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AnEwok	Posted - 2009.09.26 06:41:00 - [1] Quick question! I currently have a faction-fitted CNR (all caldari navy launchers), and I believe I remember seeing Liang mention Faction missiles will provide better income over standard missiles. However, will tech 2 launchers with tech 2 missiles provide even "better" income? (against BC/BS's I assume). Or rather, is it "worth it" to train up tech 2 launchers + specialization to get better income (if it's better), or is it insignificant enough to be a waste of time. I understand the definition of "worth" depends on the person, but there's gotta be a point where 1-5% increase isn't worth the effort. I'm on the verge of training towards a golem, but I have a dedicated salvager who cleans up nicely behind me, so I think the CNR may be better off. Thanks for any assistance, -Anewok
Liang Nuren The Hull Miners Union Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2009.09.26 06:50:00 - [2] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 26/09/2009 06:52:20 Quote: I currently have a faction-fitted CNR (all caldari navy launchers), and I believe I remember seeing Liang mention Faction missiles will provide better income over standard missiles. I made slightly more ISK/hr (profit) when running with CN cruise over T1 cruise. Quote: However, will tech 2 launchers with tech 2 missiles provide even "better" income? (against BC/BS's I assume). Yes, I made much better ISK/hr using Fury missiles than with Faction. They're so much cheaper - and you're still 2 volleying BCs and 3-4 volleying cruisers (if you should decide to shoot them with Fury for some reason). I have almost entirely switched over to Fury (For BS+BC) + generic T1 (For cruisers) unless the mission is really cruiser heavy. Quote: I'm on the verge of training towards a golem, but I have a dedicated salvager who cleans up nicely behind me, so I think the CNR may be better off. I just bought my Golem this week and after a really hectic week at work, I'm about to start running missions with it. More news to come soonish! -Liang PS: I'm also training towards the Nightmare. Rreeaalllyyy looking forward to running a Nightmare. :) Ed: Since I'm sitting in Jita ATM, Wrath Fury Cruise = 337.96 ISK/item. CN Wrath is 1800 ISK/item. And, you get more damage (read: full damage) towards the things you spend most of your time shooting at: battleships (and battlecruisers). And even T1 cruise makes absolute mincemeat of cruisers when they take full damage from it. ;-) -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Storm Templar Amarr	Posted - 2009.09.26 07:30:00 - [3] So you're recommending T2 Cruisies Launcher over Faction Cruisies Launcher?? ________________________________________________ For the Immortal God-Emperor.....ooops, wrong universe.
Liang Nuren The Hull Miners Union Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2009.09.26 07:40:00 - [4] Originally by: Storm Templar So you're recommending T2 Cruisies Launcher over Faction Cruisies Launcher?? Yes, because fury does more base damage and you can rig it to deal full damage. And it's hella cheaper. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
AnEwok	Posted - 2009.09.26 07:45:00 - [5] Thank you for the prompt reply! So, right now I'm sitting at: 28 Intelligence 20 Willpower I'll need to train up Weapon Upgrades to 5 (CPU) and Advanced Weapon Upgrades to 2 (engineering is at 4) to properly fit T2 launchers. That'll take ~7.75 days. Tech 2 Cruise Launchers is 18.75 days. Of course, I should train weapon (and advanced) upgrades anyway, so it's not a big factor. But, 18.75 days is quite some time to invest (for me) for something marginal. Then again, that time could also go towards a Golem...(which is like, 4x longer to train for) Now that I know the cost efficiency is guaranteed, maybe I'll just flip a coin. CNR + Salvager or Golem....hmmm. I look forward to seeing any insight you can give from your personal experience in a Golem, Liang =) It'll greatly sway the time I invest in the future, lol...
