nuclear - 4 explosive / 1 kinetic ò Proton - 3 em / 2 kinetic Medium Range (1.0 range modifier - 8 damage - 20% tracking bonus): ò Depleted Uranium - 3 explosive / 3 thermal / 2 kinetic ò Titanium Sabot - 6 kinetic / 2 explosive Short Range (0.5 range modifier - 12 damage): ò EMP - 9 em / 2 explosive / 1 kinetic ò Phased Plasma - 10 thermal / 2 kinetic ò Fusion - 10 explosive / 2 kinetic Tracking Computer / Enhancer changes: ò Now provide 30% fall ò Stacking penalised Tracking links also have a falloff modifier Autocannons / Repeating Artillery ò Falloff by tier on auto-cannons/repeating artillery changed to 0%, +10%, +20% ò Tracking speed difference between tiers on autocannons/repeating artillery increased to 15% Artillery ò 280mm / 720mm / 1400mm received a small DPS boost, now 10% more than 250mm / 650mm / 1200mm ò 250mm / 650mm / 1200mm received a small tracking boost, now 25% better than 280mm / 720mm / 1400mm 1200's ò low alpha, fast rate of fire. (???) 1400's ò 75% increase to alpha ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.11.03 15:40:00 - [90] 720mm / 650mm get 25% more alpha IIRC ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.11.04 12:13:00 - [91] Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 04/11/2009 12:13:45 Originally by: Nuts Nougat And this is IMO what Minmatar should be about. Subpar tank Thats your opinion, reality is that this isn't what minmatar is about at all. Due to the combination of slots, grid, the best minmatar ships have all ways been the ones with the best passive tanks. From the rifter (MSE or 400mm variants), extender thrasher/sabre fits, the 1600mm rupture, the vagabond, rapier/huginn, the Phoon's tank and even the broadsword. Minmatar never really out damaged anyone, but had enough passive tank to outlast them, or at least last long enough to GFTO. If you want to do the most turret dps, I tell you now that your flying the wrong race. The Tempests problem is that it has the same slot layout as the myrmidon (or Hyperion, but without the rep bonus, drone bay or turret dps or HP) It is a battlecruiser with large guns. It's a ship that neither tanks nor ganks in a class that's suppose to do both relatively well. Also, More damage mods (1.3 damage modifier) >>> Fitting more turrets (1.1 damage modifier). With 6 low slots that's loltastic. As the number of ships with 7 lows is also pretty common, i'd advise against making it more armour tanky. The only real way to go is a primarily shield tanking slot layout if you care about diversity. 7/6/6 or 8/7/4 IMO. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.11.04 18:11:00 - [92] Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 04/11/2009 18:12:03 Originally by: Nuts Nougat ... Sounds like you want a brutix with neutrons with the ability to fit 1400mm's.. instead of a Minmatar battleship tbh. You niether like the typical style of minmatar fighting, nor comprehend what battleships actually do. LOL @ "All the other battleships tank+gank except the Tempest" - Well no **** there son, thats exactly the issue. Anyway, much luck. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.11.05 14:14:00 - [93] Through testing I have to dissagree with removing the 30% increase to fall off for TC's and TE's TBH. The only thing that would probably need some thinking about is the ammo. Probably 12/0.5 8/1.0 5/1.6 should be 11/0.7 8/0.6 6/1.6 ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.11.05 14:57:00 - [94] I think the damage selection and fall off are enough for Ac's. With 5 TE's I get +55km fall off on 800mm's, +40km fall off on fall off bonused 425mm's and 19km on bonused 200mm's go to 19km. It's going to mean a bunch of new fittings and a general refresh in tactics. Better than just slap on some AC's go forth and pwn faces with +50% more fall off imo. 15% tracking bonus =~ 30% fall off as far as damage increase is concerned, so your just nerfing yourself asking for it to be cut and if your not also going to ask for an optimal range increase to artillery, it would be ******ed move. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.11.05 15:12:00 - [95] Also muninn volley damage drops by 10% with sisi nuclear even with 25% more base alpha. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.11.05 15:21:00 - [96] Originally by: To mare yes because any good fit can afford 5 range module expecially on AC (never heard about stackin penality) Opps, should have read 2 tracking enhancers. Quote: Why make it another typical tank+gank BS when it could do so much more, by just giving it another bloody turret and the grid to fit 1400mm on them. You don't get it do you. It's like saying... why make this ship do what this class of ships are suppose to do, when we can make it so so much less. 7 turret tempest on it's own isn't much of an improvement, it won't gank, it won't tank, and will barely do more alpha than a Maelstrom (+11%) in return for less ehp, less cargobay, less drones, less sensor strength etc etc. I kinda get the impression however that you've convinced yourself that it would be good so I won't bother going into it any further. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.11.05 15:43:00 - [97] Originally by: darkmancer Originally by: Schmell The sad thing - TC and TE changes affects everyone. So standart fleet tempest will have 140+70, fine, but others will have around 50km falloff too. For apoc it is like 212+50 If that's true, looks like the Rokhs out of a job. Rokh Compared the the Maelstrom Slightly more EHP, slower, slightly less agility. 320 dps @ 183+50km using CN Iridium. [Rokh, Fleet sniper] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Damage Control II Power Diagnostic System II Quad LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Iridium Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Iridium Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Iridium Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Iridium Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Iridium Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Iridium Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Iridium Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Iridium Charge L Large Core Defence Field Extender I Large Core Defence Field Extender I Large Core Defence Field Extender I +3x tracking than anything else that can hit at that range for that damage... Or you could just use spike, change a few tracking computers for invuls and hit 305 dps out to 250km with 20k more ehp. Reports of the Rokhs demise as one of the best snipers are highly exaggerated. Quote: i dont know who you are quoting but i never said anywhere i want a tempest with 7 turrets, the only changes i would make to the tempest are more agility/speed and the grid for a sniper setup w/o rcu That was to the post at the top of the page. And your tempest suggestion also leaves a lot to be desired. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.11.05 16:38:00 - [98] Originally by: Seriously Bored I don't really like fitting Gyrostabilizers either. Can we get a 1.1x damage increase and a 10.5% ROF increase as well? Sorry for the sarcasm To mare, but that is essentially what you are asking. Pretty much this. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.11.05 17:26:00 - [99] Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 05/11/2009 17:26:50 Originally by: To mare another thing i think is being overlooked is the balance of barrage ammo with TE/TC, new tracking modules are making barrage less useful Psyduck ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.11.05 17:43:00 - [100] Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 05/11/2009 17:46:41 Originally by: Nuts Nougat Nano pest wet dreams.... Been there Done that Got the t-shirt. It was pretty awful. The main motivation was a cheaper version of a munnin, but we ended up just flying muninns, or hurricanes because they got snaged too easily. You've got to understand that what your trying to do is make a ship that competes directly with another in a lower size class. It doesn't work well for the scorpion, it won't work well for Tempest or whatever ship it ends up discplacing with more speed, more alpha Either way the alpha boost will improve it, the problem is how it stacks up to other battleships, that can only be solved by a rethink into the Tempests role. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.11.05 18:03:00 - [101] How on earth is it a valid point? It's like just leaving your scorch crystals at home just because you fitted a couple of tracking enhancers on your pulse zealot... No, you just have improved scorch range. Whatever range you would have had gets increased be it t1/faction or barrage, it's your own failings as a pilot if you don't understand/know how to make use of an expanded sphere of engagement. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.11.05 18:50:00 - [102] Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 05/11/2009 18:51:49 Originally by: Mashashige Assuming small gang fights you'd be inside 24km range of target 90% of the time Thats where I stopped reading. 1) If Barrage is over taken by another ammo type down the fall off curve due to higher damaging ammo, then that would also be a problem without TC/TE's. In fact, barrage would shine even more with TC/TE's as barrage had the bigger fall off modifier to start with and would get a bigger relative boost. 2) The people who this worries the most seem to be the ones who aren't in favour of of 11/8/6 ammo (because of waaa, my AC's need to do more dps than pulse lasers and blasters.) 3) If damage beyond 24km isn't important, why do you even give a **** about changing anything? Vagabonds with barrage on Sisi now have 25km fall off, that's 70-60% of your damage outside web range without TE/TC, not that the vagabond needed boosting anyway. And you want this increased even more? 4) And damage beyond 24km is very important, Armarr have proven this. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.11.05 19:06:00 - [103] Originally by: To mare you cant get a zealot to do the dps of scorch at scorch range. Indeed. facepalm.jpg Originally by: To mare but you can easily get a AC doing the same or more dps of barrage at barrage range, im not saying barrage will be useless only less useful. Quote: 1) If Barrage is over taken by another ammo type down the fall off curve due to higher damaging ammo, then that would also be a problem without TC/TE's. In fact, barrage would shine even more with TC/TE's as barrage had the bigger fall off modifier to start with and would get a bigger relative boost. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.11.07 15:09:00 - [104] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: To mare can we please stop talking about TE/TC this is projectile boost thread not TE/TC thread No, because the whole range changes practically hinge on TEs and your ability to fit them in a sensible setup. Pretty much. You cant talk about one without the other, really ship balancing should be included also. I'm starting to thing that this should just be put on hold till after domination, along with the rocket/destroyer and general boost patch that may come after as it's clear that Nozh's pretty tied up with more important stuff atm... ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.11.07 17:11:00 - [105] Originally by: Meeko Atari Originally by: To mare can we please stop talking about TE/TC this is projectile boost thread not TE/TC thread THIS! I Totally Agree Are you just To mare's alt? Everyone with more than a couple of brain cells to rub together know that there interlinked, hell, there part of Nozh's OP. If we should stop talking about them, we should probably stop talking about the ammo changes too. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.11.07 21:31:00 - [106] Originally by: Meeko Atari No i am not an Alt of who ever you said... firstly TE/TC's affect all turrets not just projectiles secondly ammo changes only affect projectiles third anyone that can think past his own agenda can see that buffing TE / TC's is NOT a projectile balance but a turret buff that will still leave projectiles broken or are you just a blaster fan boi looking for a buff? WTF are you talking about It's Part of Nozh's op, it's part of the solution not just to ac's, but artillery and deciding to just not talk about it because of some silly sense of parity is ****ed. I'm happy with the 30% fall off bonus on tracking modules because it's a module that's now worth fitting and a potential new tactic that breaths some long lost life back into ship fittings. Originally by:** Otebski Everyone with more than a couple of brain cells to rub togather know that balancing ships around fitting 5 damage mods is failed concept. You obviously haven't been playing this game very long. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.11.07 22:29:00 - [107] Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 07/11/2009 22:31:15 Originally by: Meeko Atari If the ship is fail ( and i do agree there are some ) then the ship needs to be looked at If the TE / TC modules are not working correctly then they should be looked at independently from all turrets because they affect all turrets this is a weapon system balance not an "open season " to buff anything that will improve turrets. all i want is a "plan" to fix what is broken not a half-assed attempt to shut me up. all this will do is make a new FOTM and i think you know that You don't even need to fix the entire line of projectiles to only fix whats broken. Proper ship bonuses would suffice. As for the TE/TC's, the 15% increase to optimal is about even to the 30% for fall off (in terms of damage beyond base optimal) and it's about in-line with the tracking disruptor fall off disruption effect (see reliable counter to T/D's). Just as optimal range boost all turrets but pulse lasers the most, fall off would improve all turrets, but AC's and Artillery the most. Really, this narrow view of lets make this weapon system the ideal (based on pure hurrdurr and folklore) and re-balance everything else later attitude is growing old, is going to very fix little, and probably make a lot of things worse or OP in the process. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.11.08 10:15:00 - [108] Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 08/11/2009 03:30:02 Originally by: Pattern Clarc As for the TE/TC's, the 15% increase to optimal is about even to the 30% for fall off (in terms of damage beyond base optimal) Ha ha. No it's not. 15% optimal is a 15% optimal increase for a fully optimal based turret. 30% falloff is a 30% range increase for a falloff based turret. Man, in one post your whining about how ****ty fall off mechanics are and asking for the same fall off as optimal on pulses, and in the other post your spouting this nonesense. A 30% fall off increase is actually a 60% increase to your turrets sphere of influence. However the increase to dps at your previous fall off, relative to an optimal range can only be obtained with a fall off bonus thats significantly stronger. Messy? Totally. If it where up to me I would have given large AC's a straight optimal increase (15-18km or 200-250%) - infact see the link in my sig. However, since you all insist on balancing around fall off, this is what you get. I kinda like the fact that there's a bit more competition in slots - ship fittings have become remarkably predictable and stale. I highly doubt anyone but minmatar ships would benefit from it enough to sacrifice slots and the fact that a lot of falling minmatar ships have too few slots in the first place should be somewhere you should direct your energies. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.11.09 17:11:00 - [109] A gyro actually saves you ammo, even though you may go through it at a faster rate. Increased volley damage = each volley is more effective Increased ROF = your killing the target quicker, it has less time to tank and repair damage etc. A TE may help efficiency, but to say a gyro makes you waste ammo is incorrect. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.11.09 18:52:00 - [110] Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 09/11/2009 18:53:21 Originally by: Astetta Edited by: Astetta on 09/11/2009 18:43:46 The thing I appreciate most from this entire thread is how absolutely wrong all of the pretty graphs and DPS pictures are. They assume correctly that hit % scales down in falloff, and the graphs are adjusted correctly. They all completely fail to take into consideration the large reduction in hit quality that comes with that percent to hit. Lasers are still going to be better than Projectiles, your mathcad or maple pictures be damned. They will need more falloff per tier than they're getting on sisi if Minmatar close range weapons on battleships are going to become competitive. Almost all of the charts are hit quality and hit chance adjusted. Originally by: To mare the issue with barrage is pretty solid the combiantion of base damage boost on T1 ammo and the 30% of falloff on TE make barrage less useful depending on setups Just because you keep on telling yourself that doesn't mean it'll be true. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.11.12 00:22:00 - [111] ok After play testing here are some suggestions... Battleship tier autocannons should have there fall off increase from... -0% / +20% / +40% Consider increasing 720mm artillery alpha from 25% to 50% would be a good move primarily due to the damage drop of nuclear. Faction Tracking enhancers don't seem to give improved fall off bonuses (unlike faction tracking computers - surely domination/RF TE's would give improved fall off? Medium tier ammo either needs to be made more long range, or up to 35% higher tracking, as the moment 33% more damage usually makes up for the increase of 20% more tracking. The changes to fusion and nuclear are going to hit alot of artillery users hard, but with a usable middle tier off ammo, hopefully there would be a happier compromise. Otherwise i'm pretty joyful with the ammo changes... Muninn needs a high slot moved to a low, or a mid whilst the Tempest and the Fleet Tempest need a bit of work. For example, the Navy Megathron and Navy Apoc not just compare reasonably well with there pirate variants but are complementary, where as the Macherial is just superior to the Fleet Tempest in every way conceivable in every thing the fleet tempest is can do to do. Before you mention cost, the Fleet Phoon would probably do armour tanking better, and another races navy battleship better still. Anyway, that's just in case your still reading this thread. If you've moved on to other things, a debrief would be nice anyway.... ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.11.17 17:08:00 - [112] Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 17/11/2009 17:07:59 Although this is at a bit of a lose end, I believe it's time to look at ship fixes... as nothing really changes for most of us until the Tempest becomes worthy of piloting again. ____ Minmatar ship fixes...
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.11.25 01:29:00 - [113] I think a projectile balance has achieved more or less all it should have achieved. If you want to finish the job you should be looking towards ship bonuses and slot layouts in many cases would provide more fixes than boosting projectiles way OTT would. Anyway, my latest iteration of Tempest fixes. ____ New - Tempest/Maelstrom
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.11.28 13:42:00 - [114] Originally by: Butzewutze Hm, did u check the link i posted? Where did ccp say that they will keep the 5/5? Here ____ New - Tempest/Maelstrom
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.12.02 17:52:00 - [115] Try, 14% less ehp, and no tracking distruptor, but more fall off, more dps, 300ms more speed and you no longer align like a brick. Otherwise quit ****ing about losing 3km worth of fall off. [Stabber Fleet Issue, better copy 1] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Damage Control II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Large Shield Extender II Republic Fleet Warp Disruptor True Sansha Stasis Webifier 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I ____ New* - Tempest/Maelstrom

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