Liang Nuren The Hull Miners Union Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2009.09.26 07:53:00 - [6] Well my first impression is that people are lying out their ass when they say dual painter torps from a Golem instapop cruisers. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
GGjita	Posted - 2009.09.26 09:34:00 - [7] Edited by: GGjita on 26/09/2009 09:35:33 Originally by: Liang Nuren Well my first impression is that people are lying out their ass when they say dual painter torps from a Golem instapop cruisers. -Liang nope, i regularly insta-pop cruisers. Mind you it is not a guarantee but it happens more often than not, you just have to have both of the TP skills trained and have all the relevant missile/ship skills also. (Faction TP's really make a difference too) Edit: Many people try the torp Golem and discount it after their first outing in it because they do not have the proper skills. Unlike a CNR which you can fly pretty effectively with all L3-4 skills to use a Golem and have it preform you need to have most skills to L5 and all the rest to at least L4. The Golem is not a ship that you can fly without the proper support skills.
stoicfaux	Posted - 2009.09.26 16:23:00 - [8] Originally by: Liang Nuren Well my first impression is that people are lying out their ass when they say dual painter torps from a Golem instapop cruisers. -Liang Popping T1 NPC cruisers in one volley is pretty consistent even with T1 or Javelin torps. It's even easier when you run with three TPs. A high skill torp Golem with 2-3 TPs can actually do the same/more damage than a rigor rigged raven/cnr with cruise missiles against cruiser sized targets. The Golem's TP bonus and explosion velocity bonus really add up.
Liang Nuren The Hull Miners Union Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2009.09.26 16:55:00 - [9] Originally by: GGjita nope, i regularly insta-pop cruisers. Mind you it is not a guarantee but it happens more often than not, you just have to have both of the TP skills trained and have all the relevant missile/ship skills also. (Faction TP's really make a difference too) Edit: Many people try the torp Golem and discount it after their first outing in it because they do not have the proper skills. Unlike a CNR which you can fly pretty effectively with all L3-4 skills to use a Golem and have it preform you need to have most skills to L5 and all the rest to at least L4. The Golem is not a ship that you can fly without the proper support skills. I didn't realize that max skills outside of Marauders 5 wasn't good enough support skills. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Arthur Frayn V.O.F.L IRON CORE H E L I C O N	Posted - 2009.09.26 17:07:00 - [10] Edited by: Arthur Frayn on 26/09/2009 17:17:24 I say use faction launchers for cruise and heavy missiles, and here's why: You need all the range you can get with the heavy assault and torpedo launchers. To that end, you need long range t2 missiles. You'll have a big smile on your face when you hit a target with torpedoes from 65km away like the good old days. Heavy and cruise launchers are a different story: they do not need t2 ammo at all. The t2 high damage or precision ammo for heavy and cruise missiles are garbage compared to faction ammo. Also faction launchers have a slightly higher rate of fire than t2 launchers even with max skills so you will get better total damage. If you have the cash to burn and are using heavy or cruise launchers, I say go with cantion launchers/ -- Eventus stultorum magister.
Liang Nuren The Hull Miners Union Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2009.09.26 17:15:00 - [11] Originally by: Arthur Frayn Heavy and cruise launchers are a different story: they do not need t2 ammo at all. The t2 high damage or precision ammo for heavy and cruise missiles are garbage compared to faction ammo. Also faction launchers have a slightly higher rate of fire than t2 launchers even with max skills so you will get better total damage. If you have the cash to burn and are using heavy or cruise launchers, I say go with cantion launchers/ You're utterly wrong about Fury. CN Paradise = 656 damage/missile. Paradise Fury = 730 damage per missile. If you fit your ship correctly, you still deal full damage with Fury to BS and BC. And you're really hitting cruisers hard (but you should use T1 or faction ammo here). Conclusion: Fury for BS/BC because you're a blasted idiot if you don't use it, and T1/Faction for cruisers. I found faction helps against the cruisers but it's by no means a requirement at two volleying them. For reference, Raven with 6 Cruise II / Fury = 650 missile DPS. CN Cruise with faction ammo = 601 missile DPS. Including reload time (because faction launchers have more capacity): 616 vs 572. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Shaemell Buttleson Euphoria Released	Posted - 2009.09.26 17:24:00 - [12] Originally by: Liang Nuren Well my first impression is that people are lying out their ass when they say dual painter torps from a Golem instapop cruisers. -Liang This! I've been using a CNR with CN launchers + CN missiles and 4 CN BCU's for about 6 months now. Because I don't loot and salvage it is much quicker than my max skilled mates in their Golems. I don't do and can't do the maths like Liang but have run side by side with mates on the same rats etc and beaten them hands down. I'm going to try T2 launchers now with Fury cruise and the rigs suggested and see what it's like for comparison. However if PPL want the loot and salvage stick to Golems because mates of mine make more in the long run doing this than me just killing everything but then again I don't want to run missons as much as them.
Arthur Frayn V.O.F.L IRON CORE H E L I C O N	Posted - 2009.09.26 17:30:00 - [13] Edited by: Arthur Frayn on 26/09/2009 17:33:44 Originally by: Liang Nuren You're utterly wrong about Fury. CN Paradise = 656 damage/missile. Paradise Fury = 730 damage per missile. If you fit your ship correctly, you still deal full damage with Fury to BS and BC. And you're really hitting cruisers hard (but you should use T1 or faction ammo here). -Liang Ahh I stand corrected. And it seems the only real drawback to fury is the increased sig radius on your ship. I'd still choose siege launchers with Javelins over fury in my Golem. But fury on a CNR might be worth a look.. Edit: The explosion velocity on wrath furies is so damn close to torps anyway that it seems like little point in using them outside target painter range at anything smaller than a BC(wrath precision, durrrr). I'd rather afterburn there in with torps and painters. -- Eventus stultorum magister.
Liang Nuren The Hull Miners Union Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2009.09.26 18:14:00 - [14] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 26/09/2009 18:22:46 Originally by: stoicfaux Popping T1 NPC cruisers in one volley is pretty consistent even with T1 or Javelin torps. It's even easier when you run with three TPs. A high skill torp Golem with 2-3 TPs can actually do the same/more damage than a rigor rigged raven/cnr with cruise missiles against cruiser sized targets. The Golem's TP bonus and explosion velocity bonus really add up. Alright, so here's running the numbers. I'll assume EFT has the right damage formula. Golem Fit: 4 Siege II (Jav) CN XL, 3 Hardener II, 3 RF TP 4 CN BCU 2 Thruster HG Crystals, ZMT2000, ZML1000, ZMS1000, ZMM1000 Target = Gistum Centurion (Sig 140) EHP = 5443 Explosive EFT Target = Rupture, 2 Thukker MSE (Sig 140) Missile DPS = 864 DPS on target = 481 DPS Ratio = 481/864, 0.55671296296296296296296296296296 Volley damage = 6471 Eff Volley Damage = 3603 3603 < 5443 I honestly don't see how you're instapopping cruisers with Javs, even with no real tank, 3 faction TPs, max skills, and 5% implants. And with 2 PWNAGE, we see: DPS Ratio = 355 / 864, 0.41087962962962962962962962962963 Eff Volley Damage = 2658 Which means you're three volleying that cruiser. Much more consistent with what I was seeing last night. Amusingly, a Cruise Golem with faction missiles will deal full damage to that cruiser with 2 PWNAGE, which means a volley damage of 5513 - which is enough to instapop the cruiser. -Liang Ed: Quite a few edits here. Added in comparison with 2 PWNAGE intstead of 3 RF TP, and the Cruise Golem. -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Drake Storm Caldari Imperial Privateers	Posted - 2009.09.26 21:08:00 - [15] Don't forget Fury Cruise missiles have an explosion velocity of 58 m/s compared to 69 m/s of faction missiles. Tech 1 torpedo's have an exp velocity of 71 m/s. I have ran many many missions in a CNR and in general faction missiles outperform furies even on battleships. You need web drones to get the full damage even on a battleship because the explosion velocity is so horrid. You sill notice this significantly on Angel BS since they are so fast. Not to say furies don't have their place I just have found them to be not that effective even with rigor rigs and a target painter. I stick to tech 1 or faction and use the tech 2 launchers because they are cheap.
Liang Nuren The Hull Miners Union Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2009.09.26 21:38:00 - [16] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 26/09/2009 21:38:52 Originally by: Drake Storm Don't forget Fury Cruise missiles have an explosion velocity of 58 m/s compared to 69 m/s of faction missiles. Tech 1 torpedo's have an exp velocity of 71 m/s. I didn't forget that. Quote: I have ran many many missions in a CNR and in general faction missiles outperform furies even on battleships. You need web drones to get the full damage even on a battleship because the explosion velocity is so horrid. You sill notice this significantly on Angel BS since they are so fast. No you don't. Try 3 rigors and a painter. Quote: Not to say furies don't have their place I just have found them to be not that effective even with rigor rigs and a target painter. I stick to tech 1 or faction and use the tech 2 launchers because they are cheap. 3 rigors, painter, full all the way down to the smallest of BCs. Yes, it really works. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
AnEwok	Posted - 2009.09.26 22:03:00 - [17] Edited by: AnEwok on 26/09/2009 22:04:02 Definately an informative argument to read, glad it was posted =P Please do keep it going, this is easily distracting me from the boredom at work, lol. Evefit tells me that T2 Launcher/Ammo will surpass Faction Launcher/Ammo when specialization reaches 2. Not sure I have it set correctly, but that's just what I'm getting. So for ~18.5 days (I have Cruise at 4), I can have a DPS increase (I include Cruise 5 for both Faction + T2 Launchers) + 1/3 ammo cost (compared to faction ammo in my region, ha). If you have a salvager to clean up behind you, it seems this would be a better isk/hour maker compared to the golem from what I'm reading here. Of course, that requires 2 accounts to keep it comparable (if you want to keep it quick and consistent...I borrow my friends newb account to salvage mine =P). There is the mention of a better tank on the Golem...but, is that neccisary? The CNR takes the beating just fine, and normally kills crap outside the enemies ideal range, taking care of a good portion of incoming DPS. I can see the Golem being a better ship to fly with a solo-account, being versatile in DPS, salvaging and cargo space. Also you get to see pretty numbers on BS's. (Guess I'm sneaking in a CNR vrs Golem debate inside the main topic too) As for the topic question, I think I can rest assured that T2 Launcher/Ammo is the better money maker. Compared to the time it takes to properly train/fit a Golem, for what Isk/hour it has to offer, I'll probably settle for the ~18.5 days instead. Now, if the Golem made twice as much isk/hour as the CNR + Salvager, I can see the training being worthwhile =P Thanks again for the informative discussion too. -Anewok
Manu Hermanus FaDoyToy	Posted - 2009.09.27 00:57:00 - [18] Originally by: Liang Nuren Gistum fair enough, the hacs take 2 volleys, although they usually end up inside faction missile range. ah well, guess 2 or 3 volleying bs makes up for it. and yes a bit amusing that the faction cruise will instapop it though. You're posting again!? Has it really been 5 mins?
Liang Nuren The Hull Miners Union Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2009.09.27 01:12:00 - [19] Originally by: Manu Hermanus Originally by: Liang Nuren Gistum fair enough, the hacs take 2 volleys, although they usually end up inside faction missile range. ah well, guess 2 or 3 volleying bs makes up for it. and yes a bit amusing that the faction cruise will instapop it though. HAC = ARCH GISTUM -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Manu Hermanus FaDoyToy	Posted - 2009.09.27 01:17:00 - [20] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Manu Hermanus Originally by: Liang Nuren Gistum fair enough, the hacs take 2 volleys, although they usually end up inside faction missile range. ah well, guess 2 or 3 volleying bs makes up for it. and yes a bit amusing that the faction cruise will instapop it though. HAC = ARCH GISTUM -Liang oh rly am I failing again dunno don't shoot angels much You're posting again!? Has it really been 5 mins?
stoicfaux	Posted - 2009.09.27 03:55:00 - [21] Originally by: Liang Nuren I honestly don't see how you're instapopping cruisers with Javs, even with no real tank, 3 faction TPs, max skills, and 5% implants. Here's a spreadsheet I did that allows you compare golems, CNRs, target painters, and NPC ship stats: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1151130 Insta-popping cruisers normally only occurs against slower, low bounty type NPCs. Velocity plays a big part in the missile damage formulas, so Angel cruisers are not going to be insta-popped too often. I've definitely done it against low-end Gurista and Blood Raiders cruisers since I normally use Javelins to kill cruisers at long range while letting the BCs and BSes get into 40km ran. Yes, insta-popping happens, but it only happens against the slower, lower bounty cruisers. You will not be insta-popping all t1 NPC cruisers. My apologies for not being clear. Back to the OP: With a Centurion at orbit velocity, here are the raw (before resistances) Volley and DPS numbers for various missile setups: Torp Golem 3xTP javelin: 3,382.5 volley and 484.1 DPS (52.3% of max damage) 3xTP torp: 3,816.8 volley and 546.2 DPS (53.1% of max damage) 3xTP CN torp: 4,385.1 volley and 627.6 DPS (53.1% of max damage) CNR- 3x Rigor, Cruise CNR 1xTP cruise: 3,094.0 volley and 496.8 DPS (73.8% of max damage) 1xTP CN ammo: 3,558.1 and 571.4 DPS (73.8% of max damage) 3xTP CN ammo: 4,823.6 and 774.6 DPS (100% damage) Golem CN, 2xRigors: 2xTP t1 ammo: 4,793.6 volley and 577.3 DPS (100% damage) 2xTP CN Ammo: 5,512.6 volley and 663.9 DPS (100% damage) Against a Pith Exterminator at orbit velocity (big, slow battleship): 0xTP Golem Cruise II Fury, 2xRigors: 6,135.8 volley and 718.5 DPS (100% damage) 0xTP Golem Torp: 7,190.4 volley and 1,029.4 DPS (100% damage) As you can see, a 3xTP Torp Golem can do as much damage to a cruiser as a 1xTP CNR and can come close to matching a CN Cruise Golem. Add in that torps will do significantly more damage to battleships than Fury cruise missiles, and now you know why a Torp Golem is better than a Cruise Golem.
Jukhta Mein Independent Traders and Builders MPA	Posted - 2009.09.27 04:00:00 - [22] I've tried T2 cruise furys on Angel BS and they do slightly less damage than T1 normal cruise missiles. This was done on a CNR with a target painter, 2 rigors and 1 flare. Same goes for battlecruisers.
Jukhta Mein Independent Traders and Builders MPA	Posted - 2009.09.27 04:00:00 - [23] Edited by: Jukhta Mein on 27/09/2009 04:03:37 Double post sorry
Drake Storm Caldari Imperial Privateers	Posted - 2009.09.27 13:06:00 - [24] Well to be fair I was only using 2 rigors and 1 TP on my CNR. Could be that Angel BS/BC are the exception here since they are so much faster. I do agree though that the damage on furies can be very nice. I have fitted 5 hobgoblin IIs and 2 heavy web drones just to get the most out of them. If web drones weren't so slow it would be even more effective. :) I will have to test it out again with the 3rd rigor rig to see if it works better. Also the one annoying thing about some Sansha BS is that once they get into a certain range they AB away from you. Once they do that you will see the damage drop. Not saying anyone is wrong but in my general experience I still feel using faction or tech I is easier and less hassle. I didn't like switching out between fury and tech I for cruisers.
GGjita	Posted - 2009.09.27 13:59:00 - [25] liang, I did enjoy how you ran the number for killing cruisers with torps using Jav's Now try doing it again with either normal T1 ammo or faction ammo. I say this because no one should be shooting a cruiser with Jav's. If there are ships farther out than 40 km that need killing while things get in range you'll be shooting the BC's first since they are cake to insta pop and you don't really need to loot/salvage them. Then you hit the BS's and save the cruisers for last since you want your drones to do as much as possible while you kill the rest, not to mention it gives you time to loot/salv the rest of the BS while you finish off cruisers. And this may be one of those times where the out of game theory just doesn't line up with what actually happens in game, because i've been insta-popping cruisers in my golem now for about 4 months.
stoicfaux	Posted - 2009.09.27 15:39:00 - [26] Originally by: GGjita liang, I did enjoy how you ran the number for killing cruisers with torps using Jav's Now try doing it again with either normal T1 ammo or faction ammo. I say this because no one should be shooting a cruiser with Jav's. If there are ships farther out than 40 km that need killing while things get in range you'll be shooting the BC's first since they are cake to insta pop and you don't really need to loot/salvage them. Then you hit the BS's and save the cruisers for last since you want your drones to do as much as possible while you kill the rest, not to mention it gives you time to loot/salv the rest of the BS while you finish off cruisers. I disagree. BCs provide better salvage than Cruisers, so you might as well pop the cruisers with javs. And in my experience, I'm normally waiting for my drones to finish killing frigs, so I don't rely on drones to kill cruisers or larger ships. And on those rare times that my drones are chewing on a cruiser, its much faster to pop the cruiser with torps. I normally finish salvaging BS/BCs about the same time that I finish shooting, so I find there's no real time gain in leaving the cruisers for drones. Quote: And this may be one of those times where the out of game theory just doesn't line up with what actually happens in game, because i've been insta-popping cruisers in my golem now for about 4 months. When you're insta-popping cruisers, are you using faction or t1 torps?
GGjita	Posted - 2009.09.27 16:06:00 - [27] Originally by: stoicfaux I disagree. BCs provide better salvage than Cruisers, so you might as well pop the cruisers with javs. And in my experience, I'm normally waiting for my drones to finish killing frigs, so I don't rely on drones to kill cruisers or larger ships. And on those rare times that my drones are chewing on a cruiser, its much faster to pop the cruiser with torps. I normally finish salvaging BS/BCs about the same time that I finish shooting, so I find there's no real time gain in leaving the cruisers for drones. You are right in that BC's provide better salvage than cruisers, but I normally have the mission finished before i finish salvaging all the BS wrecks so i don't ever get to them anyway. If your a faster salvager than me (which is very possible) then throwing jav's at cruisers works (and yes they still can insta-pop them it is just not as consistant). Originally by: stoicfaux When you're insta-popping cruisers, are you using faction or t1 torps? I used to use T1 and i still do if there are a lot of cruisers left and i can switch to them without having to waste a reload but i normally just use CN since that is what i normally have loaded after I finish killing the BS's. Of late though i just carry CN and Jav's, occasionally i'll grab some rage if there is a structure to take out.
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2009.09.27 16:44:00 - [28] Furys will give you decent dps boost over t1 missiles. - imo worth using - and i dont think its good idea to use faction missiles for pve with 7 rof bonused launchers... But tbh, i think hml tengu /proper fit with rigors and furys/ made cruise cnr obsolete. Tengu has a little bit less dps, but has MUCH better dmg projection and is more comfortable to use. The only advantages of cnr are damage selection /rof instead of kin bonus/ and possibility to lock 7+ targets /5 locks for tengu was real issue for me/.
comrade captain	Posted - 2009.09.27 17:45:00 - [29] Just to add, i can pop cruisers and bcs in 1 volley with all level 5 skills and a 5% torp damage hardwiring implant in my golem, i have 2 republic fleet target painters which give 55% sig radius bonus and all the painting skills at level 5, every now and again one will have a slight amount of structure left so i have to send 1 more torp at them but that very rarely happens.
stoicfaux	Posted - 2009.09.27 18:49:00 - [30] Edited by: stoicfaux on 27/09/2009 18:49:14 I've updated my Missile Damage versus Target Ship spreadsheet to include a Volley Damage column. It includes a bunch of CNR/Golem for CN Cruise, Cruise II, and Siege II launchers with Javelins, CN ammo, Fury, T1 ammo, etc.. It also has a couple of Tengu HAM profiles. http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1151130&page=1 Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 But tbh, i think hml tengu /proper fit with rigors and furys/ made cruise cnr obsolete. Tengu has a little bit less dps, but has MUCH better dmg projection and is more comfortable to use. The only advantages of cnr are damage selection /rof instead of kin bonus/ and possibility to lock 7+ targets /5 locks for tengu was real issue for me/. On a related note, on paper, a Tengu Kinetic HAM is pretty sick. Even against BS sized targets it can compete with a Torp Golem's DPS.

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